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Source: (consider it) Thread: Serving the poor and saving the lost
Humble Servant
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My recent desire to volunteer with Christians Against Poverty (CAP) has got me thinking about Christian mission and what our priorities should be when we look to help those in need. I find myself feeling uncomfortable with targeting evangelism at those in need of our help, but I’m conflicted about why I feel that way.

This is not specifically about CAP; they are just my example. This is a general question about our motivation for offering help to others in need and then using that situation as an opportunity for evangelism. Do we have a responsibility to keep our voluntary work separate from explicit evangelism? Or do we have an obligation to God to do the two things hand-in-hand?

So I will use CAP to illustrate my perceive dilemma, but it’s not about that organisation specifically:
CAP’s core values are:
• Serve the poor
• Save the lost
• With the church
• Across the nation

The organisation provides free counselling for those struggling with debt, working with the lenders and the debtors to help people release themselves from the chains of severe indebtedness. The service is recommended by the likes of Moneysaving Expert, so it’s clearly meeting a need and "serving the poor".

Alongside this, the organisation targets their clients for evangelism, using the resources of the local church to attempt to convert them to Christianity. They make no secret of the fact that the value of “saving the lost” is on an equal footing with “serving the poor”.

Now I can see that it’s a good thing to share our faith with others. It’s good to make the case for God and Christ and to want and actively encourage others towards conversion. But when we are showing God’s love by offering our time and skills to people in need, is it right to target those same people in such an explicit way? It makes me feel that our motivation for helping is not pure generosity, but a concern for building church numbers off the back of others’ misfortune.

Does this concern others on the Ship, or am I being overly cautious in nailing my colours to the mast? After all, Christ came to bring good news to the poor. If Christ is good news for me, shouldn’t I be keen to share His gospel with everyone under every circumstance, particularly those with debt problems?

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Schroedinger's cat

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But you are sharing the gospel with them by assisting them in a difficult time. Why would you feel like you have to patronise them by explaining why you are doing it?

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Eutychus
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I've just spent quite a while on the CAP website and I can't find a statement of their values anywhere.

Googling "Christians against poverty" and "values" took me to this page (from 2011) which raises very similar concerns to Humble Servant's (and mentions the now unfindable values).

I suspect that the fact these core values have disappeared from CAP's homepage reflects an ongoing debate in the organisation about this very issue. It would be interesting to find out more. It's a bit alarming that such an organisation would not have its core values displayed prominently.

We had this debate where I am for a citywide social action initiative run by churches a few years ago, and there was a fair bit of disagreement. I insisted on separating what we ended up calling "explicit evangelism" from social action as the only way of gaining credibility with the local council (which we did).

There are plenty of stakeholders in the world of social action. It's stupid to pretend only Christians are doing it. Other stakeholders will be very quick to spot whether you have a hidden agenda of converting people.

My position is that blessing civil society with no strings attached is in and of itself a value of the Kingdom of God. You can say who you are and why you are doing it, and if it results in people starting to follow Christ, great. But that aim should not drive your engagement.

(I apply pretty much the same values in prison chaplaincy, by the way).

[ 03. September 2016, 08:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
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Schroedinger's cat. BRAVO!

As I was calling for an ambulance for an apparently comatose alcoholic and general substance abuser with 'demons' (strong, rapid mood swings: bipolar spectrum), having been homicidally attacked by his mother as I recall, as a child (you can see the rope burn scars on his neck 20 years later, where she HUNG him), making sure he was breathing as he lay with his head at a nearly funny angle against a tree (I checked that he HADN'T hung himself), one of the two nice women who came out of the church after me, where he'd been an hour before sweating copiously without exertion and crying and smiling and laughing, asked if we should pray.

I ignored her.

The world weary ambulance crew AND paramedic were great. One read him strait away as feigning it and he snapped 'awake' with a 'Kurwa!' at her probing, flipping from prone on to his feet, combat crouched, sweeping with his fist. The crew backed off and said to me they weren't going to attend to him, which I effusively endorsed. But one of the crew, who knew him, futilely engaged with him about their repeated historical offers to take him for treatment and I ushered the prayerful ladies to their car, after they'd gone I peeked round the corner at the raised voices and left them to it. I'm amazed he's lasted so long. Years. He's gone through full on, residential, Christian rehab, the lot.

