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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: If you enjoy worship, is it worship?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's not boring, it's not fun. It's not anything. It's meh.
Meh is my whole spirituality now. I don't feel anything about God. It's just meh.
Meh.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The boring churches are emptying. The church we now attend, after the boring one we previously attended until 4 years ago closed, can seat 1500, but about 10% or 150 is all that shows up. The midweek euchartists get about 10, all in their 70s and 80s. (the diocese here is closing churches all the time, and seems to be funding itself via real estate deals and investments)
The churches with lots of people have fun worship with catchy countryfied music, hummable tunes where they can engage in spiritual heavy petting but never orgasm their lifestyle.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Many of us on this website probably lean in this direction, but we need to realise that our religion doesn't have to be like that for everyone. Jesus said nothing about separating worship from life, or making church a cerebral experience.
The fact that we're all here having this discussion suggests that perhaps we incline more to the cerebral than average outside our church lives as well.
Certainly in my case that's why I incline to a "moderately serious, cerebral church" - it matches the rest of my life. I don't connect with banal physicality at all.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Many of us on this website probably lean in this direction, but we need to realise that our religion doesn't have to be like that for everyone. Jesus said nothing about separating worship from life, or making church a cerebral experience.
Jesus said nothing about a lot of things. But what he did speaks also. He did not spend his entire life in the Temple, nor in the Synagogue. But he did go there, presumably to worship. Now what you call what you do outside the Temple or Synagogue, isn't really the issue. The question of this thread as far as I can tell has to do with what we do INSIDE the Temple/Synagogue. Should THAT activity be boring? Whether or not something outside those confines counts as "worship," while interesting, is a separate question and not really relevant.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The fact that we're all here having this discussion suggests that perhaps we incline more to the cerebral than average outside our church lives as well.
Certainly in my case that's why I incline to a "moderately serious, cerebral church" - it matches the rest of my life. I don't connect with banal physicality at all.
I think there's a bit of a false dichotomy here. My church has a hell of a lot of "banal physicality" -- music, images, incense, etc. If you wanted to come and just get lost in that side of it, it would be easy to do.
But there is also a hell of a lot of cognitive content. The icons of course all tell stories and one can learn how to "read" them. All that music has words, and the words are pretty meaty. The music itself (the dots) has patterns both subtle and obvious, and I get a lot of enjoyment from thinking about these and ferreting them out. I'm probably not alone. Add to this the scripture readings and sermon/homily, and there is plenty to think about. It can be a very cerebral experience, if you choose to make it so, to mentally engage with the content.
So it's not either/or.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I understand that there's a fine line between enjoying an aspect of worship because it enables you to better connect with God and enjoying it purely for itself as one would a play, pop concert or symphony. But trying to stay on the right side of that line can't mean we have to eliminate everything we enjoy from our worship. Can it? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1qYQQEwPUU
Joyful Orthodox worship in Africa. I think this (in terms of the joy they are expressing) is how worship SHOULD be. OK, sometimes a more contemplative worship is also valuable. but overall, I think joyful singing of the liturgy is how it was intended to be conducted. WE (Russians) tend to slow down the singing and it starts to sound like a dirge.
and since I'm posting singing videos: here is my favorite version of the singing of the first psalm "Blessed is the man". a great example of something that is often sung much slower, and sounds very different when it is. this gives me goosebumps whenever I hear it, whether slow or fast (assuming everyone is singing on key). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PcRAZ35zLQ&list=RD_PcRAZ35zLQ#t=318
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
Joyful Orthodox worship in Africa. I think this (in terms of the joy they are expressing) is how worship SHOULD be.
Beautiful. That is very similar to what I have experienced many times.
I was surprised to see a white priest in Ghana.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You mean like this ?
I'm sure the 21st Century doesn't have a monopoly on ecstatic worship.
Lovely sculpture, btw.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
From my experience, the Orthodox tend to slow down their hymns but, in many instances, rattle through the prayers at a fair old lick ...
