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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Sermon
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I was not getting at you, but the people on the ship who blame Calvin for everything they find wrong with Christianity. Calvin was actually a high churchman by preference and would have had the Mass (albeit Protestant) every week. Much Reformed worship practice is pure Zwinglian.
Ah! Well then, by all means please carry on. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(Though I will admit I'm counted among those who wish Calvin had won the fight on weekly communion. I'm thankful that in my lifetime, my corner of the Reformed world has taken significant moves in that direction.)
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Then he's 15 years behind Brian and Rob.
McLaren & Bell? Or someone else?
Who else?
I didn't recall either of them addressing the conquest passages-- what did I miss?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The point, as Brian said.
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Love wins
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The point, as Brian said.
Ah, yes, I know that book VERY well (don't ask how). And it deals with a lot of great stuff. But not the conquest passages.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It therefore does. That's the point.
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Love wins
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
I was not getting at you, but the people on the ship who blame Calvin for everything they find wrong with Christianity. Calvin was actually a high churchman by preference and would have had the Mass (albeit Protestant) every week. Much Reformed worship practice is pure Zwinglian.
Ah! Well then, by all means please carry on.
(Though I will admit I'm counted among those who wish Calvin had won the fight on weekly communion. I'm thankful that in my lifetime, my corner of the Reformed world has taken significant moves in that direction.)
I would have expected you to be. Any decent Reformed Liturgist I know agrees about that. It seems to me that there is an intimate connection between sacrament and sermon so that one without the other is poor fare.
The Reformed take on the sermon is mystical (only don't tell your common or garden member or they will be spinning like a falling cat with buttered toast tied to it back). It is not solely the preaching that is important but the hearing. It is only when it is heard that it becomes the vehicle for the Word in context. The congregation as hearers become active participants in the reception of the Word.
If you like there are three legs to Reformed worship: pastoral care, the proclamation of the Word and Sacraments.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It is not solely the preaching that is important but the hearing. It is only when it is heard that it becomes the vehicle for the Word in context. The congregation as hearers become active participants in the reception of the Word.
That sounds very Barthian to me. I'm not suggesting he was the first to say it, mind.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
It is somewhere in the works of Barth, but I actually traced it back as far as Calvin's Institutes. Oh, the joys of my thesis. I once asked my father for the Reformed understanding of sacred space and he said, "There is a line in Barth".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Ok, the Zurich Reformation really did start with preaching on the Gospel of Matthew replacing the Mass. This is NOT Calvin and NOT Geneva.
Well, I did specifically mention Zwingli and Switzerland generally, not just Geneva.
Nick
I was not getting at you, but the people on the ship who blame Calvin for everything they find wrong with Christianity. Calvin was actually a high churchman by preference and would have had the Mass (albeit Protestant) every week. Much Reformed worship practice is pure Zwinglian.
Jengie
There were some great cartoons of John Calvin on Calvin's 500th Birthday on the UCCan's French-language church websites. French Protestantism is a small world.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
People might be Barth-ing up the wrong tree, I suppose. It all depends on which side their bread's Barth-ted.
Whatever the case, I'm no expert but I've always thought of Calvin as fairly 'high' and sacramental by inclination in a high and dry kind of way - and yes, with some sense of mystery in his interestingly distinctive eucharistic theology.
But I'd Barth-ter get me coat ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
With a Bible in one pocket and the newspaper in another, of course!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
It is somewhere in the works of Barth, but I actually traced it back as far as Calvin's Institutes. Oh, the joys of my thesis. I once asked my father for the Reformed understanding of sacred space and he said, "There is a line in Barth".
When someone says "there is a line in Barth" or "I think Barth said..." or even "is Barth heterodox?" I usually respond "how would we know?". The man had some great things to say, but seriously, were they rationing punctuation in post-war Germany???
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Eh? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 28. August 2016, 22:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Eh?
You never noticed the excessive run-on sentences? It's part of the German language itself, of course
quote:
Whenever the literary German dives into a sentence, that is the last you are going to see of him till he emerges on the other side of his Atlantic with his verb in his mouth.