That's how the evening ended. It had begun with my being greeted by an old friend who wanted to recount her Mamba induced fit to me that had happened the day before.

I was their salvation. Along with everyone else.

Anything else is risible hubris.

I don't how He's going to do it, because I cannot imagine resurrection as this world is as acutely, chronically, intensely, concretely, grittily, meaninglessly real as it reasonably, rationally, possibly gets, but if Jesus is, He WILL save ALL and it will have NOTHING to do with our delusions.

[ 03. September 2016, 09:19: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Lyda*Rose

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I was first introduced to this quandary by Shaw's "Major Barbara". It is still instructive.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Nicodemia
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If I collapsed in the street, and was helped by someone who said they were so doing because they were a Christian, I would feel rather insulted.

I would far rather they helped me because I needed help.

Which is why I subscribe to those agencies and organisations that do just that.

God can do the rest.

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cliffdweller
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I've been off my usual over-prolific posting this week because I'm at the annual conference of CCDA. The focus here is on "asset based" community development-- i.e. finding what is good and wonderful in impoverished communities and working together to build on that and leverage resources to improve communities and bring holistic healing and restoration. It begins with relocation-- living incarnationally among the poor, and is built on an attitude of respect and appreciation for whatever is good and worthy and beautiful in a community, whatever place it's coming from-- which sadly, is often not the church. Church planting among poor and marginalized groups is one aspect of the ministry, but pretty far down on the list.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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TurquoiseTastic

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I dunno. Say someone (for example) stuck up for my rights in the workplace. Say this person happens to be a very active trade unionist and committed socialist. Say that this is part of their motivation for helping me, and they are keen for me to join a union and become more politically aware.

I don't think I should necessarily feel used or insulted by this, as long as they're not using excessive "hard sell". It would seem churlish to say that their help was less "pure" because it sprang from their politics. Why wouldn't the same apply to CAP and other faith groups?

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Martin60
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I don't KNOW how He's going to do it ...

And I lie, it didn't start with Sharon and her Mamba fit, it started round the corner before I even got there with Lou rushing up as usual every month or so and waving a final demand for nearly £400 in rent at me and he had all but twenty quid thanks to some charity and he'd been to all the rest and Citizen's Advice and they couldn't help and if he wasn't in this situation and he had the money in his pocket he'd certainly give it to somebody who was and he didn't know what to do and should he take his home alone son now and go and live in the park or go begging in the city centre?

"Do nothing.", I said. That stopped him in his tracks for an extra breath but then he decided he'd have to "do something else.". Which he did.

This morning in the shower I realized I could have taken a picture of the bill and made some calls. I'll do that next time. Progress from my privileged learned helplessness.

Aye Nicodemia, He will. Because we in our utterly deranged arrogance as Killer God's personal emissaries certainly can't.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Schroedinger's cat. BRAVO!

As I was calling for an ambulance for an apparently comatose alcoholic and general substance abuser with 'demons' (strong, rapid mood swings: bipolar spectrum), having been homicidally attacked by his mother as I recall, as a child (you can see the rope burn scars on his neck 20 years later, where she HUNG him), making sure he was breathing as he lay with his head at a nearly funny angle against a tree (I checked that he HADN'T hung himself), one of the two nice women who came out of the church after me, where he'd been an hour before sweating copiously without exertion and crying and smiling and laughing, asked if we should pray.

I ignored her.

The world weary ambulance crew AND paramedic were great. One read him strait away as feigning it and he snapped 'awake' with a 'Kurwa!' at her probing, flipping from prone on to his feet, combat crouched, sweeping with his fist. The crew backed off and said to me they weren't going to attend to him, which I effusively endorsed. But one of the crew, who knew him, futilely engaged with him about their repeated historical offers to take him for treatment and I ushered the prayerful ladies to their car, after they'd gone I peeked round the corner at the raised voices and left them to it. I'm amazed he's lasted so long. Years. He's gone through full on, residential, Christian rehab, the lot.

That's how the evening ended. It had begun with my being greeted by an old friend who wanted to recount her Mamba induced fit to me that had happened the day before.

I was their salvation. Along with everyone else.

Anything else is risible hubris.

