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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Sermon
Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I struggle with theology without suffering, without want, without cancer, without depression, without loneliness, without confusion, without the greatest sermon ever said, 'Me too.'.

And you don't think that's true for the rest of us ... including those who try with integrity to explore these difficult issues in sermons? Please cut us some slack - we are of course imperfect but I really think we try!

Glad that the Peregrines seem to be doing well ... our church has seagulls and we're not so pleased about them!

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I struggle with theology without suffering, without want, without cancer, without depression, without loneliness, without confusion, without the greatest sermon ever said, 'Me too.'.

As it happens, Martin, the sermon I was talking about in my last post—the one I picked up a copy of for my wife—was about suffering. And I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but I guess in some ways it could be said to boil down to God's "me, too." The gospel lesson from which the sermon was taken was the death and raising of Lazarus, with Mary and Martha's "Lord, if you had been here this wouldn't have happened," and with Jesus's weeping.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Alan Cresswell

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I always preach from the lectionary texts. Yet, somehow, I always seem to preach from Lamentations. A sermon has no meaning or purpose if it isn't connected to real life, and that is a life of pain, grief, suffering. The power of the gospel, and hence the centre of any sermon, is to acknowledge that and yet be able to declare "God is Love!".

How can I possibly preach on God bringing eternal life without acknowledging the young couple sitting a few feet away, still mourning the death of their son? How can I preach that without being just glib and irrelevant, if not to acknowledge that we all have pain and sorrow?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Leaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'm allergic to ALL claims.

This is a claim.
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Alan Cresswell

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It's an auto-immune reaction.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Martin60
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Superb guys. I spose that explains my Irritable Bastard Syndrome.

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Love wins

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Like seed that is sown, some falls on stones, among weeds or on the path. Some falls on good soil. I believe God is always speaking, I also believe that in certain places His words are more likely to take root in good soil.

Whether God speaks more often, or more clearly, through a sermon, or through other activities is a moot point in many ways. On a Sunday morning in the middle of the service the Sermon is there, the other activities aren't. As followers of Christ we should desire to hear his voice as often as we can, and to follow.

That's pretty language, inspiring and something to aspire to. Sometimes the soil is the problem I suppose, and sometimes the seeds aren't so good.

The "hearing of Christ's voice", I expect you mean figuratively and not actually. Which is what leads me away from this sort of understanding. I might see something Christ-like in someone else and what they say, but not hearing anything direct from Jesus, and suspecting that perhaps people get some sort of idea they're hearing something inspirational which they interpret and decide is Jesus, but it really isn't, can't be can only be Jesus-like. I think the identification of anything any human person says is pretty risky to align too closely with the divine.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Alan Cresswell

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How Christ speaks is a mystery, and you are right that I wouldn't want to align my words (from the pulpit, or elsewhere) with His. Yet, however He speaks, His sheep know His voice and follow.

Ultimately the test of the seed is the crop that is grown. It is by the fruits that develop in the life of the congregation, and the individuals therein, that we know whether the seed sown was good or not.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
How Christ speaks is a mystery, and you are right that I wouldn't want to align my words (from the pulpit, or elsewhere) with His. Yet, however He speaks, His sheep know His voice and follow.

Yet there are also wolves among the sheep, who if it were possible would deceive even the very elect.

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Alan Cresswell

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There are many false prophets, therefore we should test every spirit to see whether they are from God (1 John 4:1).

The sermon should never be a mere monologue, with the congregation simply accepting what is said. It should be critically received, tested against what the congregation already know of God. That may be done by each individual in the pew as they listen, may be done in conversation after the service, I appreciate feedback that's more substantial than "it was a good sermon".

Most importantly IMO is that the congregation have the opportunity to learn the faith. Not from the same person preaching week after week. A good library for people to borrow books of interest. Guest preachers with a different perspective. Occasional or regular study groups, preferably ecumenical in nature so we don't just reinforce some of the things each of our traditions haven't got quite right.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Eirenist
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To my mind the point of a sermon is, or should be, to encourage, the congregation to think about what they have just heard (the Gospel for the day, usually), at least, that's what I aim for. So many people seem to go through life half asleep.

