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Source: (consider it) Thread: Lifestyle diets, vegetarian, vegan, other avoidances: rigidity and flexibility
lilBuddha
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Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:

Matter of time, place, manner, and empathy.

I agree, but would add that our perception of these conditions is more subjective than we would often admit.

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Boogie

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My husband once sat next to a rabid tea-totaller at a meal hosted by his friend.

The bloke (loudly) said "how can you put wine in your body when you know it's a temple of the Holy Spirit". My husband replied "after dinner I'll race you up that mountain, then you can tell me who has best looked after their temple". The bloke could barely breathe when walking he was so fat.

We are all pretty blind to our own faults and wide awake to others.

Me too. I battle with extra pounds all the time - but I'm more critical of food abusers than people who don't take care of themselves in other ways. In reality, for me, it's self criticism focused outwards.

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anteater

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Can I raise here the issue of orthorexia. It is defined as an irrational fear of eating certain foods/drinks, and is often applied to people on extreme diets for health reasons (i.e. not ethical convictions) who persist in them even when there are no clear health benefits and in some case, actually harm.

I think it often starts when we get complaints like gastric problems, general aches and pains, tiredness etc, and hesitate to go to the doctor so go to the internet and get loads of sites, proposing that it is down to what we eat.

And this sounds plausible. We know there are real and dangerous allergies so it makes sense that there may be allergies that are not life threatening but which could account for our problems. Second, the arguments that some food groups evolved late in human evolution resulting in poor adaption of our metabolism is not obviously silly. Hence the Gluten scare, and dairy.

For some people the problem is avoidance, and this is true of most allergies. They don't want to consume the problem food but find it hard to avoid when they cannot know exactly what went into a meal.

Then there is the problem of addiction, which I define as continuing to eat/drink something that you want to give up because you believe it to be harmful. This can lead us to view the food as an enemy (as is increasingly true of the anti-sugar lobby which generally I support), and brings into play psychological forces which may be inappropriate.

It is just a fact, that many people find abstinence easier than moderation. If I had been able to limit ciggies to five a day I would be probably be smoking today. In all my life I have known just one occasional smoker.

So we end up with a fear of "eating the forbidden thing" be that cakes, alcohol, choccies, or in my friends case, anything banned on the MODFAT diet. We feel if we eat it "we have lost and it has won". Our self esteem gets highly dependent on our ability to win out in the struggle.

And sometimes that will be sensible. But it can also become a snare, leading people to avoid things religiously where there is no rational ground to believe that occasional eating will do any harm which they will often admit themselves.

I have experimented with zero-carb diets (like Atkins) and felt I was getting close to acting irrationally, which is when I decided they were not for me.

Some people say it's all about the "addictive personality". Possibly true, but I suspect that this applies to a large percentage of the human race.

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lily pad
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
quote:
So what are the ethics, morals and behavioural guidelines about this?
This interests me for several reasons. But for now I'll take one of them.

...It intrigues me why Churches are so intent on pushing sugary cakes down people throats - more so than doctrine it seems. "We don't do dogma. God loves you. Have a cake!" ...

Serving something celebratory to share as a community after worship probably began with a cake for an anniversary or some other occasion. Back in the day, everyone had ordinary foods at home like fresh vegetables and home made bread. There was nothing special about them. What was special was a cake made from white sugar using eggs and butter. Cakes showed off the time and effort of the art of baking. There was a sense that you bring your best forward to share.

I'll admit that often today's offerings have been bought at a bakery or are commercially made but the tradition of having something lovely as a treat after worship is well established. I'm pretty sure that piece of cake "shoved down your throat" won't destabilize your healthy eating plan and if it does, a polite, "No thanks, you have my piece" would be an acceptable response.

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la vie en rouge
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I think a lot of the issues around food are questions of simple good manners.

A few years back, my church small group decided to have a Christmas dinner. One person, A, offered to invite everyone round his house and cook. He is frequently a rather socially excluded person on account of some quite major disabilities and having everyone round was a big deal to him. It made him feel included and valued. He is furthermore an excellent cook so this was pretty much a win-win for everyone and the proposition was enthusiastically received. Except… one person, S, who made sad puppy eyes at me and asked if we couldn’t all bring things round to share. She is a vegetarian and was afraid there would be nothing she could eat. As the leader of the group I put my foot down and said no. I said I would make sure there were sides without meat, but that cooking was important to A and it would be rude and unkind not to let him. Also the other 7 of us wanted to eat A’s delicious cooking.