...mastery of the art and spirit of the Germanic language enables a man to travel all day in one sentence without changing cars.
It is easier for a cannibal to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the eye of a rich man's needle that it is for any other foreigner to read the terrible German script.
-all Mark Twain
...but Barth is far, far worse than most. It's like periods are being severely rationed and must be used only when absolutely necessary-- while commas grow on trees and are free for the asking. I used to use a highlighter to mark the subject of a sentence and then highlight the object half a paragraph later after the 7 or 8 intervening subordinate clauses it took him to get to his point.
[ 29. August 2016, 01:13: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It's like periods are being severely rationed and must be used only when absolutely necessary-- while commas grow on trees and are free for the asking. I used to use a highlighter to mark the subject of a sentence and then highlight the object half a paragraph later after the 7 or 8 intervening subordinate clauses it took him to get to his point.
I had the same problem with Melville in eighth grade when I tried to read Moby Dick on my own.
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
This is what I think of Henry James. Melville, at least, has occasional bright spots (such as the discussion of how one uses a whale's penis as a jacket).
AND returning to the OP--A good sermon will hopefully open up the Bible text so that I see more of what God is saying in it, whether that's something I never knew before or whether it's something I need to be reminded of (usually this ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ).
I am currently cranky with the sermon-giver I have to listen to most often, who apparently doesn't trust the Bible text to be clear or interesting enough to keep our attention; instead he must string together a zillion random anecdotes, mostly from the 60s and 70s, and with very little unpacking of what they have to do with the main point. It's getting worse now; last year he would start with a single anecdote, but now he gives us three in a row before every saying a word as to what he intends to preach about!
If I wanted that sort of thing I'd read Chicken Soup for the Terminally Inattentive.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If I wanted that sort of thing I'd read Chicken Soup for the Terminally Inattentive.
Quote file!
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Eh?
You never noticed the excessive run-on sentences? It's part of the German language itself, of course
Thanks, I see now.
All this (and having the verbs at the end of sentences) would, I imagine, make German a very difficult language to interpret into another unless the speaker was very careful to break up their discourse into short, precise sentences. (As a preacher I have to watch my own syntax as I tend to use too many subordinate clauses, which are hard for a congregation to follow).
I presume, though, that Barth didn't write in that Gothic script so beloved of German classicists?
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whatever the case, I'm no expert but I've always thought of Calvin as fairly 'high' and sacramental by inclination in a high and dry kind of way - and yes, with some sense of mystery in his interestingly distinctive eucharistic theology.
I am not sure about dry. This is the man who when he did not want to return to Geneva so made unreasonable demands asked for a cellar of the best French wine. He got it!
Oh, and as to his writing actually read him. He is not Barth!
To Cliffdweller
Oh in the case I am very sure he understood his Barth in German. You had to when arguing in seminars against T.F. Torrance.
Jengie
[ 29. August 2016, 07:13: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, like many Reformed and often hyper-Calvinist Christians in the US, Calvin liked a drop. These days, with the American variety, they seem to have a penchant for craft beer - which is fine by me, as long as it leads them to seeing the light and discovering proper British cask-conditioned ales.
I have read snippets of Calvin but must sit down and read him properly one day. I do know he's not as cold and arid as he is often portrayed but it all feels somewhat over-Scholastic to me. I'd have a similar issue with Aquinas and the late mediaeval Schoolmen, I think.
I like some Reformed and Reformed-tinged stuff but I dunno, I find it increasingly difficult to get excited about some of that stuff these days ...
I tend to read more poetry, fiction and history than theology these days but could do with reading more Patristic, more Schoolmen and mediaeval mystics, more Calvin and more of Luther than the farty and scatological stuff.
But then, life's too short ... The fart gags will do for me ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I can't stand beer (sorry Gamaliel).
But Calvin's wine-cellar definitely excites me - perhaps it was good Alsatian stuff!
[ 29. August 2016, 07:54: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Eh?
You never noticed the excessive run-on sentences? It's part of the German language itself, of course
Thanks, I see now.