At its most extreme it can sound like a cattle auction or a racing commentary.
Lovely video clips by the way. Both of them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
From my experience, the Orthodox tend to slow down their hymns but, in many instances, rattle through the prayers at a fair old lick ...
That has not been my experience at all, although I will admit I have not worshipped in more than 10 or 15 Orfie churches. Indeed the only time I've ever heard about rapid-fire prayers, other than from you, is one time at J's church in Memphis, TN, when the air conditioning went out on a 90 degree day, and the deacon went through the petitions as fast as ever he could, combining three petitions per one "Lord, have mercy" and in general gittin' 'er done in record time.
ETA: Come to think of it, I have heard that military chaplains tend to rush things because they are used to having to get through the whole shebang in an hour so the next denomination's chaplain can have the tent for THEIR service.
[ 22. August 2016, 19:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm thinking of one priest in particular who flies through the whole thing so fast his words tumble over each other as if he's going for the 'How many Saints can you possibly name in one minute' record.
I've not come across any who do it quite as rapidly as this chap, but Orthodox friends here tell me that whilst he is particularly fast he's not unique ...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Clearly something about your island has an effect on the speed of Orthodox liturgies. Queer.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Our congregation just switched to our Trinity Mass, which essentially follows the ordinary mass outline, but has an African beat. We sway, we move, we sing in the round, we certainly enjoy it.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure whether it's a British thing, Mousethief. It's something I've heard complained of by people in the Russian and Greek jurisdictions here but not something I've seen among the Antiochians, I must admit.
I've seen a few instances myself, but I must admit that the particular priest I'm thinking of takes it to the nth degree ...
'InthenameoftheFatherandoftheSonandofthe ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
I only once heard an Orthodox priest really rush through the service (and at the time I appreciated it, because there were reasons to be in a rush). Often it's the opposite.. a priest who will drag things out. the norm, in my experience, is something in-between: fairly fast, but not so fast that one can't follow or words run into each other. Chanting does help with that, I think, although I guess it's possible to chant at a rapid-fire pace, it is harder. AT least seems so to me, although now that I think of it, I have heard some psalm readings (the hours) where the reader managed to chant so fast I was amazed their tongues could manage it. But that was not during liturgy.
In thinking of worship v. enjoyment, I thought about the composers who have written music for the liturgy. It's usually far to complex to use during a service, and was always intended more for concert performances. So, one can hear the exact same music (liturgy) sung as part of a service, or sung on stage in a performance. is it worship in one case and not the other? I think whether something is worship has nothing to do with whether it's enjoyed or not, but rather in how you react to it. you can worship during a concert, or be purely entertained during a service. It's about what you, and what is in your heart at the time, I think. Certainly enjoyment or non-enjoyment are completely irrelevant to whether something is worship. And the nature of the music, while a factor in whether it is worship-full, does not determine whether YOU are worshiping while listening to it/singing it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And there are times when, ISTM, worship can degenerate into nothing more than "performance" (think some places where they sing, be it with cathedral choir or Gospel music; but equally think of other places where people go to hear the preacher rather than what s/he says). Equally "secular" events occasionally have the capability of morphing into worship* - IME seeing a semi-staged version of the Bach "St. John Passion" at English National Opera, or attending a dance performance of "The Protecting Veil" at Sadler's Wells.
*Not necessarily for everyone present, possibly only those who already have a Christian faith.
[ 23. August 2016, 14:18: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
As you may know, while the reader is chanting the Epistle, various stuff happens in the altar. I gained something of a reputation for reading quickly, which I worked to overcome when someone told me they heard the priest say, "We gotta move quickly this morning, Reader [Mousethief] is doing the Epistle."