The other thing this story shows is that a lot of the problems around food preferences are to do with good communication. Instead of asking to completely change the dinner, I think it would have been better for S to say ‘I don’t eat meat, can we plan for that?’ No problem, we’ll include vegetarian side dishes. In the same vein, I having a hard time digesting garlic. However, I don’t tell people I’m allergic to it. I tell them that I can eat a little but not much, because if they feed me a little bit and see that nothing happens, they might go on to feed it to someone who genuinely does have a severe allergy.

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Curiosity killed ...

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My daughter's response to being asked out is that she is complicated to feed, that she'd love to join them, so can she bring something she can eat? Or can they meet for something that isn't a meal?

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Baptist Trainfan
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We recently had a meal with friends who are pescatarians. I am not picky about my food but forgot to tell them in advance that I don't like bread-and-butter pudding and, more important, that I am allergic to mussels - I like them but they and my insides just don't get on.

They duly served a fish stew which was delicious but, inevitably, included mussels. I could have picked them out but felt that this would have been rude. I did hope for the best but I felt decidedly queasy during the night. However I won't tell our friends (they're not Shipmates - at least, I don't think so!)

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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Onthe subject of orthorexia, I have a friend who seems to suffer from this - to the extent of carrying about a special kind of bread to avoid the Dreaded Wheat.

I mock her cheerfully about it, but always discuss the menu (she usually comes to dinner when she is up in Embra). She invariably eats everything and I feel pleased that I have, for once, moved food out of the realm of mistrust and avoidance, and into that of straightforward enjoyment.

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Jengie jon

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Anyone else noticed the amount of emotion going on below the surface in this discussion?

Food is highly emotional and socially constructed. We sometimes treat food prohibition as belonging to other cultures and ourselves of free of these sort of things. It is an accepted view. The last few years I have spent quite a bit of time thinking of our food culture for a variety of reasons. There is an awful lot of it around.

Two things that need to be borne in mind always. There is a sense that the idea is still held that those you eat food with are your people. So sharing a meal is a sign of belonging. It is why we get so caught up about manners of accepting food and determining what will be served. To some extent, this is at the heart of this thread, the battle between wanting the acceptance of shared food with also wanting the acknowledgement of your lifestyle choices.

The other is that having food to eat is part of our survival. If you go to a meal expecting to be able to eat then find you can't (I have done due to lactose intolerance), it can be a very emotional experience. I think it probably goes beyond exclusion to feel as a threat to your existence.

Jengie

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Twilight

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Jengie has good points.

I griped once about my church never being able to get together for anything (finance meeting, Bible study) without having food and a nice lady reminded me that Jesus always seemed to have food. So I guess I shouldn't mind, but I find the carry-in pot lucks so intimidating with an underlying judgement of everything from one's gourmet skills to the supposed cleanliness of one's kitchen that I stay away from all of them.
quote:
But there was this one couple ---- they RSVP'd promptly and arrived at the appointed hour. AND THEN. she asked for a cup of tea (demanded, really), and he said 'don't you have any beer?' I didn't have any beer and the kitchen was far too crowded/busy to make tea. (There were approx 75 guests.) I just said 'I'm so sorry, it's just not possible.' They were not on the next year's guest list.
How awful!I had the same thing happen to me at a much smaller dinner. Why do people think they get to order drinks as if they were in a restaurant? This woman came in the kitchen and watched me make the tea. Drag out the kettle. Boil the water (but not too long in case the oxygen goes out of it) dig out the tea pot, warm it, put in the leaves, pour the water, find a tea cup, saucer, sugar bowl, creamer, fill them, time the steeping. Oh quick find a strainer! The tea leaves clogged the spout and the stuff over flowed all over my spotless kitchen. My thoughts, "I hate tea! Liquid tin can! This is America, darn it, next time you'll have a coke and like it."
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Golden Key
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lB--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Matter of time, place, manner, and empathy.
I agree, but would add that our perception of these conditions is more subjective than we would often admit.
Yes. I work on this, myself. What helps me most is training myself to take a step back, consider other perspectives, and think before I speak. Not easy, and I sometimes mess up. (Kind of like using Preview Post! [Biased] ) But I'm learning.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This woman came in the kitchen and watched me make the tea. Drag out the kettle. Boil the water (but not too long in case the oxygen goes out of it) dig out the tea pot, warm it, put in the leaves, pour the water, find a tea cup, saucer, sugar bowl, creamer, fill them, time the steeping. Oh quick find a strainer! The tea leaves clogged the spout and the stuff over flowed all over my spotless kitchen. My thoughts, "I hate tea! Liquid tin can! This is America, darn it, next time you'll have a coke and like it."

