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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "I don't want a funeral or any kind of service"
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You have not explained why it matters to a person who no longer exists and why treating their wishes is a better moral choice than dealing with people who still do.
What exactly are you saying when you say they no longer exist? You mean at the instance of their death they just wink out of being completely, there is no afterlife, no presence in Heaven, no discarnate spirit, no nothing, just complete annihilation with merely an empty uninhabited corpse left as a reminder?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
For those who say that the deceased's wishes are paramount; what would they do if they were me? Dad is very much alive and has stipulated this eight people in a room scenario. I have told him I think he is being unfair, to stipulate that my mother must not have the support of her brother, to whom she is close, and I must not have the support of my cousin.
My mother has told Dad that she supports his wishes but has told me privately that telling her brother that he cannot attend the funeral because he is not "close family" will break her heart. I feel that she should tell Dad this, but she won't. I think that if Dad really thought about it, he would change his mind.
I have joked to Dad that if he wants to avoid fuss, he is going the wrong way about it. I envisage a massive fuss as people are told they aren't "close" enough to attend the funeral. I expect to be fielding phone calls from all and sundry, who will assume that there has been some falling-out, some gossip, some story behind the "only 8 people" funeral.
Of course, I might be worrying about nothing. Possibly Mum is agreeing with Dad now but has absolutely no intention of following his wishes.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
For those who say that the deceased's wishes are paramount; what would they do if they were me? Dad is very much alive and has stipulated this eight people in a room scenario.
I'd do it. I'd have the eight people in the room at the funeral home and everybody who wanted to come would be welcome at the graveside for the actual burial (or scattering of ashes), and for a wake/reception afterwards with speeches and reminiscences welcome.
On a purely practical note, you can only fit so many people into a room in a funeral home at one time and you are not usually there for long.
Your father may, of course, change his mind nearer the time. People do. Unless he's specified his wishes in his will things can still change.
[ 07. August 2016, 18:22: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Dad has specified no wake, no reception and the same eight people only at the graveside.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I have been to two funerals at the funeral home Dad plans. They have two rooms; the larger holds easily 100 people, I think the smaller holds about 30.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
For those who say that the deceased's wishes are paramount; what would they do if they were me? ...
My mother has told Dad that she supports his wishes but has told me privately that telling her brother that he cannot attend the funeral because he is not "close family" will break her heart. I feel that she should tell Dad this, but she won't. I think that if Dad really thought about it, he would change his mind.
I have joked to Dad that if he wants to avoid fuss, he is going the wrong way about it. I envisage a massive fuss as people are told they aren't "close" enough to attend the funeral. I expect to be fielding phone calls from all and sundry, who will assume that there has been some falling-out, some gossip, some story behind the "only 8 people" funeral.
Of course, I might be worrying about nothing. Possibly Mum is agreeing with Dad now but has absolutely no intention of following his wishes.
I don't think they're paramount, but if you can bring yourself to do it (or if your mother can), I'd tell him honestly that you foresee a huge amount of hurt feelings and family feuding, and if he still insists on going through with this, he personally needs to notify the people-to-be-left-out about what he wants (namely, that they be left out) and deal with the fall-out himself. It would be far better for him to do this while living (yeah, yeah, I know I'm in total fantasy-land here, there's not a person in a thousand willing to do that), but the next best thing would be a handwritten signed statement saying that he is insisting upon this (this to be spelt out) and that you-all have no choice in the matter.
The best-case scenario would be that he hears this and suddenly realizes the shitstorm he's letting you in for--and bends. But if not, at least you'd have something to photocopy and hand out along with your personal "We wouldn't have done it this way, but..."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In my opinion, it is selfish of the person to decree that their survivors may not meet together to remember them. It's disrespectful to the needs of the living. It's spitting in their faces to say, "when I am gone, I am still going to forbid you from doing what you want. I am going to prevent you from using our society's most common form of seeking closure and insist you do it some other way. Fuck you."
Supposing the deceased had been brought up in a particular religious tradition, suffered at the hands of it, absolutely hated it, but the rest of the family had not had that experience and still firmly believed in it. Suppose that relationships had been strained with some family members because of it.