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
We have one reader who has an amazing voice. A deep bass, with some formal training (singing). So when he chants, it's just an amazing experience. He makes the most of that voice. Another reader has an awesome falsetto, and when he chants it sounds more like Gregorian chant than more common Orthodox chanting style, but still pretty amazing. Unfortunately, our primary priests nether have beautiful voices (which, for an Orthodox priest, is pretty important.) Not that these priests are tone-deaf or can't carry a tune, but their actual voices are not attractive. also, sadly, our choir leaves much to be desired, overall, considering that it's a major cathedral.
In another parish, we had a priest who was known far and wide for his voice. that was a pleasure to listen to, and when he had to move on for various reasons, we lost so much! I can still hear him in my mind in certain parts of the service.
to me the quality of the music can really make a huge difference in my enjoyment of the service. I sing, but don't attend service consistently enough (at this time) to commit to the choir. but I still sing in the congregation as much as possible. Which is why I actually don't like having a choir that is so professional they sing versions that are difficult and hard to sing with. beautiful to listen to, but for me, more of a performance than worship. So it goes both ways.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
All good thoughts, Anyuta. I am both a tonsured reader, and sing in the choir (as a tenor). In the latter I can almost pull my weight. There is no baritone part and my range doesn't go to the top of the baritone range anyway, so I find myself switching between my regular voice and falsetto a lot. Which has less power and can be a problem if I'm all alone on tenor.
When I get to read/chant in my natural register I can really project. I also enunciate carefully. Old people have told me they like it when I read because they can actually understand the words. (At least since I slowed down.) Many of our readers are quiet and don't enunciate as well. Even I can have a hard time understanding them.
We have some priests that just don't project at all (we have far too many priests for a parish of our size). Fortunately most of what they say is canned so you can follow along either mentally or in the little booklet. Both of our deacons have great volume.
Our choir really belts it. You can hear them across the parking lot if even one window is slightly open. Sadly we find it hard to sing quietly where that is called for in the music.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
we have far too many priests for a parish of our size.
My sympathies. Have you tried getting a cat or two?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
we have far too many priests for a parish of our size.
My sympathies. Have you tried getting a cat or two?
Do they cancel each other out?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
A sung mass certainly helps to alleviate the boredom of a totally said service. Also, it helps to watch the clergy up at the altar - their actions (over the bread and wine, for example) are very symbolic and help keep your attention.
Anyone else have a church where dogs attend the Eucharist?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
A sung mass certainly helps to alleviate the boredom of a totally said service. Also, it helps to watch the clergy up at the altar - their actions (over the bread and wine, for example) are very symbolic and help keep your attention.
Anyone else have a church where dogs attend the Eucharist?
No, but I was visiting a shut-in once to deliver home communion, and the congregant was insistent that her beloved canine companion also receive some of the sacrament...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Did it manage to instinct? Or did it receive in the paw? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[ 23. August 2016, 22:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, but I was visiting a shut-in once to deliver home communion, and the congregant was insistent that her beloved canine companion also receive some of the sacrament...
I'm guessing it probably wouldn't have helped to tell her that was not possible unless the dog had been baptized. I can hear her now: "What is to prevent him from being baptized?"
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, but I was visiting a shut-in once to deliver home communion, and the congregant was insistent that her beloved canine companion also receive some of the sacrament...
I'm guessing it probably wouldn't have helped to tell her that was not possible unless the dog had been baptized. I can hear her now: "What is to prevent him from being baptized?"
Oh look, here's a pool now! (was he a eunuch by any chance?)
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
No, but I was visiting a shut-in once to deliver home communion, and the congregant was insistent that her beloved canine companion also receive some of the sacrament...
I'm guessing it probably wouldn't have helped to tell her that was not possible unless the dog had been baptized. I can hear her now: "What is to prevent him from being baptized?"
Oh look, here's a pool now! (was he a eunuch by any chance?)
Surely so, if she was a responsible pet owner. (Well, and if the dog was a he.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Was the dog able to confess his or her sins and make a profession of faith?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh look, here's a pool now! (was he a eunuch by any chance?)