I'm not so quick to discount the efficacy of prayer or the motives of the church ladies.

Are they ignorant? Sure. So am I. That's why we pray.

Hopefully they stayed out of the way of the EMTs and the skilled professionals who DID know what they were doing.

But prayer is a way that we begin to change ourselves-- our ignorance, our complacency, our do-gooderism-- and yes, our hubris. Most of all, our hearts. Prayer is the starting point. It's not the end, but it's a first step.

Let them pray.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Martin60
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They didn't need my permission, I was busy. Being Christ.

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Love wins

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Boogie

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I strongly believe in the 'no strings attached' model. Our Church runs a soup kitchen 4 evenings a week. No preaching/anything except soup and company, blankets, sleeping bags and tents if needed.

In fact a couple from another Church volunteered, they clearly had 'conversion' as their agenda - they were asked to desist or stop helping out. They stopped helping out.

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Enoch
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Humble Servant, perhaps the people in CAP think the greatest gift they can offer those in need is a life changing message that will enable them to change, to live differently or to see life differently. Suppose they think that those who are in ghastly situations might just begin to turn round or rise above their circumstances. Then, over time they might not be so much at the receiving end of the material hardships their current lives have dumped on them.

If that is a substantial part of what motivates those involved, it would be a bit much to expect them not let that drive what they do, just because you don't quite see things the same way.

Or to put it in two different ways:-

If I think something is good news,
a. Should I really be expected to hold back from telling it to someone else, just because you don't think it is good news in quite the same way?
or
b. Should I be expected to recast that message so that it suits what you think, even though it is someone else I'm passing it on to, and not you.

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Martin60
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Unfortunately we do both Boogie. Luckily it comes to nothing at all. Especially with the Muslims who are told it's Jesus and nothing. They never come back. There's a God 'Space' at the end. Last night we were invited to contemplate Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac and what it tells us. By then Paul had stopped talking for the second week running about being asked to clean his trousers (not by any of us of course, they didn't reek of pee or worse after all). A fine adventure in wild speculation based on literalism missing the point entirely followed with a remarkably long detour from Tommy about dredging the canal following on from his previous expression of gratitude, going round the circle as we do, for nature in its ability to undermine your house with tree roots.

[ 03. September 2016, 15:16: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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SvitlanaV2
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Serving the disadvantaged without an evangelistic agenda is honorable and worthwhile, particularly for dedicated charities, like the one in the OP. But the evangelical churches that go down this route should be aware that mainstream congregations and/or denominations (at least in the UK) have already been there and done that, and frequently had difficulties.

It tends not to bring in very many new people; meanwhile, attention is diverted from actual evangelism, so congregations are very busy with 'good works' yet decline because there are few conversions. The work of caring as well as the financial burden end up falling on fewer and fewer people, which may be unsustainable in the long term.

Still, it depends on your social context. Some churches benefit from a good, ongoing level of stability, and are less at risk. For others, the most meaningful approach leans towards self-sacrifice rather than altruism, IMO.

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Baptist Trainfan
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I think there's a huge difference between helping someone and, if you're asked about your motivation, gently sharing your faith; and deliberately using social action as a "way in" or "bait" for evangelism.

There are times when it is perfectly valid to "evangelise"; and others when it would be unethical or even abusive.

A local Christian project offering help to vulnerable people acknowledges the need for all services for vulnerable people to avoid any ‘hidden agenda’ or ‘strings attached’ to the practical care on offer. It clearly tells its volunteers that some work undertaken by Christian organisations has been coercive. However it also believes that it is not coercive to use naturally-arising opportunities for exploring the Christian faith.

In other words, one must not in any way "press" faith onto people but nor need one shy away from discussing it if the conversation leads in that direction (although always respecting the views of the person with whom one is talking).

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Humble Servant
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think there's a huge difference between helping someone and, if you're asked about your motivation, gently sharing your faith; and deliberately using social action as a "way in" or "bait" for evangelism.

There are times when it is perfectly valid to "evangelise"; and others when it would be unethical or even abusive.

A local Christian project offering help to vulnerable people acknowledges the need for all services for vulnerable people to avoid any ‘hidden agenda’ or ‘strings attached’ to the practical care on offer. It clearly tells its volunteers that some work undertaken by Christian organisations has been coercive. However it also believes that it is not coercive to use naturally-arising opportunities for exploring the Christian faith.