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Martin60
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You come across as very old school Alan, conservative, evangelical (NOT Conservative Evangelical!!!), cautious ... and I don't believe it! I can't imagine your preaching as a lecture without interaction. Or at least without a free for all, question and answer session or something afterwards.

I see the "preacher's" role as far more diffident, a consensual lead in collective exploration.

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Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
To my mind the point of a sermon is, or should be, to encourage, the congregation to think about what they have just heard (the Gospel for the day, usually).

Why just, or mainly, the Gospel? There are 62 other books in the Bible to look at and learn from!
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Eirenist
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Yes, but they won't just have heard them, will they?

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Alan Cresswell

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Clearly, not all 62 books. But, most lectionaries will include a Gospel, an OT, an Epistle and a Psalm. So, probably should have heard them read (though the Psalm may have been sung).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Martin60
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What on EARTH is the point unless one uses the lens AND trajectory of Christ? Even the lens CANNOT make sense of the OT without the trajectory of continuous progressive revelation looping back.

There is some unbelievable Bronze Age horror in the Bible and I'm not even talking about God the Serial Killer. The Heresy of Peor (which IS God the Killer) and how it was resolved by Phinehas murdering a couple having sex. Jephthah sacrificing his daughter. The Levite’s Concubine. You know the stuff.

Why aren't they in the lectionary?

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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Good question.

I've been preaching regularly for nearly 30 years and have striven to tackle as many books of the Bible as I can. I think there's a lot to learn about how people attempted to interact with God even in the "bad old days" of the OT, and studying the later chapters of Genesis shows you that dysfunctional families are nothing new.

In the last year or so I have preached through basically the whole of Numbers and Ecclesiastes, amongst other things, though I admit to skipping lightly over the lists*.

(*Consider though for instance that it's in those mind-numbingly boring first eight chapters of 1 Chronicles genealogies that we learn that Uriah the Hittite was one of David's mighty men, i.e. David set up one of his best friends... and so on).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Baptist Trainfan
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I do think that in some (?Anglican) circles there is a tendency to privilege the Gospels above all else.

I also suspect that in some Reformed circles there may be too much concentration on the Pauline epistles.

[ 25. August 2016, 16:40: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Martin60
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I find it bizarre that one would do anything else. And even then we have to struggle to make the NT relevant apart from on the greatest and simplest, big picture scale. Why would we want to go further back in to an even more alien culture? A culture that Jesus was enculturated from, in, by by an alien epistemology, one that CANNOT work for us, in which He nonetheless CORRECTLY saw His story.

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I find it bizarre that one would do anything else. And even then we have to struggle to make the NT relevant apart from on the greatest and simplest, big picture scale. Why would we want to go further back in to an even more alien culture? A culture that Jesus was enculturated from, in, by by an alien epistemology, one that CANNOT work for us, in which He nonetheless CORRECTLY saw His story.

Really, Martin? I would have thought you'd be good with a sermon on, say, Micah 6:8 or Amos 5:21–24

[ 25. August 2016, 23:02: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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Aye Nick, the transcendence shines through there and in Job, Jonah, Abraham under the Terebinth Trees at Mamre just before the nuking of the FIVE Cities of the Plain, Nathan confronting David, in the social evolution in the 10 Commandments, in among the bloody horror, OUR bloody horror attributed to the only God we have ever known, in Jesus.

THAT is never addressed. Why not?

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Love wins

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Jengie jon

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Martin60

The idea that we are a progressive, modern society which has come a long way from Old Testament times is precisely why we need to go back to the Old Testament. It gives a perspective from which not only can we critique what happened then but we start to be able to understand our own cultural blind spots. The more disparity, the more we have to explain, the more we come to understand our own cultural blinkered nature. It is part of the revelatory process o a genuine openness to scripture brings.

Jengie

[ 26. August 2016, 09:51: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
THAT is never addressed. Why not?