Suppose also that the deceased had been quite adamant that s/he would not have a funeral from that tradition. And suppose that the family were equally adamant that the deceased had to have it because the person had clearly misinterpreted the tradition during their lifetime/been unreasonable/would go to Hell if they didn't get a proper funeral (i.e. in the family tradition). And that no secular alternative or anything but a funeral in the specified tradition would be acceptable.
Would you still think it selfish of the deceased not to want a funeral?
We live in a society that has rituals to help us let go of our dead. It doesn't really matter which one, but most of us need them, usually it is the one that means something to us. If a relative has such a bad experience then you can do it differently, they can specify don't have and X or Y funeral - but to say you can't have anything yes is selfish and controlling.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
I don't see why the deceased has to know to be disrespected. I don't understand your view, lilBuddha, that the dead can't be disrespected.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
...the next best thing would be a handwritten signed statement saying that he is insisting upon this (this to be spelt out) and that you-all have no choice in the matter.
I agree, because that might be one way of making him focus on the issue. Get him to work on it in detail. Once you have it in writing, you can then legitimately pass the buck.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
For those who say that the deceased's wishes are paramount; what would they do if they were me? Dad is very much alive and has stipulated this eight people in a room scenario. I have told him I think he is being unfair, to stipulate that my mother must not have the support of her brother, to whom she is close, and I must not have the support of my cousin.
My mother has told Dad that she supports his wishes but has told me privately that telling her brother that he cannot attend the funeral because he is not "close family" will break her heart. I feel that she should tell Dad this, but she won't.
I tend to agree with Lamb Chopped that the deceased's wishes are not paramount, and I think her advice is good. But frankly, given what you've said, I think I'd tell him myself that mom is going along with him to support him, but that you know how hard it will be for her not to have her brother there supporting her. Same with you and your cousin.
I think I'd be tempted to tell him you're sorry, but you can't do things exactly like he wishes, and please don't ask you to. I'd tell him he can trust you to keep things like he would want them—no fuss, no clergy, no religion, etc.—but that you will need to have the support of some people beyond his other 6 to get through it.
Of course, I say all of that without knowing your dad, so I may be way, way off.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You have not explained why it matters to a person who no longer exists and why treating their wishes is a better moral choice than dealing with people who still do.
What exactly are you saying when you say they no longer exist? You mean at the instance of their death they just wink out of being completely, there is no afterlife, no presence in Heaven, no discarnate spirit, no nothing, just complete annihilation with merely an empty uninhabited corpse left as a reminder?
That would seem to be what Susan Doris, an avowed atheist, believes happens.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
... But when the request goes beyond "No funeral" to "not any kind of service" (meaning no memorial service) then I object. The deceased has no right to insist on that. For the reasons stated above. Because I hate repeating myself.
So how do you feel about the Mormon practice of posthumously baptizing dead Jews? Do the Jews have the right to insist on that not happening?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
What exactly are you saying when you say they no longer exist? You mean at the instance of their death they just wink out of being completely, there is no afterlife, no presence in Heaven, no discarnate spirit, no nothing, just complete annihilation with merely an empty uninhabited corpse left as a reminder?
My comment was addressed to Susan Doris whose POV suggests no belief in anything after death.
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
I don't see why the deceased has to know to be disrespected. I don't understand your view, lilBuddha, that the dead can't be disrespected.
M.
It would depend on your POV, I suppose.
From an atheist* POV, they cease to exist in any way, shape or form. So there is nothing to disrespect.
Buddhism** does not believe in the existence of a soul, per se. So, again, there is nothing to disrespect.
Christianity teaches an all-loving, all-knowing God. Such a God would know the state of a person's soul and would not need reminding. Such a God would love that soul and would not need cajoling to accept it into Heaven. So respect or disrespect in a Christian context is irrelevant to the soul of the deceased.
M, can you explain to me exactly what effect you think disrespect would have to the deceased?
*Well, most. Probably. There are some who would call themselves atheist but spiritual.
**Buddhist practice varies, so I will not speak for all adherents, but it doesn't fit with the Buddha's words.
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
So how do you feel about the Mormon practice of posthumously baptizing dead Jews? Do the Jews have the right to insist on that not happening?
