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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The illegitimacy (or otherwise) of manipulation
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
These things work on all sorts of levels.
I've only once been to an RC Benediction but found the experience at once quite moving and also unsettling ... I wasn't sure what to do and how to react, whether even to look at the Host in the spikey monstrance thing they used to display it for veneration. It felt a bit like the Eye of Sauron to some extent ...
But I suspect this was a tussle between my Protestant and more 'catholic' selves ...
Or a reaction in terms of knowing the theology but feeling uncomfortable with the practice.
I suspect familiarity helps with all these things. I don't feel freaked out by anyone venerating icons in Orthodox services, for instance - but then, I've been to more of those.
I once went to an Orthodox service where they were venerating the Kursk Root icon, which was here on a UK tour ...
I threw caution to the wind and venerated it and sang the Akathists - as much as I could follow them, but the chant was quite easy to pick up - but didn't do so under any sense of compulsion or feelings of tussle so much - not like Penny S feeling the 'need' to 'go forward' at the Billy Graham rally.
I suspect, in the Billy Graham case, that the prohibition from the CU acted in a kind of reverse psychology way. When we are told not to do something many of us will instinctively want to do that very thing.
With the Orthodox veneration thing, I didn't feel manipulated in the least, I took a conscious decision to get stuck in ... partly because I thought it'd feel like a waste of time if I simply stood by and watched what everyone else was doing and partly out of a sense of 'when in Rome' ...
In some strange way it did 'feel' as if I were entering something very old and very profound, tapping into hundreds of years of Russian spirituality and reaching beyond that in some way to events in Palestine 2000 years ago ...
But not in a vatic kind of sense or a spooky, heeby-geeby one.
For instance, whilst I don't have a big issue with Marian devotion or beliefs, I don't for a moment believe that the Kursk Root Icon was miraculously discovered in an oak tree or whatever it was ...
But that felt irrelevant. Sure, there were things going on that I took to be superstitious but overall it all felt perfectly 'normal' in that kind of context.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Charisma? Not sure. Charisma can be very off-putting to some.
Charisma is a compelling attraction. Generally one feels it or not. One can distrust even should one feel the pull, but it still feels odd to say charisma can be off-putting.
quote:
More likely to be group pressure / suggestion I would think.
This is likely a factor, but given Penny S also said this:
quote:
The use of the voice, the timbre, the pauses, the rise and fall? Probably.
the cult of personality likely played a part.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I have observed many charismatic preachers and have been repulsed on many occasions at the same time as hundreds / thousands have been enthralled.
Of course, I could be prejudiced! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I have observed many charismatic preachers and have been repulsed on many occasions at the same time as hundreds / thousands have been enthralled.
Of course, I could be prejudiced!
What I find charismatic, you might not. In that case, what you are being repulsed by is not charisma as you would not be feeling it.
It is possible to feel the pull and not be comfortable with that and the discomfort repulses.
So, one could genuinely say that one is repulsed by charisma, but it is still awkward, incomplete statement. IMO.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Thinking back, my conscious brain was not much involved with the urge - it was a below the neck thing, so I'm not so sure about reverse psychology.
It would have been so easy to get up. Something like hypnosis, I suppose.
I didn't know the CU people well, and I can't remember if any of the others owned up to feeling it.
My sister had some much more obviously manipulative stuff at a meeting at Roehampton where she was at college. The people who were not obviously joining in with the hand waving and glossolalia got looked at, and preached at, and no-one could get out because there were stewards on the door. She is not currentky a practising anything.
[ 15. August 2016, 21:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I have observed many charismatic preachers and have been repulsed on many occasions at the same time as hundreds / thousands have been enthralled.
It could be down to differences in personality, or to differences in (temporary or permanent) psychological needs. Many of the people attending might be quite happy to be 'manipulated'. Those who regret their youthful curiosity will move on.
Unless you're doing some kind of research, or getting paid to be there, I don't know why you'd go out of your way to listen to charismatic preachers over and over again if you find much of what they do repulsive. Inoffensive sermons are usually available at some other venue.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Research - you got it in one.
At other times I was MW'ing. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If my memory serves, I think Mark Wuntoo has carried out studies in this area.