"Sorry, I ran out of that." Or the more blatant "Sorry, I don't have the energy to do that." I used to keep on hand coffee and decaf and canned milk for coffee drinking friends even though I don't touch the stuff, these friends come rarely, and by far most goes bad and gets thrown out. I've quit that. If people visit me, or I visit them, it's to enjoy the company not to be served a particular beverage.

I do ask what foods are off limits. I have friends whose health changed dramatically when they quit all gluten, or who break out from cherries, or need an ambulance if fed MSG. Over 50% of USA adults (and well over 75% of world population) are cow-milk intolerant. Peanuts can be deadly. And so on. Corn, soy, shellfish - almost anything can be an allergen. I don't want to feed a friend something that is poison to them even if fine food for many.

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Golden Key
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Re gluten, fake allergies and illnesses, and supposed exaggeration:

{Long, because it's this topic, and it's been that kind of day.}

I know the idea that you can be sensitive to gluten, without having full-blown celiac disease is controversial. And I know some people think it's just a silly fad.

I haven't run into anyone who seems faddish about it. Maybe I simply haven't met the right people.

But I have various allergies and sensitivities, including gluten and dairy, and odd reactions to things. I generally class them, informally, as allergies, rather than trying to explain everything. My reactions to wheat/gluten and dairy aren't life-threatening, and I can eat a certain amount of them, occasionally. (I try to save that for take-out pizza; and emergency sandwiches when running errands, and a pocket power bar isn't enough.)

A gastroenterologist is helping me work this out. So far, it looks like I don't have "true celiac disease". (Whew.) But I definitely do have sensitivities. They can mess with my thinking, give me arthritic symptoms, and (TMI) make me bloat severely. So I do need to be careful, to the extent that my budget and other circumstances permit, and not eat much of those things. Certain ways of preparation make them easier for me to handle, as do digestive aids--like acidophilus capsules. (IANAD.)

Someone mentioned that people get wrong ideas from reading up on things on their own. Sure, that can happen, especially if you don't filter your reading at all. But it can be decades--if ever--before docs figure out what you've got. (Look up the late comedienne Gilda Radner. She was bounced from one specialist to another, told it was all in her head...and by the time she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, it was too late.)

That's very common. And you have to find a way to live in the meantime. So you look at complementary medicine, check with other people with similar symptoms, and do some careful experimentation. If something helps, you keep doing it, and add other things in as you find them. If it makes you worse, you drop it. It gets expensive. You hope against hope that you'll get a diagnosis. (Even an inaccurate one can be a relief, if the doc seems to be taking you seriously.) That people will take you seriously, or at least not make fun of you when they don't believe you.

One of my disabilities is Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS/CFS/ME). You may have heard it joked about as "Yuppie flu". It's very real. (In my case, stop-working and spend- years-in-bed real.) There's good research going on. I finally found my way to a doctor who's involved with it. (Huge relief, I'm on massive doses of anti-virals, and I'm doing a little better.) Various celebrities have come out about having CFIDS and/or the related fibromyalgia. There've been publicity campaigns. Yet some doctors still don't believe; and loved ones of sufferers often harass and neglect them.

Well, some people still don't believe in AIDS, either.*

The CDC finally recognized CFIDS, after misspending the money Congress gave them to research our disease, and Congress calling them on the carpet.

Anyway, that's a long-winded, winding way of saying that people can have bad reactions to things, be very ill, even if they don't have an official diagnosis and their illness isn't very visible.

Helpful resources:

--But You Don't Look Sick site. Especially check out "Spoon Theory", sort of an object lesson. It's very popular, and helps people understand. There's a link at the top of the "Popular Posts" section.

--Invisible Disabilities site.

*CFIDS isn't directly fatal. But it wears you down and leaves you vulnerable to a variety of things. And some people decide they just can't take it any more. (Not me. I'm sticking around. But if I hadn't finally gotten some help that works...)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re gluten, fake allergies and illnesses, and supposed exaggeration:

{Long, because it's this topic, and it's been that kind of day.}

I know the idea that you can be sensitive to gluten, without having full-blown celiac disease is controversial.

My understanding is the medical evidence is more and more supporting non-celiac gluten sensitivity being real. It is best diagnosed by a doctor, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

And I know some people think it's just a silly fad.