But I do hear it addressed. And ignoring the OT, or suggesting that it would be bizarre to preach from it, certainly isn't going to lead to it being addressed more.

Meanwhile, what Jengie Jon said.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I do think that in some (?Anglican) circles there is a tendency to privilege the Gospels above all else.

I think doing anything else is a modern invention. Back before all of the books we call "the Bible" were commonly bound together, different bits were bound separately, and the Gospel Book was given highest honor.

This tradition continues unbroken in the Orthodox Church, at least, where only the Gospels sit upon the altar, and the job of reading the gospels in a church service is reserved for the clergy. In a service with multiple readings, the gospel reading will always come last, in the place of highest prominence.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I do think that in some (?Anglican) circles there is a tendency to privilege the Gospels above all else.

I also suspect that in some Reformed circles there may be too much concentration on the Pauline epistles.

Yes and yes.

I have spent a fair amounbt of time attending a C of E church and an independent evangelical one, with many ex-baptists.

Even in our low Anglican church the Gospel got prominence. We stood while it was read and responded with "Thanks be to God" rather than the "Amen" following other readings.

Our sermons now can be based on anything but the epistles are very popular. One can tell how popular some are because pages containing them fall out of Bibles first!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mr cheesy
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Some interesting thoughts here.

I think there is a difference between a sermon and a lecture (although some sermons do seem to essentially be lectures) in that sermons are intended to touch/change/engage the congregation whereas a lecture is intended to impart information.

Which, I think, is to say that sermons succeed or fail on the preacher's rhetorical abilities as much - or perhaps more - than what they've said, whether it hangs together logically and so on. A lecturer can legitimately be criticised for giving a talk with little content, but a preacher can have almost no content but repeated with enough passion to move the audience.

I'd then go as far as to say that the protestant ideal is of a powerful preacher who has the "almost magical" ability to move the audience. And this has (in general) led to the understanding amongst many Protestants of different kinds - and most Evangelicals (of course accepting that there are various definitions Evs use to define themselves etc) - that "faith comes by teaching", which is a claim that the Holy Spirit comes upon a faithful preacher. I think calling this idea sacramental is a very good way to put it - many Evangelicals who reject all understanding of the sacraments often use the same kind of language to refer to the preaching. Some even seem to believe that God solely speaks to the congregation when a man-of-faith is preaching from the bible and at no other time.

I don't know how far back this goes, but I suspect it has a lot to do with Wesley, the 17/18/19 century revivals and the rise of expository Evangelical bible teaching. Which, I think, might itself be a reflection of the ideals of the Enlightenment and (perhaps) a particularly European idealised understanding of Aristotelian rhetoric, statesmanship and ethics.

Other Christian traditions which did not grow from this time-and-place often do not have a strong theology of the sermon, as far as I can see.

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arse

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think there is a difference between a sermon and a lecture (although some sermons do seem to essentially be lectures) in that sermons are intended to touch/change/engage the congregation whereas a lecture is intended to impart information.

So, not so much a lecture as a TED talk.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I do think that in some (?Anglican) circles there is a tendency to privilege the Gospels above all else.

I think doing anything else is a modern invention.
In the Reformed tradition, it goes back to the Reformation. Of course, I realize that to the Orthodox, that may qualify it a modern invention. [Big Grin]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I do think that in some (?Anglican) circles there is a tendency to privilege the Gospels above all else.

I think doing anything else is a modern invention.
In the Reformed tradition, it goes back to the Reformation. Of course, I realize that to the Orthodox, that may qualify it a modern invention. [Big Grin]
Bingo.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
In the Reformed tradition, it goes back to the Reformation. Of course, I realize that to the Orthodox, that may qualify it a modern invention. [Big Grin]

I don't think it is a provable position that a "preaching tradition" goes back to the reformation, that all the reformation reformers believed in preaching (in the sense that many modern Evangelicals talk about it at least) or that all the churches which grew out of the reformation had or developed rhetorical preaching traditions.