All this (and having the verbs at the end of sentences) would, I imagine, make German a very difficult language to interpret into another unless the speaker was very careful to break up their discourse into short, precise sentences. (As a preacher I have to watch my own syntax as I tend to use too many subordinate clauses, which are hard for a congregation to follow).
To make matters worse, there is just so much of Barth to translate. Anecdotally, I was told that when TF Torrance decided to embark on translating Church Dogmatics, he basically farmed out 50 pages at a time to his PhD students - whether or not they knew much German. These poor youngsters slogged through it and got the job done, but with scant regard for turning Barth's excellent German prosody into excellent English. I am told he used to win literary prizes for his style!
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Then he's 15 years behind Brian and Rob.
McLaren & Bell? Or someone else?
Who else?
I didn't recall either of them addressing the conquest passages-- what did I miss?
How Brian addresses conquest in Everything Must Change, Chapter 19' end:
"To be a follower of Jesus in this light is a far different affair than many of us were taught: it means to join Jesus' peace insurgency, to see through every regime that promises peace through violence, peace through domination, peace through genocide, peace through exclusion and intimidation. Following Jesus instead means forming communities that seek peace through justice, generosity, and mutual concern, and a willingness to suffer persecution but a refusal to inflict it upon others. To follow Jesus is to become an atheist in regard to all bloodthirsty, tribal warrior gods, and to become a believer in the living God of grace and peace who, in Christ, sheds God's own blood in a manifestation of amnesty and reconciliation.
To repent, to believe, to follow ... together, these mean nothing less than defecting from Caesar's campaign of violence to join Jesus' divine peace insurgency."
You missed it by somehow not reading it in his works in which it is a repeated, relentless, unavoidable confrontation.
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Love wins
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, that doesn't address the problem with the conquest passages, it simply highlights the problem.
If we are to join Jesus' "peace insurgency" and reject violent methods, then that creates an enormous problem when it comes to the conquest, and other occasions, where the text says that God commanded genocide. The problem to be addressed is the diamterically opposed positions of a) God commanding genocide and b) Jesus commanding love and forgiveness. That problem is not addressed simply by repeating what Jesus taught and did, and ignoring the very uncomfortable message in Joshua and elsewhere.
I'm facing a similar issue preparing my sermon for a couple of weeks, with Jeremiah prophecying destruction of Jerusalem and God acting without mercy because of the greatness of the sins of the people of Israel. Contrasted with Jesus eating with "sinners" and seeking the lost, and Paul declaring the love of God in redeeming even the worst of sinners. I can preach the love and mercy of God from the epistle and Gospel, but am I being true to the written testimony of Scripture if I ignore the uncomfortable message of Jeremiah?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I fail to see the problem. Now. But that's me. I now fail to see how a postmodern deconstruction of Bronze-Iron Age religious myth (i.e. of stuff that never happened), from where Jesus, entangled in it, nevertheless picked it up and kicked it out of the ground and where it's still going in to higher orbit, is a problem.
And the problem was Alan, not that it creates a problem, which it doesn't, unless one has a problem, to bring to the party, which I certainly did, the problem was that 270-15 years of this theology has passed cliffdweller by until Greg Boyd decides to incorporate it in to his Gnosticism.
And I DO see the problem. Yours. Because I had it. Unless you're toying with me, and you don't actually have it. But I suspect that your question is genuine.
The answer is staring you, as it did me, in the face. Of Christ, mutely, on the cross.
There's no going back Alan.
Scary as it is.
[ 29. August 2016, 11:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Personally, I don't have a problem with dismissing the 'plain reading' of the OT passages as inadequate in the light of the witness of Christ. I have no problem with Christ superceding the earlier revelation.
But, I'm not going to assume that no one in the congregation in a couple of weeks is not going to see a problem there when those passages are read one after the other. Therefore, as a preacher given those passages I can not simply dismiss the problem, even if it's not a problem for me.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah HAH! Then you have a problem ![[Smile]](smile.gif) THE problem. How to sell the new truth ... to those that already have the old.