In other words, one must not in any way "press" faith onto people but nor need one shy away from discussing it if the conversation leads in that direction (although always respecting the views of the person with whom one is talking).

Yes, this is similar to the tone of the CAP training. There is certainly no suggestion that clients would ever be required to attend a church service or event, so definitely no explicit coercion. But where is the line between being willing to share your motivation, finding opportunities to open up that conversation, and pressing it upon them whenever the opportunity presents itself? Invitations to attend church. Offers of prayer. Having a prepared testimony in case there's an opportunity to share it.
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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


If I think something is good news ... Should I really be expected to hold back from telling it to someone else, just because you don't think it is good news in quite the same way?

Yes, if they are not interested, of course you should hold back.

How do you know they are not interested? Because they didn't ask you about your faith or your motivation.

My husband (newly converted) once saw a bunch of street evangelists and muttered under his breath "for God's sake, shut up". He meant it, especially the 'for God's sake' bit - for the one person they might possibly draw in they put another hundred off even asking or enquiring imo.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
Yes, this is similar to the tone of the CAP training. There is (...) definitely no explicit coercion.

This is not what having "save the lost" as a core value suggests. I am not reassured by the absence of core values on the website at present.

quote:
But where is the line between being willing to share your motivation, finding opportunities to open up that conversation, and pressing it upon them whenever the opportunity presents itself?
I'm pretty much where Baptist Trainfan is and indeed would be interested to see the guidelines he mentions.

At the end of the day, I think it's in an individual's conscience. I face this all the time with chaplaincy recruitments and aspiring prison visitors. They've read something in the Bible about visiting those in prison and feel compelled to go and share the Gospel with them (they somehow fail to notice that in the parable, Jesus is already in the prison...).

For some evangelicals, the only valid purpose of any "ministry" engagement at all is to see other people converted to Christ, with everything else being a means to that end.

Somebody with such a conviction might possibly be a good evangelist, but they will not be much good at social action and will probably be frustrated and guilt-ridden while they're doing it, too.

I do lots of evangelising as a chaplain and during the course of social action, but I don't feel I've let God down somehow if I haven't explicitly mentioned the Gospel, or prayed with someone.

A lot is down to whether you leave other people the initiative (inmates frequently complain as I leave a cell "can't we say a prayer together?"!).

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Baptist Trainfan
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To my mind Elmer Thiessen's book on "The Ethics of Evangelism" (review here) gets it right.
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MrsBeaky
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think there's a huge difference between helping someone and, if you're asked about your motivation, gently sharing your faith; and deliberately using social action as a "way in" or "bait" for evangelism.

There are times when it is perfectly valid to "evangelise"; and others when it would be unethical or even abusive.

A local Christian project offering help to vulnerable people acknowledges the need for all services for vulnerable people to avoid any ‘hidden agenda’ or ‘strings attached’ to the practical care on offer. It clearly tells its volunteers that some work undertaken by Christian organisations has been coercive. However it also believes that it is not coercive to use naturally-arising opportunities for exploring the Christian faith.

In other words, one must not in any way "press" faith onto people but nor need one shy away from discussing it if the conversation leads in that direction (although always respecting the views of the person with whom one is talking).

I couldn't agree more.
This is how I have always tried to live wherever I have found myself, be it a Cathedral city in the UK or in rural Kenya.
I do the things I do because I believe they are the right things to do, the things that work towards the common good.
My personal motivation is because "the love of Christ compels me" but I recognise that many of the people I know and with whom I work come from a very different starting point.
I am really uncomfortable with doing something practical in order to garner an opportunity to proselytise.
But if I am asked, and only if I am asked I will attempt as Saint Peter urges "to give an account for the hope I have."
I have had some quite remarkable conversations about faith, instigated by other people.
I even have a few colleagues who continue to press me with questions and observations about faith. The more I try to ensure I don't abuse the relationship the more they seem to press in.
All a bit odd!

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http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


If I think something is good news ... Should I really be expected to hold back from telling it to someone else, just because you don't think it is good news in quite the same way?