That is disrespectful to the living Jews.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I think we need to respect their memory.
Whatever we believe happens to them after death, mere dust or glorious Angel or something else, it doesn't matter. The thing which really lives on is the memory of them, so we should respect this.
If their wish was no funeral, then no funeral. Find another way to mark their passing of which they would have approved.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
lilBuddha, I couldn't put it better than Boogie has. I don't think it has anything to do with whether the person knows or not or whether it has an effect on them. I don't understand why you think it has to. It's nothing to do with whether you think a person is extinguished or lives on in some other form.
It seems a very simple matter of doing what someone specifically requests or ignoring that wish. Particularly if you say you want to remember someone or grieve for them and then purport to do it by ignoring their wishes.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
... But when the request goes beyond "No funeral" to "not any kind of service" (meaning no memorial service) then I object. The deceased has no right to insist on that. For the reasons stated above. Because I hate repeating myself.
So how do you feel about the Mormon practice of posthumously baptizing dead Jews? Do the Jews have the right to insist on that not happening?
They posthumously baptise anyone so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven - but it's up the dead person whether or not they accept the Baptism.
I think it's a bit meh. My sister has been doing our family history. Anyone who does this will eventually end up at the Mormon record office in East Grinstead. Their belief in baptising the dead means they're THE source for geological info.
Most of our lot have been baptised. As some of them were staunch Anglicans, others Catholics and others atheists, they would not be impressed by the idea of being baptised a Mormon.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I think I will have to ask you to say why I have not explained it. I think my position is based on the fact that I would do what I hope others would do were the positions reversed, and I think this position is based on basic, good morals.
You have not explained why it matters to a person who no longer exists and why treating their wishes is a better moral choice than dealing with people who still do.
From my atheist point of view, whatever the living do certainly has no effect whatsoever on, and matters not at all to the deadperson. Of those who believe in anything after death I do not know how many also believe that the dead person will know what is going on in their name. It would be interesting to hear how believers consider this question.
As for it being a better moral choice to comply with the dead person’s expressed wishes, then we are talking about the conscience of the living who must take personal responsibility for their actions, are we not.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think we need to respect their memory.
Any need or desire resides within the living. That memory is ours.
Any relationship we have with people is two-way. Do you respect and love your husband and son by acceeding to their every wish and they no thought of you?
Most funerals and memorials I've attended were shaped, at least in part, by the deceased. By their desire or by what the living knew of them. But this is still for the living. This is still a ritual of grief that that those still alive need.
Why is it more loving to acquiesce to the one who no longer has any wants instead of the mental wellbeing of the many who still do?
And if a person has generated such feeling in others that they wish to mourn them, then not gathering is paying service to their words instead of honouring who they actually were.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I wonder if I may add a somewhat tangential question? If not suitable for this thread, I could ask it separately.
How obliged do you feel to attend a funeral? I mention this because, being in the age group I am, I more regularly hear people say something like, 'I/we have to go to a funeral...' Personally, I do not feel under any obligation to attend and have not attended several because of the complications of getting there and, in my case, being a bit of a problem, needing guiding all the time.
Most of my friends are in my age group and any one of us could be the next one to go. Depending on circumstances, I know that their families will quite understand mydeclining to attend some funerals.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
As for it being a better moral choice to comply with the dead person’s expressed wishes, then we are talking about the conscience of the living who must take personal responsibility for their actions, are we not.
You claim to bow to the rational, and yet you take a position that is not.
The only reason to bow to the words of a person who no longer exists is that it might help the grieving process of those who still do.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Most of our lot have been baptised. As some of them were staunch Anglicans, others Catholics and others atheists, they would not be impressed by the idea of being baptised a Mormon.
The problem comes in when it's not Anglicans but Jews being baptised. Christians have been oppressing, killing, torturing, and genociding Jews for 1600 years. Among the oppressions felt strongly by the Jews is the Christian message that they're not good enough for G-d. That they need to accept Christian baptism to be in good standing with their own G-d.