Even if he hadn't, I've known people who've remained for years in charismatic settings despite feeling uncomfortable with it all. If your social network is built around it and you've been told repeatedly that this is where it's at then it can be difficult for people to leave.
I know. It happened to me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I have been trying to work out the connection between what I felt and the movement to minister in Meeting for Worship. Engagement of brain in the latter seems the most obvious thing, and absence of external compulsion. But the getting up has some sort of relationship - tricky to tell with a very long gap between Graham and the Quakers, and only a few calls to minister.
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DonLogan2
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# 15608
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Posted
Interesting thread, I`m doing some work in this area at the moment with young people who attend the chuch I go to. There is an expectation, from some quarters, that we educate them in a certain manner in order to give them information rather than allowing them to explore. This comes from the control parents have over their children and wanting them to become good christians like them and because we seem to be unable to get away from didactic styles of education.
I come to the table with an agenda, I want the YP to know God, yet I want them to explore it more, to see what it means to them personally and collectively, but it still feels like an amount of manipulation.
On another tack there is someone who has been manipulated by, of all places, youtube. He now has many interesting theories he feels are true that he has seen there and down the rabbit hole he goes. Is he just misinformed or do the people who believe such guff really and fervently believe in flat earth, chem-trails and illuminati?
Why did someone start these things, what on earth did they expect to get out of it?
Lots of stuff to ponder
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
My take on the wilder conspiracy theories is that they're Gnostic heresies. All the evidence to the contrary is in plain sight, yet the initiates are invited in to the deeper knowledge that only a few are privileged or worthy to receive.
Basically, it makes them feel special. They may be simply more gullible than usual, but there's often more to it than that.
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Forward the New Republic
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have been trying to work out the connection between what I felt and the movement to minister in Meeting for Worship. Engagement of brain in the latter seems the most obvious thing, and absence of external compulsion. But the getting up has some sort of relationship - tricky to tell with a very long gap between Graham and the Quakers, and only a few calls to minister.
Re Billy Graham: Could the 'getting up' have a physical element? We sit and listen to a long sermon and then our bodies need to change position, so we stand. An 'altar call' gives permission / provides an excuse for changing position. Once we are on our feet we walk forward.
I have heard people say 'I had no intention of responding but I just found myself going to the front'. Often it is said to be the work of the Holy Spirit but that doesn't work for me.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Often it is said to be the work of the Holy Spirit but that doesn't work for me.
I'd be as careful in denying the works of the Spirit as I would be ascribing actions to Her.
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Forward the New Republic
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If my memory serves, I think Mark Wuntoo has carried out studies in this area.
Even if he hadn't, I've known people who've remained for years in charismatic settings despite feeling uncomfortable with it all. If your social network is built around it and you've been told repeatedly that this is where it's at then it can be difficult for people to leave.
I know. It happened to me.
If there are churches with that level of hold over people in our secularising society then I doubt they'll stop being manipulative any time soon. Not when they see other kinds of church shrinking rapidly because it's so easy to walk away from them.
But maybe Mark's studies show that in some churches the techniques and rituals are changing. For example, if some charismatics are experiencing less and less pressure to speak in tongues, then that's one less avenue for manipulation. If people are fiddling with their iphones rather than concentrating on every second of the 50 minute sermon is it quite so easy to be bamboozled by the oratory?
Ironically, I also get the impression that some of these churches attract too many young people. What I mean is that with the experiences that many young people bring with them today - porn, family breakdown, diverse sexualities lived as normative, permanent connection to online networks, etc. it can't be as easy to manipulate them as it was in the 80s or 90s. They enjoy the churches' liveliness and the friendships, but it must take a herculean effort from the churches to control the influences that the youngsters absorb. Many churches probably don't do it as well as they think.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Often it is said to be the work of the Holy Spirit but that doesn't work for me.
I'd be as careful in denying the works of the Spirit as I would be ascribing actions to Her.
Ah, I'm glad to say that I don't have those constraints. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I have been trying to work out the connection between what I felt and the movement to minister in Meeting for Worship. Engagement of brain in the latter seems the most obvious thing, and absence of external compulsion. But the getting up has some sort of relationship - tricky to tell with a very long gap between Graham and the Quakers, and only a few calls to minister.