Yes, if they are not interested, of course you should hold back. ...
Sorry Boogie, I don't think I've made myself clear. Too many pronouns.

I think you've understood me to be saying, 'should one person insist on imposing good news on another if the other doesn't want to hear it?'

What I was actually trying to say, was 'should A be expected to hold back from saying something to B just because C (casual critical bystander) doesn't think it is good news in quite the same way as A does?'

As a matter of technical grammar, that's what I said, but I accept one's got to read rather more carefully than one should have to so as to extract my meaning.

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Martin60
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I wish I'd pointed out the old rope burn scars to the ambulance crew.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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I don't understand why churches in the UK are so fixated with Christians Against Poverty and the Trussell Trust - both disgusting organisations with the intention of using poverty as a method for evangelism to their morally bankrupt form of Christianity. The sad thing is how many good people get sucked into this morally reprehensible behaviour.

There are better models of Christian service on debt and food distribution, the sad thing is that nobody really wants to use them.

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Martin60
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It's because the pews are aging out and 'evangelism' is the only lamppost diversion in town.

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Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand why churches in the UK are so fixated with Christians Against Poverty and the Trussell Trust - both disgusting organisations with the intention of using poverty as a method for evangelism to their morally bankrupt form of Christianity.

In our town there is a long-standing food project which has nothing to do with Trussell (and whose founder was recently awarded the OBE); we have a Night Shelter and now a Homelessness project which are based on two national models (Housing Justice and Hope into Action); a Domestic Abuse project is about to start which is "home grown".

The last three all fall under the "umbrella" of a charitable company set up to facilitate and provide good governance for local Christian charitable (but not evangelistic) projects. One church did run a CAP project but it died a death years ago; there is an ongoing Town (rather than 'Street') Pastors scheme which has been the model for several others; some Christians are involved in the local Credit Union.

And so on. None of these are seen as means for evangelism - although, as it happens, they have given the Church a much improved public profile (and alerted the "powers that be" to social needs which they formerly said didn't exist.

[ 04. September 2016, 12:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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Missed edit window - I meant to add that, though these projects are "social", it is evangelicals who are providing most of the impetus and personnel. I think this is because (a) the evangelicals are often strongly-motivated to "do stuff" and (b) their churches tend to be both larger and younger than many others.
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mr cheesy
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I wasn't really looking for an advert for your town, Baptist Trainfan. The fact is that the majority of churches who have debt services are associated with Christians Against Poverty and the majority of foodbanks are associated with the Trussell Trust. That's of course not in any way to say that other options are unavailable.

I know, for example, of several non-CAP debt services which offer training to churches, but these generally have very little take-up.

Which drives me nuts, particularly as you say other foodbank systems are available and which could be reproduced.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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No, I realise that ... I just wanted to show what can be/is being done outside the CAP/Trussell framework - as you rightly surmised. [Cool]
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sabine
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"let your life speak" has a certain appeal for me without the need to explain. Values can be shown through actions.

That said, there have been occasions when someone has asked about my motivations, and then I tell then.

And, when I worked for a certain social service agency where many of my colleagues spent quite a bit of time at the office assuring each other that they were NOT engaged in the work because of their spiritual leanings, I was one of the few voices in the conversation to say that I was.

Mostly, though, caring for others has enough built-in goodness that over explaining it can detract from desired effects (unless the desired effect is to encourage someone to feel that one's response to their need has more do with a personal belief than with their condition).

sabine

[ 04. September 2016, 13:39: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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We used to have a social gospel where Christian values met the political process. This was attacked by a social Darwinism where Christian values met the political process.

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Martin60
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'strewth mr cheesy, you sound like me! Steady!

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Love wins

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Makepiece
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quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
It makes me feel that our motivation for helping is not pure generosity, but a concern for building church numbers off the back of others’ misfortune.


It is very difficult to comment on another individual's motivation as we cannot see inside them but I certainly do not take the view that a connection between social action and evangelism should automatically be taken as evidence of tainted motives. A concern for a person's material needs would naurally go hand in hand with a concern for their spiritual needs. In my experience when people have shown genuine generosity the recipients are naturally interested in discovering the source of that generosity. There are many people today who feel that we live in a dog eat dog society and are surprised when they see selfless service in action. It is this surprise which I believe leads to interest in the source. At any rate people are going to infer that there is some source behind the act of generosity and if they do not attribute it to God's grace they will atrribute to your qualities as a person. It would not be helpful at all for people to misattribute the source of genorosity.

