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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Grammatical infelicities
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just looked up chairman in the OED.
1654 Occupier of a chair of authority (over meetings).
1738 The member of a corporate body appointed or elected to preside at its meetings, and in general to exercise the chief authority in the conduct of its affairs; the president.
1682 A sedan chair man.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Apparently the sedan chair was introduced to Britain in 1634. So that's 50 years of people going 'you know, chap who carries you around in a chair. Pole guy. Thingummy fellow.'
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the sedan chair was introduced to Britain in 1634. So that's 50 years of people going 'you know, chap who carries you around in a chair. Pole guy. Thingummy fellow.'
But the OED only notes recorded use of a term. So for fifty years people were calling sedan chair men "sedan chair men" but not writing it down.
Parish Officer:Can I see your *looks around shiftily and whispers* 'Sedan Chair Man's licence', please sir?
Gentry Bearer:Zounds Constable! I amn't in possession of one those for they don't exist, demmit, but I do 'appen to 'ave me 'Pole Guy Thingummy Fellow' docket. Will that suffice?
Parish Officer: Alright, step out of the Sedan Ch... errr... portative seating device, please sir...
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Three more that make me want to shout:
'Bored of' for bored by or bored with.
'X convinced Y to (do something)': no he hasn't, he's persuaded him.
'Z was reticent to (do something): I think you mean reluctant.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Not grammatical but amusing: a sign outside an "Eventide Home" (yes, that's what it's called!!!!) in our town which says, "Caution! Elderly residents". So you'd better come in prepared to defend yourself!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the sedan chair was introduced to Britain in 1634. So that's 50 years of people going 'you know, chap who carries you around in a chair. Pole guy. Thingummy fellow.'
The OED is giving the earliest recorded written example of a usage so the word could have been used in that sense in demotic spoken usage much earlier.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
On "University Challenge" last night we discovered that the word "scientist" only dates from 1834. So does that mean that people such as Newton or Faraday weren't scientists? Of course not - but they must have called themselves something else such as "cultivators of science" or "natural philosopher". Doubtless some people regarded the word as an ugly neologism and refused to use it.
[ 06. September 2016, 16:01: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the sedan chair was introduced to Britain in 1634. So that's 50 years of people going 'you know, chap who carries you around in a chair. Pole guy. Thingummy fellow.'
Perhaps there was some other term, and just don't know what it was, because we weren't there and are too lazy to go look up the references (I know I am).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On "University Challenge" last night we discovered that the word "scientist" only dates from 1834.
I'd have thought the word scientist would have been around nearly as long as the word science (in the same context). Interestingly (or not, depending on your point of view) my etymological dictionary lets me down here.
It states that the word 'scientist' was, indeed, adopted in 1834 and that the author adopted it "in the same paragraph in which he coined the term 'physicist' ".
When I "qv" the term "physicist", though, it says he adopted the term in 1836! It goes on to quote the paragraph in which he adopted both terms - from the book he published in 1840!
Still, at least he publicly used both terms more quickly than they officially named Sedan chair carriers!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927
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Posted
Extra prepositions which add nothing to the sentence and which interrupt the flow of the sentence. Two in particular seem to have landed recently in Australia, although I have seen their use for years.
Examples. "He picked up the hat off of the table." Why not just say from the table?
"Hate on" or "love on." Just why??
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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.
Posts: 9745 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Three more that make me want to shout:
'Bored of' for bored by or bored with.
'X convinced Y to (do something)': no he hasn't, he's persuaded him.
'Z was reticent to (do something): I think you mean reluctant.
I'm right with you on the first two – I haven't heard the 'reticent' one.
Currently I'm reading a serious study of English vocabulary elements. In a chapter on 'Usage and Variation' the author says: Some experts act as if there is only one standard – theirs. This is so far from the truth that it is silly. The varieties of English that they habitually ignore (regional dialects, ethnical dialects, local variants) are just as valid, useful, and appropriate in their contexts as standard formal English is in its contexts.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
[...] "Hate on" or "love on." Just why??
How is that being used then, Loth?
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Three more that make me want to shout:
'Bored of' for bored by or bored with.
'X convinced Y to (do something)': no he hasn't, he's persuaded him.
'Z was reticent to (do something): I think you mean reluctant.
For me it's "different than" or "different to".
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Three more that make me want to shout:
'Bored of' for bored by or bored with.
'X convinced Y to (do something)': no he hasn't, he's persuaded him.
'Z was reticent to (do something): I think you mean reluctant.
For me it's "different than" or "different to".