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arse

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't think it is a provable position that a "preaching tradition" goes back to the reformation, that all the reformation reformers believed in preaching (in the sense that many modern Evangelicals talk about it at least) or that all the churches which grew out of the reformation had or developed rhetorical preaching traditions.

A few things:

1) I was responding to mousethief's post on primacy of the Gospels vs. other portions of scripture, noting in in the Reformed tradition, treating the OT and the rest of the NT on a more equal footing with the Gospels goes back to the Reformation. I was not referring to a so-called "preaching tradition" in the post you quoted, though it certainly does relate to preaching in that it led to preaching on all portions of scripture.

2) I can't speak from personal knowledge to how many modern Evangelicals talk about preaching or preaching tradition, never having been an Evangelical.

3) I didn't say anything about "all the reformation reformers" or "all the churches that grew out of the reformation." I referred only to the Reformed tradition, not to Lutherans, Anglicans, Anabaptists, Wesleyans, etc.

And I do think it is a rather provable position that the role and understanding of preaching, if that's what you mean by "preaching tradition," that Alan, I and others within the Reformed tradition have described can be traced back to Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and others from whom that tradition grew.

[ 26. August 2016, 13:17: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gamaliel
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There was a preaching tradition in the medieval RC church too, of course - the Franciscans for instance.

And in the pre-Schism Church of the first millenium, St John Chrysostom wasn't called 'silver-tongued' for nothing ... although some of his stuff about the Jews wouldn't fall into that category ...

On the Gospels having pre-eminence ... yes, that appears to be a very ancient tradition and one which the Anglicans have inherited from Rome - who presumably shared it with the Orthodox when the two Churches were One back in the day ...

Sadly, as with much else, some Anglicans have been flinging that one out in favour of themed preaching in a non-conformist style.

[Razz]

I mean no disrespect to Baptists and others in that respect. Some of the best preaching I've ever heard have been in Baptist and other 'Free Church' settings ...

But, at the risk of establishing a canon within a canon, I do think there is something in keeping the Gospels at the centre of things.

It's a caricature of course to see all non-conformists and particularly evangelicals as being overly Pauline and obsessed with Romans and Galatians - but I'm afraid there's a lot of truth in that nevertheless.

The Gospels are a particular type of literature - they function in a different way to an epistle. They are less propositional, there's Mystery there ...

All too often - and this is a Reformation/post-Reformation trait I can understand - there seems to be this rush within Protestantism to explain everything, to reduce everything down to a set of points ... whether it be a 3-point sermon or the five tenets of Calvinism (TULIP) and so on or the 16.752 tenets of something else ...

With a Gospel reading the text is allowed to 'breathe'. It stands on its own - or rather, set in its place or 'setting' like a jewel in the liturgy. It's simply laid out there and we have to deal with it.

Sure, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have expository preaching or anything like that.

There's a balance here somewhere.

It used to frustrate me when attending Orthodox or High Church Anglican services when nothing was explained and everyone was expected to pick things up and know their way around the liturgies and so on.

But I find an equal frustration with those very low-church evangelical Anglican services where the vicar seems to feel the need to explain every single dot and tittle as they go along just in case there's someone there who is unfamiliar with the service ...

It drives me scatty when our local vicar does that, particularly if there are only 'regulars' present.

The thing is, though, whether we use a lectionary or our own preaching-plan and programme we are always going to be selective. That is inevitable.

But quite frankly, I've been around the block too many times to be the slightest bit interested in what this, that or the other preacher's individual 'take' is on things. I couldn't care less. I couldn't give a flying fart - particularly when all he's doing is trying to lay guilt trips on people or exhort them to be more pious (as he sees it) in some way. I say 'he' because fellas are more guilty of this in my experience and female ministers less so.

No, give me the proper Gospel and epistle or OT readings for the day, thank you very much. Give me the lectionary. Every time.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Church architecture will often reveal a lot about the prominence different aspects of Christian worship hold. And, in many Reformed churches that prominance is given to the pulpit, which would stand above the congregation to a place where the preacher can see all, and be seen by all. Many older Presbyterian churches would have a sounding board above the pulpit, to amplify the voice of the preacher. Of course, in newer churches the availability of electronic amplification has increased the options for the architect - and, indeed for the preacher who may sometimes choose to preach from a different location (there is considerable symbolism in preaching from the lectern where the Bible is, or from the Communion Table - whether preachers consciously consider that symbolism is a different question).