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quote:
Originally posted by Makepiece:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
It makes me feel that our motivation for helping is not pure generosity, but a concern for building church numbers off the back of others’ misfortune.


It is very difficult to comment on another individual's motivation as we cannot see inside them but I certainly do not take the view that a connection between social action and evangelism should automatically be taken as evidence of tainted motives. A concern for a person's material needs would naurally go hand in hand with a concern for their spiritual needs. In my experience when people have shown genuine generosity the recipients are naturally interested in discovering the source of that generosity. There are many people today who feel that we live in a dog eat dog society and are surprised when they see selfless service in action. It is this surprise which I believe leads to interest in the source. At any rate people are going to infer that there is some source behind the act of generosity and if they do not attribute it to God's grace they will atrribute to your qualities as a person. It would not be helpful at all for people to misattribute the source of genorosity.
Oh, absolutely, I've got no concerns whatsoever about saying that I'm here doing this work (whatever this work might be) because God has called be here to do it. None whatsoever. It's when that conversation turns into "and Jesus could do the same for you if you just pray this prayer and come along to our church service/church picnic". And that invitation is not a spur of the moment "actually, from what you've said to me I think this might interest you"; it's a premeditated looking for the precise moment at which to strike. That's where I find the motives get mixed in my head. But still I know that many of these people could probably do with Jesus in their lives - which is why I still feel conflicted about my uneasiness with this model.
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rolyn
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My late secular dad had a saying that went 'Never refuse an offer'.
So provided the assistance is truly selfless does it matter whether God is behind it or not? My personal theory now is that God is always present in such a situation.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
My late secular dad had a saying that went 'Never refuse an offer'.
So provided the assistance is truly selfless does it matter whether God is behind it or not? My personal theory now is that God is always present in such a situation.

Just to be clear - there is a difference between on the one hand offering a service as a Christian duty and on the other hand doing everything possible to convince those in need that a particular religion is the answer to the problem.

Christians Against Poverty are very clearly looking to encourage those who come to them with debt problems to become Christians and the training for counsellors is (or at least was when I looked at it a few years ago) very much based on bible study with the implicit suggestion that doing a good job at debt counselling would lead to converts.

But would we (polite society in general and the government powers-that-be) be so fast to support non-Christian organisations offering debt support services on the same basis? What if the JWs decided to push their publications along with debt advice materials? What about the Moonies or other sect? Satanists?

The British government is so muddled that it has fallen for this Christian-action-is-the-big-society crap that they've no painted themselves into a corner whereby they're supporting organisations which obliquely are intending to use service of the poorest as a route for evangelism.

It is one thing for a church to be very obvious with everyone about who they are and what the deal is; that we're doing this foodbank and debt thingy as part of our religious profession. Everyone knows what they're getting.

It is quite another thing when there is only one foodbank in a town, when it is being offered as a service to the poorest by a church without strings but where all of the information and expectation behind the scenes is that it will win converts.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Christians Against Poverty are very clearly looking to encourage those who come to them with debt problems to become Christians and the training for counsellors is (or at least was when I looked at it a few years ago) very much based on bible study with the implicit suggestion that doing a good job at debt counselling would lead to converts.

I have no remit to defend CAP - and, again some years ago, I heard a presentation by them which left me with very similar questions and doubts to the ones you raise.

However, and to be fair, they (or at least the speaker I heard) didn't quite put things in the terms of "using debt advice as a means of securing converts". His approach was more along the lines of, "For many people debt is a symptom of a chaotic life which needs to be brought under control. We believe that, if someone comes to faith, God will help them to do this as part of his process of making them 'whole'".

Now you may well disagree with this, but ISTM that this is a rather more holistic - if perhaps naïve - approach to the issues being raised on this thread.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have no remit to defend CAP - and, again some years ago, I heard a presentation by them which left me with very similar questions and doubts to the ones you raise.

However, and to be fair, they (or at least the speaker I heard) didn't quite put things in the terms of "using debt advice as a means of securing converts". His approach was more along the lines of, "For many people debt is a symptom of a chaotic life which needs to be brought under control. We believe that, if someone comes to faith, God will help them to do this as part of his process of making them 'whole'".