No chance Alan Nice, decent, even well educated, kind people will INSIST in believing the wrong things in the face of ALL persuasion. The more persuasion, the more they dig in. They even WANT the persuasion to sharpen their iron.
I did.
My experience is a tiny minority one and took twenty years of deconstruction. Partly because the tools weren't available.
We have to find ways of swimming with the far larger shoals, increasing the meme pool.
A postmodern preacher in a modern (and evangelicalism is modern) congregation has to compromise. Has to find what we have in common. And subtly SUBVERT.
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Love wins
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Martin how did you come to unearth my secret mission statement?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
...Greg Boyd decides to incorporate it in to his Gnosticism....
In what way do you see Boyd's theology as Gnostic?
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ah HAH! Then you have a problem THE problem. How to sell the new truth ... to those that already have the old.
It's part of a general problem that most, if not all, preachers face. That of taking the pulpit with a different understanding of the faith from the congregation. It may only be a small difference, it may be very large (and, the difference will vary from subject to subject). And, of course, the congregation is also heterogeneous with considerable variation between members.
If you consider the purpose of the sermon to declare what the Church (ie: the preacher) believes and convince the congregation the truth of those beliefs this may not be a problem.
But, when you consider the sermon to be a communal activity of the entire congregation, exploring together the meaning an application of the texts before them, then those differences may be a strength (in that it allows the congregation to assess alternative views, and either learn from them or learn from the experience of rejecting them, and hence improve the understanding of what they already believed), or a problem if it means the preacher doesn't bring the congregation with her on the exploration of the passages. There is a fine line between challenging the congregation to examine their own beliefs, and making sure the congregation stay with you for the journey.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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fausto
Shipmate
# 13737
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, that doesn't address the problem with the conquest passages, it simply highlights the problem.
If we are to join Jesus' "peace insurgency" and reject violent methods, then that creates an enormous problem when it comes to the conquest, and other occasions, where the text says that God commanded genocide. The problem to be addressed is the diamterically opposed positions of a) God commanding genocide and b) Jesus commanding love and forgiveness. That problem is not addressed simply by repeating what Jesus taught and did, and ignoring the very uncomfortable message in Joshua and elsewhere.
I'm facing a similar issue preparing my sermon for a couple of weeks, with Jeremiah prophecying destruction of Jerusalem and God acting without mercy because of the greatness of the sins of the people of Israel. Contrasted with Jesus eating with "sinners" and seeking the lost, and Paul declaring the love of God in redeeming even the worst of sinners. I can preach the love and mercy of God from the epistle and Gospel, but am I being true to the written testimony of Scripture if I ignore the uncomfortable message of Jeremiah?
If you read the Bible from oldest to newest as the record of a maturing human perception of God, grounded in the evolving culture and experience of the successive societies that perceived God, it is not difficult to recognize the evolution of Joshua's early perception of a tribal war god who helps defeat tribal rivals, into Jeremiah's perception of a covenanted national god who sternly guards the moral foundations of the nation, into Jesus's and Paul's perceptions of a reconciling god of all nations who harmonizes all differences and discord. It is also not difficult to see in the older texts both lessons that can remain relevant to a more cosmopolitan, diverse society (like imperial Rome or our own in the 21st century) as well as lessons that no longer serve their original function.
But that requires a hermeneutical approach that invests the text with the temporal limits of the authors' own human perceptions. That approach is not consistent with an approach that supposes every word of the text to reflect divine truths that are unconstrained, absolute, and timeless.
The conquest and vengeance passages of the Hebrew scriptures are only problematic to the extent that the reader infers that they tell us something about God's character that remains eternally true even in our own context today, notwithstanding changes in tie, culture, and human perception -- as opposed to something about the context in which they first arose. But that is a subjective hermeneutical suppostition that is vulnerable to skeptical examination.
[ 29. August 2016, 12:28: Message edited by: fausto ]
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"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way." Gospel of Philip, Logion 72
Posts: 407 | From: Boston, Mass. | Registered: May 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Baptist Trainfan ... Benjamin Franklin is supposed to have said that, 'Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.'