Now add into this mix Mormons, an offshoot of Christianity if not part of it (depending on whom you ask), baptizing dead Jews without permission because otherwise they won't be saved. In a sense it has nothing to do with the dead person being baptised, and everything to do with every dead Jew since Constantine that the Christians have murdered or tortured, and the memory of them carried by all the living Jews.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Dad has specified no wake, no reception and the same eight people only at the graveside.
Ay up North East. If I may be familiar. Let him specify what the hell he likes, agree to ALL of it with a solemn vow and a blood signature.
And THEN do what the HELL you like. The dead don't own themselves.
So, are you of a certain philosopher's family or do you come with your own source code?
[ 08. August 2016, 17:58: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Or he could inform himself, the 8 he wants present and more importantly those he does not want present,
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Or he could inform himself, the 8 he wants present and more importantly those he does not want present,
Perfect! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
So how do you feel about the Mormon practice of posthumously baptizing dead Jews? Do the Jews have the right to insist on that not happening? [QB] [QUOTE]They posthumously baptise anyone so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven - but it's up the dead person whether or not they accept the Baptism.
I think it's a bit meh...
Most of our lot have been baptised. As some of them were staunch Anglicans, others Catholics and others atheists, they would not be impressed by the idea of being baptised a Mormon.
Not unlike the OP request, my husband has strongly requested our Mormon daughter not posthumously baptize him. I, otoh, despite believing it absolute rubbish, think that if she doesn't baptize me that indicates she has no desire to see me in the hereafter...
[ 08. August 2016, 19:37: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
sorry... messed up the html and couldn't fix it before window closed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
To clear up a couple of technical points:
1. Several mentions up-thread of funeral/burial/whatever instructions 'in the will.' That doesn't work, as wills are typically not probated until some time after funeral/burial/whatever. One needs to leave specific, written instructions, BUT NOT IN THE WILL. BTW, at least in the US, after one's death the body is the property of the next of kin. (Ref: 'The American Way of Death.')
2. Mormons are big on acquiring genealogical info, but their data bases cannot be used to prove legal descent, as they require no documentation or proof for the data they enter. (Their interest is entirely related to their singular baptismal doctrine.)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think we need to respect their memory.
Any need or desire resides within the living. That memory is ours.
Any relationship we have with people is two-way. Do you respect and love your husband and son by acceeding to their every wish and they no thought of you?
Most funerals and memorials I've attended were shaped, at least in part, by the deceased. By their desire or by what the living knew of them. But this is still for the living. This is still a ritual of grief that that those still alive need.
Why is it more loving to acquiesce to the one who no longer has any wants instead of the mental wellbeing of the many who still do?
And if a person has generated such feeling in others that they wish to mourn them, then not gathering is paying service to their words instead of honouring who they actually were.
The memory is ours. That includes the memory of their wishes regarding a funeral. Knowing that we went against their strongly held wishes won't generate peace for anyone.
There are other ways of marking, mourning or celebrating a person's life/death without holding a funeral/wake etc.
I would be creative. Plant a tree, build a garden, hold a fundraiser for their favourite charity, take their ashes to a special place. There are endless things that can be done to help the grieving. Knowing we went against their heartfelt wishes wouldn't be one of them imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Does anyone know of actual churchgoers who refuse to have a funeral? What has their reasoning been?
Sure, many of my congregants have said something like that. Lots of different reasons: some deplore the expense or the formality, some dislike the somber tone. And I find many laity don't know the difference between a "funeral" and a "memorial" and don't like the idea of their dead body being on display.
In all these cases it has more to do with a very specific idea about what a "funeral" entails so the deceased-to-be is generally open to creative alternatives such as we've discussed here.
Disliking the 'sombre tone' is interesting. In the UK there's a trend for funerals - even in the CofE - to be 'joyful' events. Not everyone appreciates the development, but it appears to be a strong feature of contemporary British life.
I assume that religious people in the UK are less likely to be a part of this trend because they've been acculturated to traditional church rituals and music through churchgoing. Demographic and psychological factors may also mark a distinction between what churchgoers and nonchurchgoers deem to be acceptable for a funeral.