Our dog HATED water ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Was the dog able to confess his or her sins and make a profession of faith?
Depends: would it be able to fill in the little card?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
'Yes, I see that paw ..'
'Now, I want you to pray this prayer after me: Bark, bark ... bark bark bark ... bark woof bark ... growl, growl, bark bark bark ... snuffle, snuffle, Amen.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Yes, I see that paw ..'
'Now, I want you to pray this prayer after me: Bark, bark ... bark bark bark ... bark woof bark ... growl, growl, bark bark bark ... snuffle, snuffle, Amen.'
(for not just G but the entire canine conversion riff...):
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
...or should I say "ruff"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Was the dog able to confess his or her sins and make a profession of faith?
How very low-church Protestant. His sponsors did that for him, until such time as he could confirm or deny their choice. We call it in-font baptism.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Would the dog be able to explain whether he or she has the right view on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father, from the Father and the Son, or even from the Father through the Son? Or would only an Italian Greyhound be able to say that?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Presumably the dog's ability to do so would be a test of its pedigree credentials?
Will there be a Kennel Club in heaven?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Bark once if you think the Spirit proceeds from the Father only. Bark twice if you think the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Bark three times if you think the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Bark four times if you are a modalist or other non-Trinitarian.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You're all airy-fairy liberals. Scripture clearly says "outside are the dogs" (Rev 22:15).
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Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Will they be the ones doing the Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You're all airy-fairy liberals. Scripture clearly says "outside are the dogs" (Rev 22:15).
That is used figuratively. In a society that had not yet come to fully appreciate the worth of dogs (they were shepherds, not hunters), dogs were not given the full measure of appreciation they deserved. As such the word "dog" was used as a euphemism for people the writer didn't like.
Jesus, on the other hand, was forced to admit that people feed their beloved pets scraps under the table, and proclaimed people who do this to have "great faith."
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Come now. The dogs are outside for the usual reason. When they finish their business, they'll be back inside and up on the couch, as usual.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
Funny the subject of dogs in church came up, as I was just reading a debate about whether service dogs should be allowed in church (this was in an Orthodox context). Apparently, strictly speaking, the only animal allowed in a church is a cat (presumably for the above referenced pest control). But I've certainly seen (although rarely) service dogs in services (or at least in the Narthex). Seems to me all animals should be welcome, as long as they behave. Seems to me God loves all of creation, and these creatures never had a "fall" away from God. but rules are rules, I guess. (probably just as well I couldn't bring my dog--he snored like a lumberjack and fated like.. well, I don't know like what, but he could clear a room pretty quickly).
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
My grandparents used to love to tell how they were gathered at the font for my father's baptism, when the saw the family dog walking down the aisle of the church to join them. He had followed them from home.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
Funny the subject of dogs in church came up, as I was just reading a debate about whether service dogs should be allowed in church (this was in an Orthodox context). Apparently, strictly speaking, the only animal allowed in a church is a cat (presumably for the above referenced pest control). But I've certainly seen (although rarely) service dogs in services (or at least in the Narthex). Seems to me all animals should be welcome, as long as they behave. Seems to me God loves all of creation, and these creatures never had a "fall" away from God. but rules are rules, I guess. (probably just as well I couldn't bring my dog--he snored like a lumberjack and fated like.. well, I don't know like what, but he could clear a room pretty quickly).
I was told by somebody who looked into the church rules on behalf of a parshioner who had a service dog that the origin of the rule had to do with people bringing their animals into the church in inclement weather kinds of circumstances, and abusing the privilege. Using the rule to disallow service dogs is a gross misapplication. And typical rules-for-rules-sake Orthodox bullshit.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The CofE has, so far as I know, never barred dogs. I can remember relatively rare instances of people attending church accompanied by a dog going back 60 years or so. However, the humans are expected not to bring a dog into church unless they can ensure that it will sit quietly and not draw attention to itself.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
*sigh* that was a nice thread we had about worship, once. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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