Whether he did or not is a moot point. I'm sure he didn't have Budweiser or Miller-Lite in mind if he did ...
Luther was fond of his beer too.
Alsatian wine? Sure. I'll have some ale too (although not at the same time, never mix grain and grape).
Surely another of these both/and not either/or things ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
...Greg Boyd decides to incorporate it in to his Gnosticism....
In what way do you see Boyd's theology as Gnostic?
He believes in the demiurge.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ah HAH! Then you have a problem THE problem. How to sell the new truth ... to those that already have the old.
It's part of a general problem that most, if not all, preachers face. That of taking the pulpit with a different understanding of the faith from the congregation. It may only be a small difference, it may be very large (and, the difference will vary from subject to subject). And, of course, the congregation is also heterogeneous with considerable variation between members.
If you consider the purpose of the sermon to declare what the Church (ie: the preacher) believes and convince the congregation the truth of those beliefs this may not be a problem.
But, when you consider the sermon to be a communal activity of the entire congregation, exploring together the meaning an application of the texts before them, then those differences may be a strength (in that it allows the congregation to assess alternative views, and either learn from them or learn from the experience of rejecting them, and hence improve the understanding of what they already believed), or a problem if it means the preacher doesn't bring the congregation with her on the exploration of the passages. There is a fine line between challenging the congregation to examine their own beliefs, and making sure the congregation stay with you for the journey.
Indeed Alan. Glad I'm not a preacher. All Anglican preachers in my experience, and that's ALL, play safe. I don't blame them, their pay packets depend on it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Ah HAH! Then you have a problem THE problem. How to sell the new truth ... to those that already have the old.
It's part of a general problem that most, if not all, preachers face. That of taking the pulpit with a different understanding of the faith from the congregation. It may only be a small difference, it may be very large (and, the difference will vary from subject to subject). And, of course, the congregation is also heterogeneous with considerable variation between members.
If you consider the purpose of the sermon to declare what the Church (ie: the preacher) believes and convince the congregation the truth of those beliefs this may not be a problem.
But, when you consider the sermon to be a communal activity of the entire congregation, exploring together the meaning an application of the texts before them, then those differences may be a strength (in that it allows the congregation to assess alternative views, and either learn from them or learn from the experience of rejecting them, and hence improve the understanding of what they already believed), or a problem if it means the preacher doesn't bring the congregation with her on the exploration of the passages. There is a fine line between challenging the congregation to examine their own beliefs, and making sure the congregation stay with you for the journey.
Precisely.
And part of that is taking it as a journey-- our own part of it as well as theirs. Which means sometimes we're going to take a wrong turn and end up in a dead-end. That's probably the hardest leadership challenge-- to turn around when we've already started out on the wrong path.
And in the case of the conquest passages, that really means having to confront central core, foundational beliefs. Basically, to take Joshua seriously, you have to reject at least one of these foundational principles:
1. The inspiration and authority of Scripture
2. The truth of Jesus' pacifist message
3. The hermeneutical principles used to interpret Scripture
For now I'm saying #3-- rejecting the hermeneutical principle that treats all passages as identical in authority and in clarity in revealing God. But it is a foundational principle we're talking about here-- so turning the ship on that is not going to be easy.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fausto:
The conquest and vengeance passages of the Hebrew scriptures are only problematic to the extent that the reader infers that they tell us something about God's character that remains eternally true even in our own context today, notwithstanding changes in tie, culture, and human perception -- as opposed to something about the context in which they first arose. But that is a subjective hermeneutical suppostition that is vulnerable to skeptical examination.
Yes, absolutely. But that is no small "if".
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Tangentially, I've found Rob Bell's recent multipart conversation with Pete Rollins (link to first mp3) "on God" really engaging.
I've previously found Rollin's (apparent) Christianised agnosticism really impenetrable and Bell's polished delivery really off-putting. But this conversation pushed a lot of buttons for me.