In terms of expense, most British Christians, like British people in general, are likely to be cremated, which is cheaper than being buried.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Or he could inform himself, the 8 he wants present and more importantly those he does not want present,
Perfect!
I think that would create the fuss he is so keen to avoid! In fairness to Dad he has always said that he doesn't want a big funeral, and I've always agreed. Its only recently that he has thought further and decided the details of his funeral. I love my dad and he knows my views on his eight people plan. The snag is that my mother has told me she's not happy, but she hasn't told him that. I think if she told him he was being unfeeling he'd change his mind. It could be that mum has no intention of complying with his wishes and my angst is pointless!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Disliking the 'sombre tone' is interesting. In the UK there's a trend for funerals - even in the CofE - to be 'joyful' events. Not everyone appreciates the development, but it appears to be a strong feature of contemporary British life.
I assume that religious people in the UK are less likely to be a part of this trend because they've been acculturated to traditional church rituals and music through churchgoing. Demographic and psychological factors may also mark a distinction between what churchgoers and nonchurchgoers deem to be acceptable for a funeral.
hmmm... I would expect the exact opposite. In the US anyway, the "celebratory" funeral is often associated with the gospel message of resurrection. Sometimes it goes to far, as if Christians don't suffer and grieve like everyone else, or the fact that you're loved one is "in a better place" should somehow mean you're not sad. But overall, at least here, the trend has come more from religious people than non-religious.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The thing is that the deceased made plans while alive. If you want to tell them that you're going to ignore their wishes and do what they don't want because that's what you want to do, go ahead. It seems rather selfish but hey, you are the position to judge their desires are based on a legitimate desire to avoid these people or some unworthy purpose. Me, I'd just do what they wanted.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Another thing is, though, that lots of people say "Oh, I don't want a funeral" and when you probe, you find out they are a) just being modest and/or b) testing to find out whether you will object and thus prove you really care, or c) thinking purely of the financial aspects of it and not the emotional costs or benefits to survivors. I'm thinking here of my mother, who says airily, "Oh, just cremate me as cheaply as you can and pour my ashes over a rose bush." Um, yeah, Mom. That's not what you did for your parents, and you were the one with the decision-making power in those cases. Nor does it make any sense--what freaking rose bush did you have in mind? Because the only one at home is in a pot, and I can tell you right now I don't intend to have your ashes sitting right there under the kitchen window. Plus ashes have a certain bulk, color, and composition to them, and don't just magically vanish into the environment overnight when placed in a single spot that a squirrel may dig up later (don't ask me how I know this). And I'm fairly sure the cemeteries around here that accept ashes won't accept them poured over a random rose bush (none of which they will have, anyway--everybody round there does nothing but greenery).
As a result, every time she says something like this, I take it to mean "Oh, don't bother about little ole me." Which is bullshit. If she were actually serious about these wishes, she'd answer my freaking questions on the subject with concrete answers instead of dancing around with "you know, there's no need for that," and "whatever rose bush, anything will do" and "you know you don't have to go to any trouble." It makes me want to yank my hair out.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Or he could inform himself, the 8 he wants present and more importantly those he does not want present,
Perfect!
I think that would create the fuss he is so keen to avoid!
He'd only be avoiding it by dying and not being around to face it!
Tell him that. Ask him to write down his wishes in detail, with reasons and to invite replies. Then email it to everyone concerned. That way he'll be able to sort out his own small funeral, without you having to endlessly explain.
Then, if there happen to be 10 rather than 8 present at the actual occasion, will anyone really mind?
Personally I think death is rather like birth, in that what we think will bother or upset us doesn't, but other unexpected things do.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Or better still - show him this thread ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
As someone who officiates at a lot of funerals I tend to go along with what the family wants; even if my heart sinks at some of the requests. My concern is to provide support to the living. Only rarely do I draw the line and refuse to co-operate. Such as the time recently when I buried a suicide and the family wanted to play a recording of " I did it my way".
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I have been thinking about this a lot, and I have come to the conclusion that in my mind there are definitely two different aspects to the events immediately after death, and I feel differently about them.