Different than just sounds wrong; different to doesn't bother me. I have no problem with X convinced Y either - there's a subtle difference but both can be valid. If I hear "X convinced Y to do something" then I take it to mean that X persuaded Y that doing that thing was the right thing to do; it's a bit stronger than "persuaded" which might just mean that he bunged him a tenner to do it and he said "OK then".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have no problem with X convinced Y either - there's a subtle difference but both can be valid. If I hear "X convinced Y to do something" then I take it to mean that X persuaded Y that doing that thing was the right thing to do; it's a bit stronger than "persuaded" which might just mean that he bunged him a tenner to do it and he said "OK then".
The problem is that 'persuaded' takes an infinitive, "I persuaded him to do that." while "convinced" takes a following clause, "I convinced him that he should do that."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have no problem with X convinced Y either - there's a subtle difference but both can be valid. If I hear "X convinced Y to do something" then I take it to mean that X persuaded Y that doing that thing was the right thing to do; it's a bit stronger than "persuaded" which might just mean that he bunged him a tenner to do it and he said "OK then".
The problem is that 'persuaded' takes an infinitive, "I persuaded him to do that." while "convinced" takes a following clause, "I convinced him that he should do that."
Moo
Says who?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Extra prepositions which add nothing to the sentence and which interrupt the flow of the sentence. Two in particular seem to have landed recently in Australia, although I have seen their use for years.
Examples. "He picked up the hat off of the table." Why not just say from the table?
"Hate on" or "love on." Just why??
Another common one, which I dislike is to "meet with" someone. Isn't it enough to meet them?
This is in a civil service department in the UK. "Never use ten words when two hundred will do" appears to be our style guide.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another common one, which I dislike is to "meet with" someone. Isn't it enough to meet them?
I interpret this as having the specific meaning of "having a meeting with someone". It doesn't sound quite right to say "I met Jim, Brendan and Sunita" when you're talking about the people you've just had a meeting with, as it sounds more as if you've just made their acquaintance for the first time. "I had a meeting with Jim, Brendan and Sunita" is really what should be said, except that when you're a high-powered exec who's pressed for time it's quicker just to say "I met with" and save two seconds.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curious Kitten
Shipmate
# 11953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
So does that mean that people such as Newton or Faraday weren't scientists? Of course not - but they must have called themselves something else such as "cultivators of science" or "natural philosopher".
This video uses the term "experimental philosopher" to refer to a physicist from Oxford who purchased the Oxford Electric Bell in 1840.
Posts: 107 | Registered: Oct 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another common one, which I dislike is to "meet with" someone. Isn't it enough to meet them?
I interpret this as having the specific meaning of "having a meeting with someone". It doesn't sound quite right to say "I met Jim, Brendan and Sunita" when you're talking about the people you've just had a meeting with, as it sounds more as if you've just made their acquaintance for the first time. "I had a meeting with Jim, Brendan and Sunita" is really what should be said, except that when you're a high-powered exec who's pressed for time it's quicker just to say "I met with" and save two seconds.
A fascinating example of so-called 'syntactic blends', whereby different constructions start to blend with each other. It sounds correct that 'meet with' is by analogy with 'have a meeting with', although I don't know if people say it of friends. 'I met with John last night in the pub' sounds odd to me, but that's just my dialect/idiolect.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
To me, "I met with John" sounds as if this was a prearranged meeting and you had an Important Matter to discuss; "I met John" sounds as if you bumped into him by chance.
"I met up with John" sounds prearranged but more social - we'd been meaning to have some time together and we finally managed to do so.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
To me, "I met with John" sounds as if this was a prearranged meeting and you had an Important Matter to discuss; "I met John" sounds as if you bumped into him by chance.
"I met up with John" sounds prearranged but more social - we'd been meaning to have some time together and we finally managed to do so.
Yes, that's how I take it, (although not 'by chance'), but it's possible that 'meet with' might start to 'leak' into informal situations. Language is pretty leaky in this way. My old professor did research on syntactic blends, and it is pretty interesting, well, for nerds.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
From the radio this morning:
"That's a savings of more than 15% off".
- No, it's a saving.
- It is quite sufficient to save 15% - you don't need to save 15% off.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have no problem with X convinced Y either - there's a subtle difference but both can be valid. If I hear "X convinced Y to do something" then I take it to mean that X persuaded Y that doing that thing was the right thing to do; it's a bit stronger than "persuaded" which might just mean that he bunged him a tenner to do it and he said "OK then".
The problem is that 'persuaded' takes an infinitive, "I persuaded him to do that." while "convinced" takes a following clause, "I convinced him that he should do that."
Moo
Says who?