I don't preach. I don't hold a theology that says God is specially present in preaching. I don't think that certain parts of the bible are really worth reading. I'm not sure what I'm thinking of when I talk of God.
If that's where you are, Martin, then I'm there too.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
All Anglican preachers in my experience, and that's ALL, play safe. I don't blame them, their pay packets depend on it.
Including the ones who don't have pay packets? Interesting.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Here is a sermon by a colleague of mine which surely doesn't play it safe. (Scroll down past the prayer at the beginning of the blog).
I might be misinterpreting Martin, but I think he is suggesting that one would only be "refusing to play it safe" if one took the unacceptable position that parts of the bible were not inspired by God and/or not suitable for use in a sermon.
I can't really see that your Baptist friend is in the sermon you've linked to disowning the passages Martin finds objectionable. But then maybe I'm also misunderstanding your point. If so, apologies.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I don't and it doesn't.
OK, even acknowledging that there are some with preaching responsibilities in the Anglican church who do not receive financial recompense from it - there is still likely a point beyond which it would be unacceptable for anyone (lay or ordained) to step.
There is a lot of space and latitude in the Anglican system, but I suspect there would be rather a lot of resistance to the idea that God was not, in fact, acting in the OT when the text says that he was. I suspect one would get rather short shrift if the point was made that certain passages should not be taught as being having a theological message to us today, should not be taught in Sunday school and should not be used in preaching.
Now, I'm not clear if that is what Martin is inferring - but let's be honest - that's where I am. I never ever want to hear these things in church again and I never want to hear that they've been taught to children.
[ 29. August 2016, 17:26: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But then maybe I'm also misunderstanding your point. If so, apologies.
None needed! But I, too, sometimes find Martin hard to understand.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry Baptist Trainfan, perhaps I've become inured by sitting through so many sermons for so many years but your colleague's sermon, whilst not 'playing it safe' perhaps, is still pretty conventional.
I do feel sorry for preachers.
We're bombarded by so much - online, on the radio, the telly, that it's difficult to see what they could do to grab our attention ...
The sermon's fine, but perhaps that's part of the problem - however safe or otherwise it plays it - it's still a sermon. We can distance ourselves from it, put it in its place - in a church building - and keep it there for an allotted slot on a Sunday morning or a midweek service of some kind.
And there it stays.
I'm not sure what we do to rectify that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I frequently feel like that after I've preached, too. But - like you - I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps the real danger lies elsewhere, in that we have "compartmentalised" our lives and placed religion into a category marked "Private - for Sundays only".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I just thought I'd post a link about a recent, positive survey about sermons.
The link makes reference to a 'sermon of the year' competition. I'm not sure if I like the idea of sermons being pitted against each other in this way, in what must be a somewhat artificial context, but it seems to have generated wholesome media attention. The young winners and runners-up involved will obviously benefit from their accolades.
[ 29. August 2016, 19:03: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Here is my fairly recent stab at Numbers 31, which has to be one of the bloodthirstiest passages in the Bible, preached to my church, which considers itself evangelical.
The "argument" quote I read on the Ship many years ago, and can't remember who said it.
This is an on-the-fly translation from the French.
I'm not saying I'm satisfied with this, but it's the best I can do on the subject for now.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Eutychus - Thank you, it's very much the sort of sermon I would have preached on the passage. But, while it's a brave stab at trying to make sense of it, I think it still hedges some of the most difficult issues.
Please don't think I'm trying to "damn you with faint praise" - not at all, in fact I wouldn't have answered those questions any better.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It doesn't work for me - it seems to suggest (as I read it) that the Israelites were misunderstanding the deity and therefore the bloodthirstiness was a reflection of the people not God.
OK, well, I wouldn't preach this. I probably wouldn't sit around and listen to anyone else preaching it.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
No, that's fine, I put it out there to be torn apart.
Also as a personal example of how I try and preach with integrity in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary offence and yet opens up the way for people to approach the Scriptures in a different way to what they might have been used to.
I'm pretty sure that the responsibility of preaching to congregations (both inside and outside of prison) is at least partly a plot by God to keep me accountable, too.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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