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

And I do think it is a rather provable position that the role and understanding of preaching, if that's what you mean by "preaching tradition," that Alan, I and others within the Reformed tradition have described can be traced back to Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and others from whom that tradition grew.

Yes, I take your points and provisos, although of course some of these "Reformed" people were some temporal distance from the reformation itself.

I suppose it is a bit about how one views history from within one's own tradition: the Reformed believe they have antecedents right back to the earliest split with the RCC. And that these guys were well-known orators, and therefore are examples of a consistent tradition of expository preaching as it developed and is understood in that tradition.

My view is that history is a lot messier. These guys didn't (all) believe that they were creating/recreating a Reformed tradition (in the sense that the reformed/Reformed) understand it today or as understood for the last several centuries), and many had quite different understandings on various points of theology and practice. And they were just a subset of the various styles and ideas which bloomed in the reformation period.

Which I think is to say that at best certain individuals were known as being orators and that these have been subsequently understood as being important people in a developing tradition of church. But that's quite a long way from identifying the point (even amongst church traditions which subsequently became "Reformed) at which expository preaching of the bible became a thing which was very widespread.

As far as I can tell, very few churches had regular (weekly etc) sermons at the reformation. And I think few really did until the period of Wesley.

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arse

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Martin60
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# 368

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Aye Jengie jon, we need to recapitulate social evolution to find out how we got to be here. We only learn by suffering after all. Although the lesson of history is that there is none. We certainly need to put ourselves in their position, which means stripping away all assumption and trying to work out theirs.

I don't EVER hear it Nick. I have NEVER heard a Christ-centred trajectory deconstruction of the God the Killer texts in Anglicanism.

[ 26. August 2016, 13:48: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There was a preaching tradition in the medieval RC church too, of course - the Franciscans for instance.

Or more to the point the Dominicans, known from the start as the "Preaching Friars."

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

I don't EVER hear it Nick. I have NEVER heard a Christ-centred trajectory deconstruction of the God the Killer texts...

Hehe... be careful what you ask for, Martin: this is the topic of Greg Boyd's next book.

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Martin60
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# 368

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Then he's 15 years behind Brian and Rob.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Then he's 15 years behind Brian and Rob.

McLaren & Bell? Or someone else?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't EVER hear it Nick. I have NEVER heard a Christ-centred trajectory deconstruction of the God the Killer texts in Anglicanism.

That's of course different from an assertion that it is "never addressed." [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

And I do think it is a rather provable position that the role and understanding of preaching, if that's what you mean by "preaching tradition," that Alan, I and others within the Reformed tradition have described can be traced back to Calvin, Zwingli, Knox and others from whom that tradition grew.

Yes, I take your points and provisos, although of course some of these "Reformed" people were some temporal distance from the reformation itself.
Calvin, Zwingli or Knox were at some temporal distance from the Reformation itself? [Confused]

quote:
I suppose it is a bit about how one views history from within one's own tradition: the Reformed believe they have antecedents right back to the earliest split with the RCC.
That's because Reformed churches are, in essence, those mainly descended from the Reformation in specific parts of Switzerland and Germany, primarily influenced by Calvin and others in association with him.

quote:
And they were just a subset of the various styles and ideas which bloomed in the reformation period.
Of course. Which is why I made the point that I was only speaking of the Reformed tradition, not the various other strands that arose in (or after) the time of the Reformation.

quote:
But that's quite a long way from identifying the point (even amongst church traditions which subsequently became "Reformed) at which expository preaching of the bible became a thing which was very widespread.
I have to confess—when you say "church traditions which subsequently became "Reformed," I'm really not quite sure what you're talking about. I'm talking about those churches historically identified as "Reformed" (e.g.,the Dutch Reformed Church, the French Reformed Church, the Reformed Church in America, the URC, etc.) or Presbyterian (including the Church of Scotland), with some Congregationalists thrown in.

quote:
As far as I can tell, very few churches had regular (weekly etc) sermons at the reformation. And I think few really did until the period of Wesley.
If they were among the churches I'm talking about, they did, unless hindered from doing so by a lack of ministers. These are the churches that considered the true preaching of the Word to be, along with right administration of the sacraments, to be a mark of the true church. The centrality of preaching was, well, central to these churches.