Re Billy Graham: Could the 'getting up' have a physical element? We sit and listen to a long sermon and then our bodies need to change position, so we stand. An 'altar call' gives permission / provides an excuse for changing position. Once we are on our feet we walk forward.
I have heard people say 'I had no intention of responding but I just found myself going to the front'. Often it is said to be the work of the Holy Spirit but that doesn't work for me.
That seems a bit of a stretch (no pun intended) to me. Someone makes a prominent public display of faith conversion with potentially life-changing implications, simply because they need to stretch their legs??? I doubt it. We're talking large athletic stadiums where it's not hard to get up and use the restroom or walk out the front gates. No one was being held hostage there.
There's been lots of research on this phenomenon, and yes, there are aspects of group mentality at play, wanting to be part of something larger than yourself. Lots of individual differences along the spectrum between to responding to emotion and making a considered rational decision. But I don't think "I was tired from sitting so long and wanted a stroll" was much of a factor.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
otoh, now that I'm taking the time to think about it more (morning coffee beginning to kick in, but of course, too late to delete/edit post) I'm starting to see more validity in the theory. There is that weird mind/body connection that we tend to discount but shows up in all sorts of unexpected ways. It sounds too simplistic to just say "they needed to stretch"-- but as one factor among many, who knows?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Lots of individual differences along the spectrum between to responding to emotion and making a considered rational decision.
This is the sort of thing I was thinking about when I raised the idea of manipulation potentially being "in the eye of the beholder" in the OP.
Some (but not all) things are "obviously a bit of fun" or "part of the act" for some people and "evil manipulative abuse" for others.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Someone makes a prominent public display of faith conversion with potentially life-changing implications, simply because they need to stretch their legs??? I doubt it. We're talking large athletic stadiums where it's not hard to get up and use the restroom or walk out the front gates. No one was being held hostage there.
I remember reading a biography of Billy Graham which said that he had been accused of exerting emotional pressure by getting the choir to sing "Just as I am" at the altar call. So he skipped the music but was now accused of manipulation through the very fact of silence. The verdict was that he couldn't win, whatever he did.
Granted, he could have omitted the call altogether and simply asked people to go home and think about what they'd heard; that would have been a good Calvinist position and would possibly have avoided "false" or "frothy" conversions. On the other hand St. Paul talked about using "all means" to "persuade some" - so he didn't feel a great deal of compunction about it.
Michael Griffiths, the former missionary who became Principal of London Bible College, told a story about a Japanese friend who he took to hear his evangelist. At the altar call, hundreds of people were streaming to the front, due partly to the fact that Japanese culture apparently doesn't like to disappoint someone who has made a request. The friend turned to Griffiths and said, "Will he be upset if I don't go forward? Is that OK?" One mustn't ignore the power of cultural (not just emotional) norms.
I have to see that cynical me was a bit dubious about
this report which appeared on my denomination's website recently.
[ 16. August 2016, 15:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
St. Paul talked about using "all means" to "persuade some" - so he didn't feel a great deal of compunction about it.
Here's my last thread about this topic (which was actually inspired by the same original individual as this one...).
quote:
The friend turned to Griffiths and said, "Will he be upset if I don't go forward? Is that OK?" One mustn't ignore the power of cultural (not just emotional) norms.
We have friends who "have a farm in Africa" run as a Christian business. One evening some passing evangelistic team screened the Jesus film and gave an altar call. Just about everyone went forward apart from their cook. Quizzed, he said "but I already did that".
quote:
I have to see that cynical me was a bit dubious about
this report which appeared on my denomination's website recently.
Uh-oh. What is it about the summer months (and or places named Redding? ). My initial guess is a serious-minded mission that is now falling victim to evangelical hype fuelled by a desperate desire for this sort of thing to actually happen (see innumerable past threads such as here, here, here and here...)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
One mustn't ignore the power of cultural (not just emotional) norms.
We have friends who "have a farm in Africa" run as a Christian business. One evening some passing evangelistic team screened the Jesus film and gave an altar call. Just about everyone went forward apart from their cook. Quizzed, he said "but I already did that".