Now you may well disagree with this, but ISTM that this is a rather more holistic - if perhaps naïve - approach to the issues being raised on this thread.

I don't have the training materials I saw to hand, but I invite you to consider the words used by CAP on their own website:

The bumpf for Heather France, Regional Manager - Scotland & North and Evangelism & Discipleship Manager says:

quote:

Heather France - Introduction for a church talk

Today we’re going to be hearing about Christians Against Poverty. CAP was started in 1996 by John Kirkby and is now a national debt counselling charity, which also provides money education courses, and job clubs for the unemployed. They see thousands of lives transformed every year through various ministries including 306 debt centres and 849 CAP Money churches. Just to put that into context, their CAP Money churches alone helped 11,508 people and CAP debt centres helped 16,656 people in 2014!

Today we welcome Heather France (Regional Manager - Scotland & North and Evangelism & Discipleship Manager).

Like us, Heather has a passion to see the local church meet the needs of their community so people can be brought into the fullness of God through the local church.

Heather will explain the work of CAP, and how we as a church and individually can get involved and support the ministry.

Please welcome Heather France.

I don't see much evidence that they're any less explicit than they were.

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arse

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't see much evidence that they're any less explicit than they were.

They appear to be a lot less explicit than they were on their main website, on which I can't find the "core values" Humble Servant refers to - or indeed any values at all.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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Well OK maybe they've toned down their outward looking website, but the information they're providing to churches seems to me to be the same as it always was: ie that this is a charismatic Christian group looking to win converts by providing debt counselling.

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arse

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Eutychus
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That was certainly my suspicion, which has not been allayed by the lack of values on the site. This disingenuousness does not speak in their favour.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Boogie

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I suppose there's so much evil in the world - if some good is being done, should we worry too much about the motivations people have for doing it?

My motivations for my charity work are pretty selfish - I love the work and get so much out of it.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I suppose there's so much evil in the world - if some good is being done, should we worry too much about the motivations people have for doing it?

My motivations for my charity work are pretty selfish - I love the work and get so much out of it.

Yes. Because good intentions are not enough.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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And openness and integrity are important, especially for Christians.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My motivations for my charity work are pretty selfish - I love the work and get so much out of it.

Yes, and that love probably makes the work you do better than it would be if you were only doing it out of a sense of duty.

I think it's totally different to evangelists who engage in charity work with a hidden agenda of coercion and conversion (although I don't know how often that actually happens).

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't understand why churches in the UK are so fixated with Christians Against Poverty and the Trussell Trust - both disgusting organisations with the intention of using poverty as a method for evangelism to their morally bankrupt form of Christianity.

How is the Trusel Trust overtly evangelistic?
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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My motivations for my charity work are pretty selfish - I love the work and get so much out of it.

Recognising the "secondary benefits" one derives from doing this kind of work is a major part of having a mature approach.

As Baptist Trainfan says, being dishonest about the aims you hope to achieve for others is another kettle of fish altogether.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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ExclamationMark
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"By all means save some" That's fine so long as overt evangelism is not involved - or so it seems .....
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Baptist Trainfan
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Overt evangelism is absolutely fine and to be commended. So is doing "Christian social work" (for want of a better term). It's doing evangelism under the guise of something else which is the problem.
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Boogie

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I looked up the Trussel Trust's website, there is very little mention of their Christian agenda.

Their stated values are -

"values

The Trussell Trust is committed to community built on diversity, tolerance, cooperation, and mutual respect; we want to contribute to society and demonstrate social responsibility. Our values are important to us, and we aim to live them out in all areas of our work.

We are passionate about what we do and the difference it makes in the lives of others

We are compassionate; we give selflessly and put others before ourselves

We hold ourselves accountable: we acknowledge and assume responsibility for actions, decisions, and consequences – as individuals and as an organisation.

We are innovative, with the ambition to pursue new and creative ideas that have the potential to change lives for the better.

We empower and encourage staff, volunteers and clients to take the initiative and achieve their best, in a safe environment where mistakes are viewed as learning opportunities."

Which sound great.


This is the page which mentions their Christian roots.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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