I haven't run into anyone who seems faddish about it. Maybe I simply haven't met the right people.

You live in California and you have not encountered faddish "sensitivities"? Really?
Trying not to stereotype but California, especially SoCal, is the home planet of imagined illness and health fads.
It is difficult to throw a rock and not hit a gluten-free, macrobiotic soy-based vegan colon cleansing hot yoga studio

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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GoldenKey:
quote:
If something helps, you keep doing it, and . . . It gets expensive.
That's a very significant factor for food choices. I got interested in the whole debate about carbs by a book which asked the simple question "How did obesity change from being a disease of the rich to being a disease of the poor?"

The answer offered was that carbs are the cheapest form of food. One of the downsides of Atkins type diets (which I wouldn't now follow but don't condemn) is that unless your prepared to spend a lot of money, you can end up eating a lot of crap: endless ham and bacon, too much cheese, and certainly too much salt.

Good quality protein rich food costs a fortune. Especially high quality fish which is probably the best form.

At least I can cope with tofu!

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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anteater

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i could try freeze dried leafcutter ants.

Only £430/kg.

Yum yum. [Razz]

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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Golden Key
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LOL, anteater.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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lB--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re gluten, fake allergies and illnesses, and supposed exaggeration:

{Long, because it's this topic, and it's been that kind of day.}

I know the idea that you can be sensitive to gluten, without having full-blown celiac disease is controversial.

My understanding is the medical evidence is more and more supporting non-celiac gluten sensitivity being real. It is best diagnosed by a doctor, though.
Yes, I've heard about the progress in evidence. Have also heard there's quite a lot of gluten sensitivity in Italy, because of eating all that pasta--so there are more gluten-free options now.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And I know some people think it's just a silly fad.

I haven't run into anyone who seems faddish about it. Maybe I simply haven't met the right people.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You live in California and you have not encountered faddish "sensitivities"? Really?
Trying not to stereotype but California, especially SoCal, is the home planet of imagined illness and health fads.
It is difficult to throw a rock and not hit a gluten-free, macrobiotic soy-based vegan colon cleansing hot yoga studio

If it walks like a stereotype and quacks like a stereotype...

Sure, there are health fads, belief system fads, book fads, clothing fads, food fads, etc. We may have a particular panache to ours. Often, there is something to a fad that meets a felt need. Fads also occur elsewhere. What fads have there been where you are? Never mind all the viral memes (fads) online.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that we specialize in "imagined illnesses". Is it possible you laugh off anything Californian as crazy, and therefore assume that illnesses with notoriety must be imagined? You might find the links at the end of my post useful.

Other than that, what I said stands.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re gluten, fake allergies and illnesses, and supposed exaggeration:

{Long, because it's this topic, and it's been that kind of day.}

I know the idea that you can be sensitive to gluten, without having full-blown celiac disease is controversial.

My understanding is the medical evidence is more and more supporting non-celiac gluten sensitivity being real. It is best diagnosed by a doctor, though.
Spoken like somebody with no opportunity cost for doctor visits/tests.

If I go three weeks without eating gluten and then have a gluteny meal and get sick, and say I repeat that a couple of times -- what need of paying a doctor, a laboratory, maybe a specialist hundreds of dollars? Clearly I shouldn't eat gluten. End of.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
What fads have there been where you are?

Crazy knows no boundary, so yes.
quote:

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that we specialize in "imagined illnesses". Is it possible you laugh off anything Californian as crazy, and therefore assume that illnesses with notoriety must be imagined? You might find the links at the end of my post useful.

Any urban area will have a greater concentration of marginal industries such as colon cleansing, "health" stores*, exercise fads and the like. If for no other reason than a larger number of victims/customers. My California comment was mostly hyperbole. Los Angeles, and its surround area, is the part of California I am most familiar with. And parts of it shift with the tides more than any urban area I have spent much time in.


quote:
Is it possible you laugh off anything Californian as crazy, and therefore assume that illnesses with notoriety must be imagined?
Absolutely not. But given that many people self-diagnose with no methodology, seem to have whatever is in the news at the moment, there would seem to be fewer real sufferers than claimed. This does not negate the travails of those who actually do have these ailments.
Urban areas** do tend to increase allergies, so it makes sense that sensitivities will increase as well. And, given population density, one will be more likely to encounter people who have or claim to have a particular ailment.
I do not assume anyone is incorrect in what they think they have and do not tell them even if I believe they are wrong. The most I generally do is urge caution and care so they do not cause themselves more harm than good.