Martyn Lloyd-Jones of Westminster Chapel (who never gave altar calls, believing that the Spirit would work in peoples' hearts without them) told the story of a man who came to see him. This man had gone forward at an evangelistic rally because the preacher had urged his listeners "not to miss the boat". Trouble was, this poor fellow hadn't the faintest idea about the boat that he had apparently avoided missing - the evangelist's message had all been superficial with little content. (And this was decades ago, when the common memory of the Christian story would have been much stronger than it is nowadays).
[ 16. August 2016, 15:51: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The past is another country, but I find it hard to believe that the altar call, questionable though it is, is anything much to worry about in modern Britain. Don't most of the participants already attend church anyway? And I can't believe that French sophisticates fall for it in significant numbers.
It seems to be a way of revitalising a faith that already exists rather than being a significant form of evangelistic activity, and I was under the impression that a lot of Pentecostal-type churches recognised and largely accepted this.
The problem is that other forms of evangelism that involve engaging with people who are completely outside the church require much more work, for much longer, and the returns are usually low. Going for quality rather than quantity is perhaps more difficult for some churches to commit to.
[ 16. August 2016, 16:17: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Premier radio coverage including a "script" to be used. I note from the comments that Yinka Oyekan says he was "too busy" to return a Premier journalist's calls... not a good sign.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
At the altar call, hundreds of people were streaming to the front, due partly to the fact that Japanese culture apparently doesn't like to disappoint someone who has made a request. The friend turned to Griffiths and said, "Will he be upset if I don't go forward? Is that OK?" One mustn't ignore the power of cultural (not just emotional) norms.
This is precisely why we have to discourage baptism (!) when people first bring it up. All too often they are asking for it as a way of "repaying" some kind of help we have given them, e.g. filling out paperwork or something.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
For clarification: do you mean someone asking for "Believer's baptism" or for their children to be baptised?
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Premier radio coverage including a "script" to be used. I note from the comments that Yinka Oyekan says he was "too busy" to return a Premier journalist's calls... not a good sign.
To be fair, I should think he was rather busy at the time, if he had 100s of new people to minister to (assuming that just a fraction of those who responded to the campaign wanted further assistance).
The link does say that several local churches got involved with the campaign (which at least proves that Mr Oyekan is ecumenically-minded), so the journalists could have contacted one of the other ministers to discuss what had happened.
[ 16. August 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I can't tell much more, but I think the literature used and a review of the comments indicates that whatever else it may be, it's extremely decisionist.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
otoh, now that I'm taking the time to think about it more (morning coffee beginning to kick in, but of course, too late to delete/edit post) I'm starting to see more validity in the theory. There is that weird mind/body connection that we tend to discount but shows up in all sorts of unexpected ways. It sounds too simplistic to just say "they needed to stretch"-- but as one factor among many, who knows?
There are all sorts of things that can influence a "spontaneous" reaction, some of them not directly connected to, or occurring in, the event resulting in the reaction. Eliminating a need to stretch being a tiny factor in such a commitment might be less than complete, but attributing it to just or mostly that is ridiculous.
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
due partly to the fact that Japanese culture apparently doesn't like to disappoint someone who has made a request.
This might be a stronger factor in some cultures than others, but it is present in almost all. Especially in large groups.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Premier radio coverage including a "script" to be used. I note from the comments that Yinka Oyekan says he was "too busy" to return a Premier journalist's calls... not a good sign.
From the article:
quote:
Today the number is said to stand at around 1200 and Mr Oyekan estimates that 80% of this figure represent prayers for "salvation or rededications". [My bold.]
Ah, yes, rededications, the best way to inflate numbers since Soviet statistics on tractor production.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
It's pretty close to home for us. Some people are talking og going over to see what's happening - my first reservation is the sales pitch of the script. It comes on strong. I'm also war of the American bloke behind it all: being bankrupt can be down to all sorts of causes but where's the repentence for those who he can't pay?
I want to see people saved, I believe in God working on the street but what's the change in the community, what's the change in the churches?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm sorry, I'm firmly with Gamaliel on these things. Just look back at places like Cwmbran and Dudley. They have basically morphed into hosting pentecostal/charismatic conferences.