[ 26. August 2016, 17:57: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Thinking about it, I have heard Orthodox clergy question a bishop as to why there aren't more OT readings in their lectionary, so there could be a perceived imbalance there.

Mr Cheesy makes an interesting point about the frequency of preaching in times past. My impression is that it varied a great deal from place to place.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Thinking about it, I have heard Orthodox clergy question a bishop as to why there aren't more OT readings in their lectionary, so there could be a perceived imbalance there.

Mr Cheesy makes an interesting point about the frequency of preaching in times past. My impression is that it varied a great deal from place to place.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Evangeline
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# 7002

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:
As far as I can tell, very few churches had regular (weekly etc) sermons at the reformation. And I think few really did until the period of Wesley.
If they were among the churches I'm talking about, they did, unless hindered from doing so by a lack of ministers. These are the churches that considered the true preaching of the Word to be, along with right administration of the sacraments, to be a mark of the true church. The centrality of preaching was, well, central to these churches. [/QB]
Indeed. My understanding is that in England, the emphasis on the sermon began with the Puritans, so a while before Wesley.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
If they were among the churches I'm talking about, they did, unless hindered from doing so by a lack of ministers. These are the churches that considered the true preaching of the Word to be, along with right administration of the sacraments, to be a mark of the true church.

*flashback to ordination exams* only time we American Presbyterians sound Scottish, when we're talking about the marks of the "true kirk" (often with dreadfully faux Scottish accent).

*end tangent*

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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Ok, the Zurich Reformation really did start with preaching on the Gospel of Matthew replacing the Mass. This is NOT Calvin and NOT Geneva.

Jengie

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I don't EVER hear it Nick. I have NEVER heard a Christ-centred trajectory deconstruction of the God the Killer texts in Anglicanism.

That's of course different from an assertion that it is "never addressed." [Biased]

Yeah, the clergy daren't explore it openly, publically. Those that actually believe in Solus Dei in Christo. I wonder what proportion that is?

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Ok, the Zurich Reformation really did start with preaching on the Gospel of Matthew replacing the Mass. This is NOT Calvin and NOT Geneva.

Well, I did specifically mention Zwingli and Switzerland generally, not just Geneva.

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
*flashback to ordination exams* only time we American Presbyterians sound Scottish, when we're talking about the marks of the "true kirk" (often with dreadfully faux Scottish accent).

*end tangent*

Ha! Although maybe we hear (and use) "kirk" more around here more than y'all do out west. I grew up seeing "If after kirk ye bide a wee . . . " every Sunday in the bulletin of the church I grew up in, as apparently did the writer of the page to which I linked. (And he in United Methodist churches!)

And we do have UKirk now.

/tangent—really.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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fausto
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# 13737

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
*flashback to ordination exams* only time we American Presbyterians sound Scottish, when we're talking about the marks of the "true kirk" (often with dreadfully faux Scottish accent).

*end tangent*

And even then only if you're not also wearing a United Federation of Planets uniform.

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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Then he's 15 years behind Brian and Rob.

McLaren & Bell? Or someone else?
Who else?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Ok, the Zurich Reformation really did start with preaching on the Gospel of Matthew replacing the Mass. This is NOT Calvin and NOT Geneva.

Well, I did specifically mention Zwingli and Switzerland generally, not just Geneva.


Nick

I was not getting at you, but the people on the ship who blame Calvin for everything they find wrong with Christianity. Calvin was actually a high churchman by preference and would have had the Mass (albeit Protestant) every week. Much Reformed worship practice is pure Zwinglian.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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