The first is the religious aspect.. funeral rites of whatever faith the departed practiced, if any. I think that should definitely be up to the departed if they have any preference, and if that preference can be accommodated. Most religious ceremonies have some element of helping the deceased on his/her way to the next life, whatever that may be, and who is anyone else to say that these beliefs do not reflect the truth? if the deceased believed them, or conversely, did NOT believe them, and wanted (or didn't) that they take place, then as much as possible, that should be honored. Even if the family is very devout, and believe that without those rites the deceased is doomed to hell (or whatever), the time to discuss that is before death. their beliefs don't, I think, trump the beliefs and desires of the departed when it comes to religious practice.
But most traditions have a non-religious element to them, and of course those who do not practice a religion still may want to honor a departed loved one. These non-religious commemorations/wakes/whatever you call them, whether private or public, whether joyful or mournful, are more about the bereaved than the departed, and I dont' think the departed should have much say over how others choose to remember them. I mean, sure they can express a preference, but in the end that's all it is. One of course hopes that family and departed have similar views on how to do things, or family WANTS to do whatever the departed wanted, as a way to remember them, and that's great. but even then, what family does can't control what others do. family may not host a wake, but friends may still choose to gather at a favorite drinking hole and raise a glass in honor of the departed. the way people honor the departed is individual as well as communal, and no one can dictate how individuals will remember them after they are gone.
I do realize that in many other tradition these two events (religious ceremony/wake) can be combined, and that elements of the religious ceremony can be "customized" (favorite hymn etc.), and I honestly don't know how I feel about that, since it's so far out of my own experience (For us, the service is the service (or rather services.. there are several that usually occur), and no real room for customization. seems like it wouldn't be hard to customize a service to meet the desires of the departed, but not sure where the line is. For me the two are separate, and serve very different functions, and thus whose desires should prevail are also different.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
They posthumously baptise anyone so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven - but it's up the dead person whether or not they accept the Baptism.
I think it's a bit meh. My sister has been doing our family history. Anyone who does this will eventually end up at the Mormon record office in East Grinstead. Their belief in baptising the dead means they're THE source for geological info.
Most of our lot have been baptised. As some of them were staunch Anglicans, others Catholics and others atheists, they would not be impressed by the idea of being baptised a Mormon.
I have to say the genealogical records, which are online, have been a great help in tracing my family back as far as 1660 but they'd have hated the thought of being baptised as Mormons.
I wouldn't have thought posthumous baptism would count if there's no body and no grave. It would be like attempting to do it online.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
They posthumously baptise anyone so they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven - but it's up the dead person whether or not they accept the Baptism.
I think it's a bit meh. My sister has been doing our family history. Anyone who does this will eventually end up at the Mormon record office in East Grinstead. Their belief in baptising the dead means they're THE source for geological info.
Most of our lot have been baptised. As some of them were staunch Anglicans, others Catholics and others atheists, they would not be impressed by the idea of being baptised a Mormon.
I have to say the genealogical records, which are online, have been a great help in tracing my family back as far as 1660 but they'd have hated the thought of being baptised as Mormons.
I wouldn't have thought posthumous baptism would count if there's no body and no grave. It would be like attempting to do it online.
Even when there is a body/grave, the baptisms are done vicariously-- the Mormon friend/relative is the one getting dunked. So the presence or absence of the body is irrelevant.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I. funeral rites of whatever faith the departed practiced, if any. I think that should definitely be up to the departed if they have any preference, and if that preference can be accommodated. Most religious ceremonies have some element of helping the deceased on his/her way to the next life, whatever that may be, and who is anyone else to say that these beliefs do not reflect the truth? if the deceased believed them, or conversely, did NOT believe them, and wanted (or didn't) that they take place, then as much as possible, that should be honored. Even if the family is very devout, and believe that without those rites the deceased is doomed to hell (or whatever), the time to discuss that is before death. their beliefs don't, I think, trump the beliefs and desires of the departed when it comes to religious practice.
I guess (based on conversations upthread) it's not the majority of Christians, but for at least a significant group of Christian traditions (e.g. Reformed) have absolutely no element of "helping the deceased on his/her way to the next life"-- in fact it's specifically prohibited (wherever they're going, they're already there). The point of the funeral/memorial is, as noted above, for the living-- to provide love, care, and prayers for the grieving relatives.