Even assuming (which is I'm afraid a generous assmuption) that these "outpourings" were not started with that in mind, that is where they end up. The evangelical/charismatic media have been raised on a diet of revivalism, coloured it with Billy Graham/Welsh revival nostalgia, have now added a nice UKIP/Brexit dose of "make this a Christian nation again", get their summer fix of New Wine or similar, and are simply desperate for God to "do it again". It's hype if not worse.
For the nasty underbelly of, say Cwmbran, consider this testimony. (There are a number of pretty rabid blogs out there on this topic, this is one of the less florid ones. The first post tells you pretty much all you need to know, I think).
[ 17. August 2016, 11:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Ah, yes, rededications, the best way to inflate numbers since Soviet statistics on tractor production.
Well, he was honest enough to admit that they weren't all utter heathens before!
It's been argued elsewhere that reaching out to people who were raised in the church, or who've had positive Christian influences makes a lot of sense for evangelists in a society where labourers are extremely few and the harvest vast. Chances of making a difference to hardened atheists or avowed secularists are very low.
Regarding the crib sheet thing, I don't that's necessarily bad. Street evangelism is a terrifying idea for the average, slightly introverted pew-sitting Christian. Not all of us are Oxbridge graduates with the gift of the gab; but some of us could perhaps improvise if we have something to work with.
And the fact that this man apparently got large numbers of church members to give up their free time to talk to strangers in the street is pretty impressive in itself - even if the real response 99% of the time was '@*!# off!'
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's been argued elsewhere that reaching out to people who were raised in the church, or who've had positive Christian influences makes a lot of sense for evangelists in a society where labourers are extremely few and the harvest vast. Chances of making a difference to hardened atheists or avowed secularists are very low.
This fails the "transparency of purpose" test. To evangelical ears (and this church is clearly evangelical) evangelists are in the business of making new converts, not simply recycling existing ones.
It's as dishonest as the altar calls that start out with "does anyone here want to give their life to Christ for the first time" (nobody moves) "does anyone here want to make a recommitment" (nobody moves) "who wants to get blessed by the Lord" (rush to the front).
quote:
Regarding the crib sheet thing, I don't that's necessarily bad.
Have you read it? It's bad first and foremost because it pushes for an on-the-spot commitment to Christ. There is no other scripted option. That is manipulative*. quote:
And the fact that this man apparently got large numbers of church members to give up their free time to talk to strangers in the street is pretty impressive in itself
Not if it's distracting them from more regular activities that will make a real difference in the long term. Would you really prefer all eveangelism to look like this?
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*To put this in perspective, in the days when I did open-air evangelism, after a sketchboard presentation team members would say "hello, I'm with the person who spoke. Would you like to tell me what you think about what he said?". This could quite easily end with a prayer on the street, but we didn't go around claiming conversions as a result.
[ 17. August 2016, 11:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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chris stiles
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have to see that cynical me was a bit dubious about
this report which appeared on my denomination's website recently.
After five minutes' Googling, I'm wondering whether one of us should buy the book by the pastor behind this "outpouring"...
Manipulation, Domination and Control
Being fairly familiar with the area and a number of the churches named in the article I'm rather similarly dubious about the whole thing.
Reading in some ways is a very odd town - it has a particularly varied set of churches, and in addition a large population of students - many international - due to the university.
It's very easy to see - given this context - how one could get large numbers of 'conversions' by talking to cafeteria Christians and getting some indication of greater 'commitment'.
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
Eutychus
AFAICS there's a lot of ambiguity regarding evangelism and its purposes in general. Any number of positions and approaches are possible.
One man's Christian is another man's vaguely spiritual agnostic whose nan went to Sunday School in the 1930s. We live in an age of 'fuzzy faith', where it can be hard to say who belongs and who doesn't - and even attempting to do so can cause offense.
The altar call serves for people who see themselves as lapsed Christians, or those who are struggling with doubt or anxieties, as well as people who don't see themselves as Christians at all.
Some denominations are happy to see conversion as a decision of the moment; others think there should be months of preparation, led by a theologically qualified person.