This is the usage I am accustomed to hearing. Sometimes I hear 'convince' used with an infinitive, but it's rare and jarring.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
From the radio this morning:
"That's a savings of more than 15% off".
- No, it's a saving.
- It is quite sufficient to save 15% - you don't need to save 15% off.
I have never heard/read "saving" used in that context. It is always "savings". Is this a pond thing, I wonder?
With you on the unnecessary "off".
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Why is everyone now 'reaching out' to everyone else when in fact they are just phoning or writing or e-mailing? I can just about take 'making contact' but 'reaching out' is becoming absurd.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I want to know why in the hell all the freaking catalogues write "pant" and "short" instead of "pants" and "shorts." Oh, and "trouser" too.
Do they think we've suddenly all grown single legs, like Monopods?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Another common one, which I dislike is to "meet with" someone. Isn't it enough to meet them?
I interpret this as having the specific meaning of "having a meeting with someone". It doesn't sound quite right to say "I met Jim, Brendan and Sunita" when you're talking about the people you've just had a meeting with, as it sounds more as if you've just made their acquaintance for the first time. "I had a meeting with Jim, Brendan and Sunita" is really what should be said, except that when you're a high-powered exec who's pressed for time it's quicker just to say "I met with" and save two seconds.
A fascinating example of so-called 'syntactic blends', whereby different constructions start to blend with each other. It sounds correct that 'meet with' is by analogy with 'have a meeting with', although I don't know if people say it of friends. 'I met with John last night in the pub' sounds odd to me, but that's just my dialect/idiolect.
Thanks everyone. I hadn't considered that level of subtlety at all. Not for the first time I learn something on the Ship.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Just heard on the BBC News (an item about refurbishments at the Houses of Parliament): "MPs will shortly be leaving the House of Commons for repairs".
Presumably ambulances, wheelchairs, stretchers and crutches will be available to help them off the premises?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have no problem with X convinced Y either - there's a subtle difference but both can be valid. If I hear "X convinced Y to do something" then I take it to mean that X persuaded Y that doing that thing was the right thing to do; it's a bit stronger than "persuaded" which might just mean that he bunged him a tenner to do it and he said "OK then".
The problem is that 'persuaded' takes an infinitive, "I persuaded him to do that." while "convinced" takes a following clause, "I convinced him that he should do that."
Moo
Says who?
Says everyone in my youth and middle years, until maybe a couple of decades ago.
Just one part of the flood of grammatical infelicities that causes rising blood pressure in retired English teachers and others who care about losing the subtleties of our most expressive language.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On "University Challenge" last night we discovered that the word "scientist" only dates from 1834. So does that mean that people such as Newton or Faraday weren't scientists? Of course not - but they must have called themselves something else such as "cultivators of science" or "natural philosopher". Doubtless some people regarded the word as an ugly neologism and refused to use it.
Back in another century when the dinosaurs still roamed and I was a student, there was no such thing as physics at Aberdeen University. We did, however, have a flourishing Department of Natural Philosophy.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If we're doing universities, how did we get credit units? And my I never hear of another disaster with a silver lining. Nor of the oil patch. And how is a deposit into a bank account units of a financial product?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
"Back in the day" The indefinite, not definite, article is more appropriate.
It used to be 'Back in the days when...'
Back in the day is a neologism and never sounds quite right to me.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
A sign seen at Boots the Chemists this morning:
EYE TESTS AVAILABLE TODAY*
(in small type at the bottom:)
*subject to availability.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 09. September 2016, 12:49: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Does anyone else get irritated at Simon and Garfunkel's "Homeward bound"? "And I wish I was..homeward bound..".I always want them to sing "I wish I were...".
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Of course! Subjunctive rules! Same thing in "What if God was one of us . . . (Just a slob like one of us)." ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) It's "What if God were one of us," you dolt!
because I seriously doubt that God is a slob.
(Idea for a tangential thread: Are there places or things in creation that suggest that God just might be a slob after all?)
[ 09. September 2016, 14:54: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
"If I were a butterfly ..." ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Or "If I were a rich man."
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
"If I were a fuzzy buzzy bee..."
Edited because, of course, bees are not just buzzy.
[ 09. September 2016, 18:50: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
From the radio this morning:
"That's a savings of more than 15% off".
- No, it's a saving.
- It is quite sufficient to save 15% - you don't need to save 15% off.
Worse is "...up to X or more"
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
And so to that part of an evening in early September when the crowds in a packed Royal Albert Hall join in rousing choruses of "Rule Britannia! Britannia rule the waves!"
Each year without fail, half of them sings "Britons never, never, never will be slaves!" and the other half sings "Britons never, never, never shall be slaves!" and neither half knows which half is right!
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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