*These often contain many items of dubious efficacy, no efficacy and actual harm.
**I understand that not all of California is urban. But that is where most of the people are.

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Belle Ringer
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re gluten, fake allergies and illnesses, and supposed exaggeration:

...you can be sensitive to gluten without having full-blown celiac disease

...But I have various allergies and sensitivities, including gluten and dairy, and odd reactions to things. I generally class them, informally, as allergies,

...and I can eat a certain amount of them, occasionally.

...people can have bad reactions to things, be very ill, even if they don't have an official diagnosis and their illness isn't very visible.


I discovered non celiac gluten sensitivity when I bought a loaf of spelt bread just for something different and was amazed after eating a sandwich of it - I thought you were supposed to feel heavy and have to loosen your belt after a meal, but I felt light and energetic and no belt adjustment needed! Now I know from lots of experimenting one piece of bread or cookie or piece of cake will put one inch on my waist, belly, and hips, and take 3 to 7 days to come off. That's the body protesting.

Milk makes my ears ring, a serving of cream soup they ring the whole next day or two, two servings they ring louder, three servings and I can't hear you through the variety and depth of ear noises.

I loosely use the word allergy because what else quickly communicates "my body reacts negatively to that food"?

I do occasionally indulge in a cookie knowing i will suffer for it, or an ice cream or some cheese knowing I won't hear well. But usually negative symptoms are warnings of deeper more dangerous problems like inflammation. So I rarely cheat. But also I've seen that if I make an exception and have one forkful of birthday cake people write off the whole thing as "see, she's not allergic at all."

My friend with COPD gets scolded often for handicap parking because they see her walk away from the car without a cane so assume she has no disability. Yes she can walk - but not very far because her breathing is limited. "Invisible" disabilities are real and life limiting.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Onthe subject of orthorexia, I have a friend who seems to suffer from this - to the extent of carrying about a special kind of bread to avoid the Dreaded Wheat.

I mock her cheerfully about it, but always discuss the menu (she usually comes to dinner when she is up in Embra). She invariably eats everything and I feel pleased that I have, for once, moved food out of the realm of mistrust and avoidance, and into that of straightforward enjoyment.

This last sentence really resonates with me. I once tried to figure out why I was so comfortable with two families who became good friends quite quickly. One had a little guy with a wheat allergy and the other had a mom who was a trained dietitian. As a result, any spontaneous invitations to eat came with a level of trust that I have never known previously. Both families were able to cater to my needs without any fuss and that let all the worry fall away. Thanks for putting that into words.

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Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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Well, thank you. I regard anyone's food preferences/restrictions as an opportunity for creative cooking.
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anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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Yes another tangent. Does anybody else find it interesting that Christianity is the only major religion with no strong teaching on the type of food we eat? Gluttony is out, but not defined.

Some denominations do, most notably SDA's, and I'd be interested in how that works out. Being part of a culture that takes seriously what we eat, could be beneficial, but one obviously fears it could get very intolerant. I used to think they were all veggies, but apparently it is only recommended. So do anyone know if that works out ok? We used to have a (fairly liberal) SDA on the Ship.

As an aside, I have an interest in the SDAs, in case I'm asked by people coming out of the JWs, for a suitable landing place. And SDAs have the great advantage of not being hell believers, which JWs find hard to stomach, as do I. SFAIK they are orthodox if mega Arminian.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Re gluten. I have friends doing things with flour. One's a mill manager, the othrt a univ researcher. I have a family member with Celiac. What I have learned is that wheat had been bred to increase protein and gluten, and they pretty much ignore the rest.

I also bake every week. I have some Red Fife flour, which is a heritage wheat, unchanged since sometime in the 19th century. The bread from is entirely different. Taste, texture, rise, storage length.

I suspect gluten sensitvity versus Celiac is ahout exactly what you are exposed to. Even UK and USA all purpose flours are different tham Cdn. Different enough that recipes often don't match.

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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Gluten is a protein as well, but not one that matters to human health. At least not directly. Gluten is part of what gives bread its texture. Part of the experience of what many people find enjoyable about eating bread is due to gluten.
European wheat tends to be lower in gluten, likely accounting for lower numbers of sensitivity.
Red fife, BTW, is a hard red wheat. The type naturally higher in gluten.

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Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Apparently bread dough should be risen twice, and slowly. Modern quick methods make bread which is not good for our digestion.

I find either home made or Polish bread the best. Cheap 'cotton wool' bread gives me a really poorly tum.

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