All this being the case, I can't see any unity about what should be done, or who should be the focus of evangelical effort. This means there will and should be many different ways of doing evangelism. But most British denominations and their members are pretty poor at it regardless of which method is under examination.
[ 17. August 2016, 12:15: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Eutychus
AFAICS there's a lot of ambiguity regarding evangelism and its purposes in general. Any number of positions and approaches are possible.
Take it from me, if you say "evangelism" in the ecclesiastical context of that church, you mean "aiming for conversion". They are honest enough to include "recommitments" in the small print, but that's not what the headlines say or imply.
quote:
The altar call serves for people who see themselves as lapsed Christians, or those who are struggling with doubt or anxieties, as well as people who don't see themselves as Christians at all.
I'd be willing to bet I've been at more altar calls than you've had hot dinners. Indeed they vary in scope. Some are honest, many follow the process I outlined above.
In the context of this thread, my takeaway is that if you give an "altar call" or train people to respond to it, you should be crystal clear about just what you are calling people to and not change your mind half way through when too few in your declared category respond.
quote:
Some denominations are happy to see conversion as a decision of the moment; others think there should be months of preparation, led by a theologically qualified person.
Yes, and I'm increasingly unhappy with the process/prayer outlined in the crib. Is it even defensible? Would you defend it?
quote:
All this being the case, I can't see any unity about what should be done, or who should be the focus of evangelical effort. This means there will and should be many different ways of doing evangelism.
There should be unity as to the spirit in which it is done: quote:
we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God
(2 Cor 4:2)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
For clarification: do you mean someone asking for "Believer's baptism" or for their children to be baptised?
As we are in a missionary situation, that's a difference which is no difference. We're basically talking whole family baptism, or at least baptism of whichever random bits of the family haven't been baptized yet. Sometimes that's a grandma in her 80s along with assorted grandbabies!
And we only discourage baptism in the sense that we are surprisingly cool to those who know us for a short time, have received some benefit from us, and immediately say they want baptism. We certainly don't tell them straight out "no" but we do put them through a cooling down period* of Christian instruction** which tends to weed out the people who thought of baptism as the equivalent of sending us a bunch of thank-you flowers.
* Not, of course, when the person is sick or otherwise in danger of death
** Of course the learning and faith development is the main point of the instruction, but the time and effort it requires is a Good Thing when we suspect pay-you-back baptism motives.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Take it from me, if you say "evangelism" in the ecclesiastical context of that church, you mean "aiming for conversion". They are honest enough to include "recommitments" in the small print, but that's not what the headlines say or imply.
Yes, but what even qualifies as 'conversion'? In a 'Christian country' most claim to be Christians. And what counts as the moment of conversion? According to you, it doesn't happen after a short discussion or prayer (even if the latter have been preceded by a long period of personal reflection?). These are the issues I was highlighting.
Lamb Chopped's situation is illuminating, in that it's much easier to establish who's a believer and who isn't.
quote:
In the context of this thread, my takeaway is that if you give an "altar call" or train people to respond to it, you should be crystal clear about just what you are calling people to and not change your mind half way through when too few in your declared category respond.
I agree. Or at least, there should be a clearly expressed theology of the hybridisation of the altar call, as some might see it.
quote:
I'm increasingly unhappy with the process/prayer outlined in the crib. Is it even defensible? Would you defend it?
TBH, my first thought is that as it stands, not many people would take much notice. Why would the average secularised British person doing their shopping hear those words out of nowhere and meekly follow along? It's not as if they were in a church service, having chosen to attend due to a predisposition to be manipulated, or whatever.
The crib sheet is not really my cup of tea, but I'm assuming that it acted as a spur to conversation. Individuals would've had to open up about themselves and talk about faith. You may tell me that such discussions were unlikely to happen, in which case I'll have to defer to your greater knowledge of people's utter lack of curiosity!
I suppose I'm thinking about the importance of context. But if folk who were thinking of nothing holier than what they might find in Poundland that day could be persuaded to pray to Jesus on the way there it does suggest that there's a spiritual longing in that city. The churches now know that, and they must address it properly.
quote:
There should be unity as to the spirit in which it is done: quote:
we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God
(2 Cor 4:2)
Ah, if only it were so 'plain'!