This gets sticky when the departed is not religious and the grieving ones are. But I still think it's appropriate for the Christian community to come around our bereaved congregants in love and prayers, in a way that feels appropriate to the bereaved person, even if the departed thinks it's pure hokum. I do agree that funerals should never attribute faith to someone who had none, nor is this the place to speculate on the eternal destiny of a departed non-believer. But it IS a time to come around the bereaved in love and support-- and when the bereaved is a Christian, that's going to include things like Scripture and prayer. And casseroles. Lots and lots of casseroles.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
The alleged "Horror of Fuss" about funerals reminds me of CS Lewis' take on "Horror of Calories" as a form of the sin of Gluttony. Excessive focus on The Thing to be Avoided winds up creating the very thing one is trying to avoid... in this case, fuss.
IIRC the advice about Gluttony was to stop making either the intake or the avoidance such a big deal, and simply do the decent thing. Eat your food gratefully, and not too much of it, and otherwise shut up about it.
Letting your relatives do the decent thing - whatever they believe that to be, in their time and place - seems the right course of action to me. Attempts to control and avoid fuss seems to produce the exact opposite.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
My sister has been doing our family history. Anyone who does this will eventually end up at the Mormon record office in East Grinstead. Their belief in baptising the dead means they're THE source for geological info.
God was able from these stones to raise up children of the Tubbs family?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
From my atheist point of view, whatever the living do certainly has no effect whatsoever on, and matters not at all to the deadperson. Of those who believe in anything after death I do not know how many also believe that the dead person will know what is going on in their name. It would be interesting to hear how believers consider this question.
I tend to the view that the dead don't know what is going on in their name. The dead are unreachable, beyond us. We cannot know. They cannot know. They are elsewhere. In glory. In eternity. I can't imagine anyone who has passed into the Beyond would be fussing about what or what doesn't happen at their funeral. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I am overwhelmed by the finality of death. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I'd make a good atheist. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But, I am not. And I have no plans to convert to atheism any time soon. I like Jesus too much. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
How obliged do you feel to attend a funeral? I mention this because, being in the age group I am, I more regularly hear people say something like, 'I/we have to go to a funeral...' Personally, I do not feel under any obligation to attend and have not attended several because of the complications of getting there and, in my case, being a bit of a problem, needing guiding all the time.
Another good question, SusanDoris.
It's not an obligation for me to attend a close friend's funeral, but a privilege. I hope that doesn't happen again for a very long time though.
When it comes to church friends and relatives, it depends. I have felt obliged to attend the funerals of a number of relatives - but not in every case.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
imho, it is again about the living and not the dead. Your presence or absence is not likely to impact the dead much. If attending would bring comfort to you or to the bereaved family, go. If not, don't.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
]In my opinion, if that is what the person has stated that iswhat s/he wants, it would be disrespectful and/dor selfish of the living to do something different.
I'm confused. If there is no soul to continue, and thus no afterlife, how is the deceased person offended by the holding of a funeral they didn't want?
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
Fr Weber, how does disrespect suddenly turn into offend?
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Well, if there's disrespect, somebody has to be offended by it (presumably, or why would it be an issue?). I suppose some of those surviving might be offended by the dead person's wish not to be memorialized.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Even when there is a body/grave, the baptisms are done vicariously-- the Mormon friend/relative is the one getting dunked. So the presence or absence of the body is irrelevant.
I'm just trying to visualize how this works with regard to the parish registers that the LDS Church put onto their website. I suppose they must do it in batches. Otherwise I could see if the Mormon volunteer is dunked for each person to be baptized in turn, it could make for a very wet day.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
They're done in the Temple not the local wards that are open to visitors so we'll never know. But since access to a LDS Temple can be limited even for faithful Mormons by either the "bishop recommend" or geography I imagine they are lumped together for convenience. My guess is that the Mormon surrogate enters the water but once but then is dunked under once for each vicarious baptism
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Fr Weber, how does disrespect suddenly turn into offend?
M.
How does it matter, when the dead person can feel neither?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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