If I'd been raised more evangelically, like my extended family, it might seem less complicated. (But I would have witnessed far more altar calls....)
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Yes, but what even qualifies as 'conversion'?
That's irrelevant to the context of this thread, which is about manipulation.
As it is, I think that when pushed, even the most "decisionist" evangelicals think it requires more than simply "praying the prayer" or following a set order of words (which is how I understand Muslims to view conversion). But the fact is that this kind of technique can quickly lead to "scalp-hunting".
quote:
I agree. Or at least, there should be a clearly expressed theology of the hybridisation of the altar call, as some might see it.
It's not theological. It's commmon courtesy. If you ask people to come forward, you should be clear on why you're asking them to come forward.
(To take a non-Christian example, I hate it when speakers ask for a volunteer without telling them beforehand, at least in broad terms, what they are expecting the volunteer to do).
If you're not doing that, you're not displaying "transparency of purpose".
quote:
TBH, my first thought is that as it stands, not many people would take much notice. Why would the average secularised British person doing their shopping hear those words out of nowhere and meekly follow along?
They might well do if they want to get a religious lunatic off their backs.
quote:
The crib sheet is not really my cup of tea, but I'm assuming that it acted as a spur to conversation. Individuals would've had to open up about themselves and talk about faith.
That's precisely what it's not designed to do. (For the avoidance of doubt, here it is again (part 1, part 2) quote:
If they do not say "I have Jesus in my heart/I am born again" go with the script
It's designed to elicit a decision and nothing else. quote:
You may tell me that such discussions were unlikely to happen, in which case I'll have to defer to your greater knowledge of people's utter lack of curiosity!
I'm with former Restorationist apostle George Tarleton here when he pleaded for Christians to stop evangelising the world and start loving it.
In my experience people are largely happy to be prayed for and to discuss spiritual matters - provided you don't have an agenda, overt or covert, to convert them.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Eutychus
A few waffly points in response, but we're not coming from the same place, and obviously have different experiences. And I'm just a simple layperson.
1. If you're manipulating people into conversions then being aware of what it means to be or not be a Christian is very relevant, I would have thought!
2. I did look again at the crib sheet so I know what it says. Maybe it's just me, but I'd be inclined to want some sort of engagement, and not just take 'If B, do C' as the be all and end all of what to do.
3. We'll have to disagree on people in the street agreeing to pray just to get rid of a 'religious lunatic'. There's quite a bit of street preaching in my city, and that wouldn't happen here, although it may be your experience. I'm imagining a passer-by's sarcastic 'prayer voice' that the evangelists, a dopey bunch of manipulators all, utterly fail to notice!
4. With regard to there being too much evangelism, I can tell that you're speaking out of your experience of the evangelical world. In British terms, my world is mainstream MOTR Protestantism, with evangelicalism slightly overlapping. In my world, there is in no sense too much evangelism.
5. The mainstream Christian world here yearns to help the disadvantaged. Churches are setting up food banks, proclaiming their solidarity with refugees, getting involved with schemes for the homeless, raising money for countless charities at home and abroad, inviting in speakers to talk about NGOs, problems in the Middle East, the environment, and so on. It's not enough love, but it's happening.
There's also ecumenicalism rather than rivalry, and even some inter-faith work; the other day I attended a concert of Muslim music in a beautiful old church. Christians and Muslims were singing along together.
6. The problem is that without evangelism, the labourers will always be very few, and the burden on those who remain to do the work will be very heavy indeed. Just being loving and doing the social justice things isn't enough, sadly. I know this from experience. We need some churches to be willing to evangelise, or else the whole thing will collapse. Maybe not where you live, but I can see it happening in parts of the UK in the next few decades.
7. Manipulation: IMO the way to deal with this is for the non-manipulative churches to be better at defining and pursuing their own mission, at supporting each other and at speaking to the world. Complaining about what other churches from completely different traditions do doesn't seem to be productive (although it may be a natural form of 'Christian unrest').
8. If these altar calls and revivals are barren exercises, the churches that prioritise them will ultimately fail. And in the British context what happens in churches outside the CofE and RCC is of little interest to the wider public, so their antics will generally pass unremarked.
[ 17. August 2016, 15:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Eutychus lives in France, SvitlanaV2. Not a place known for teeming multitudes of evangelicals.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Yes, I know that. He frequently comments on both French and British evangelicalism.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok, so why did you write, 'Maybe not where you live ...?'
You know very well where Eutychus lives. Presumably you also know very well that France isn't exactly awash with evangelicalism and evangelicals.
Sure, not all of us live in inner-city areas like you do, but I don't think any of the UK Shipmates posting here live in places where revival is happening or where the churches are all holding their own. No such place exists here in the UK.
Neither do I think that anyone is questioning the need for evangelism, what people seem to have an issue with is 'manipulation' in its various forms.
I can foresee widespread collapse across a whole range of churches, and not only liberal and MoTR ones either - many evangelical and charismatic outfits will implode when the realisation comes that their hype and over-egged expectations are unsustainable.
That said, I can see some morphing and adopting a more holistic approach. It all depends on how they are geared up to respond and what inner resources they have - as well as by how closely or otherwise they are connected to the 'grand tradition.'
Sure, people can find a genuine faith through even the whackiest of settiings or the most crass approaches. But that doesn't mean that we should go out and attempt to manipulate people with the hope that a greater good will come of it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, so why did you write, 'Maybe not where you live ...?'
You know very well where Eutychus lives. Presumably you also know very well that France isn't exactly awash with evangelicalism and evangelicals.
.
Well, for a start, Eutychus is obviously rather concerned about what evangelicals do. This suggests that it's an important issue for him, and it may be a particular concern in his area, if not throughout France.
Secondly, he's implied on other occasions that French evangelicals are beginning to outnumber France's traditional mainstream Protestants. The impression I get is that for Eutychus this is a problem, because the evangelicals tend to have behaviours and attitudes that are undesirable. I think he feels more positive about the traditional Protestants, but he actually says very little about them.
But as I said, if manipulative evangelism is fruitless and its proponents failures then there's not much point in worrying it. We all seem to be on a level, and 'manipulation' is just one little problem amidst a jungle of others!
BTW, I don't live in the 'inner city'. I live in a city. My particular interests and experiences relate to faith in an urban context, which includes inner city areas, as well as inner suburban and outer suburban areas.
[ 22. August 2016, 18:32: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, Eutychus is an evangelical, so he's naturally concerned about what evangelicals do.
Anyone who has a concern for the Gospel and for evangelism is going to be concerned about these things.
Even if evangelicals are beginning to outnumber traditional or 'mainstream' Protestants in parts of France then they are still very much in a minority.
I don't think it's an issue that evangelicals are intrinsically 'undesirable', it's more a concern that they amend their ways in some respects and modify their practices.
I can't speak for anyone else but I'm more than happy to see evangelicals evangelising ... but I'm not happy if they are being manipulative or under-hand in the way they do it.
That's why there's a great deal of point in worrying about it, because it can be counter-productive and people get hurt.
If manipulative techniques didn't hurt anyone then we wouldn't be getting exercised about it.
Of course, there's a 'jungle' of other issues and no Christian tradition is free of problems.
But this thread is about manipulation.
And the examples many of us have encountered happen to have been within an evangelical context.
People from other traditions would have other examples from their own context.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm a bit bemused by this fascinating exchange of views about my churchmanship, location, and preferences. Since nobody's actually asked me anything here, I'll just keep being bemused.
[ 22. August 2016, 19:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sorry, Eutychus, it's just that I get a bit fed up at times with SvitlanaV2's consistent mantra about how some of us might live in places where our experience may differ from hers and how it's all very well for us to criticise aspects of evangelicalism when the MoTR and liberal churches are closing down at a rate of knots and how ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I just give my own experience. You give your experience. That's what a conversation is.
The whole 'your experience may be different' thing that I do is me accepting that I don't speak for everyone, just myself. But it seems to give the opposite impression from what I'm intending; you insist that I'm dismissing your experience. I don't know why you think that.
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