|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: October bookclub - Hogarth Shakespeares
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I did suggest Howard Jacobson's Shylock is My Name, a retelling of A Merchant of Venice for this but Sarasa is struggling to read it, so we wondered if we should discuss the whole range of the Hogarth Shakespeares instead.
The Hogarth Shakespeares, which are still being published, are a series of contemporary books retelling the stories depicted in the Shakespeare plays.. Also out now are:
Anne Tyler's Vinegar Girl retelling The Taming of the Shrew
Jeanette Winterson's The Gap of Time retelling The Winter's Tale.
The Jacobson and Winterson are out in paperback.
The series will continue with Jo Nesbo on Macbeth, Margaret Attwood on The Tempest, Tracy Chevalier on Othello, Edward St. Aubyn on King Lear and Gillian Flynn on Hamlet.
(First I need to find my copy, but my last week was *interesting* in the Chinese proverb kind of way, so I'm currently feeling a bit punch drunk.)
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
Yep, I've all but given up on Shylock is my Name, but its interesting that some people on GoodReads really love it while others don't, so a marmite of a book. I enjoyed the Anne Tyler which is the only other one I've, but it was far from her best book.
Do you think you can re-tell Shakespear, Austen etc succesfully, or use the characters in other plots succesfully?
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
I've also read Tyler's Vinegar Girl and enjoyed it (my review is here) but I agree, I don't like it as much as her other novels. I think she did make a valid point in an interview I read (I think I linked to it in that blog post actually) -- that there's an inherent weirdness about the Hogarth Shakespeare project. By getting other writers to retell the stories, you're left with what are usually the weakest elements of most of the plays -- the plots, which he took from other sources anyway and are often quite flimsy -- and taking away Shakespeare's language, which is what has really kept the plays alive for 400+ years.
That said, I'm intrigued by the series and will read others, having thought Anne Tyler's was well done. So I may give Shylock a try.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarasa:
Do you think you can re-tell Shakespear succesfully, or use the characters in other plots succesfully?
Can you re-tell Shakespeare? Given that many of his plays were based on well-worn stories themselves, I suppose you'd just be following in his footsteps.
Using the characters becomes trickier. Shakespeare's plays endure because he was a master at creating complete human characters with which to populate the old stock plays he worked with.
(Glib and oversimplified? Sure. But I stand by it.)
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
To continue with the theme of stock plays, the other thing I saw at the weekend (other than a production of Cymbeline renamed Imogen) was The Taming of A Shrew (Anon) part of the Shakespeare's Globe Read not Dead series. it was very similar to The Taming of the Shrew, albeit shorter, and the programme notes that accompanied it pointed to the folk tradition of taming wives.
[ 04. October 2016, 03:16: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Using the characters becomes trickier. Shakespeare's plays endure because he was a master at creating complete human characters with which to populate the old stock plays he worked with.
My Shakespeare class at the Senior Center is currently studying Two Gentlemen of Verona. I think the best thing about the play is that it is good theater; it keeps the audience attention. I don't think that much of the characterization.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My Shakespeare class at the Senior Center is currently studying Two Gentlemen of Verona. I think the best thing about the play is that it is good theater; it keeps the audience attention. I don't think that much of the characterization.
Moo
But there's a dog.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
If Two Gents was the best thing he ever wrote, would Shakespeare be mandatory reading in schools around the Anglophone world, or just someone you spend a few days on in an upper-level University seminar?
I'm not saying it's not a good play, it's just not an example of why Shakespeare looms over all English language authors.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
There are some good re-uses of Shakespeare's characters--I've enjoyed the short stories in Monstrous Little Voices, and I've seen others that are well done. In fact I'd like to try my hand myself!
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
I've just downloaded Nutshell, Ian McEwan's take on Hamlet for the Hogarth Shakepeare series. I was wondering if my problems with My Name is Shylock were due to my unfamiliarity with the original play. Hamlet is the Shakepeare play I know the best, so I'm looking forward to McEwan's take on the story. McEwan is far from my favourite author though, so maybe it will be another one I struggle with.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
Harold Bloom has criticized the modern need to make Shylock a sympathetic character. Shakespeare's audience would have been used to plays that concluded with a Jewish character (portrayed by an actor in a curly wig and fake nose) as the clear and deserving loser. The whole bit where Shylock is the tragic hero is totally modern. This might pose some challenges to anyone wanting to write a stomachable modern retelling.
I love a lot about that play, but if you are honest about it, there is a lot not to like.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Not totally modern--that bit about "Hath not a Jew eyes?" is designed to bring you, for the moment, past the stereotype and get some idea of what it must have been like. Shylock has more to him than just a villain, and that by Shakespeare's design.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
Shylock is a powerful character, and he gets some great speeches.
But he's just the villain. A really well written villain- Shakespeare does those well. But a villain.
Because if he is something other than a villain, what does that make Portia, who is supposed to be the real hero of the play? What do we think when she takes someone who we pretend is a sympathetic character, humiliates him before the audience, and then forces him to convert to Christianity?
It's OK to be uncomfortable with the result of the play, and the idea that the Jewish person is a villain mostly because he is Jewish. But as compelling as he is, it screws up the whole play if the lovers only get together by humiliating an admirable and sympathetic character.
I probably won't get around to reading "I am Shylock" to be honest, so I don't actually know if this is a theme of the book. Any thoughts on that?
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
According to one of the talks I attended at the Globe last year (or maybe it was the study day, I'd have to dig out the notes) the play Shakespeare ripped off to write The Merchant of Venice was The Jew of Malta. That plot has the Jew's wife killed by the roistering merchants, which is why he is so angry and bitter when his daughter marries one of that number and makes sense of some of Shylock's lines. (This doesn't tie up with what Wikipedia says about The Jew of Malta and I'd have to dig out notes to check it, but not when I'm due to leave for Guides)
Some of the interpretations given at the Globe last year (and again in the next few weeks) do have Shylock portrayed sympathetically.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
I doubt that I'll be reading the book in the near future, but I'll be seeing "The Merchant of Venice" twice later this month. I'll report back on how the characters, especially Shylock, are portrayed.
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
If Two Gents was the best thing he ever wrote, would Shakespeare be mandatory reading in schools around the Anglophone world, or just someone you spend a few days on in an upper-level University seminar?
Too true
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Margaret Atwood's new book 'Hag-Seed' is a part of this series, and on Saturday I went to the Royal Shakespeare Theatre to listen to the author, and also enjoy the thrill of receiving a signed copy from her very own hand!
I confess I'm not a previous reader of Margaret Atwood's work, but the chance to visit a neighbouring town to see one of the most highly acclaimed Anglophone writers of our age was just too good to pass up.
'Hag-Seed' will remain unread for some time, though, since it has to join a lengthening queue on my shelves, but for me, the joy of anticipation is part of the pleasure that books offer.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
How lovely SvitlanV2, I've admired (not sure I can say liked) the Margaret Atwood books I've read, and I noticed she'd done one for this series. I might download it after I've finished Ian McEwan's take on Hamlet, which is...well...odd.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marama
Shipmate
# 330
|
Posted
I started 'My Name is Shylock', but have gone back to reading the 'Merchant of Venice ' again before I go any further. It was one of the first Shakespeare plays I read, but that was a long time ago, and I haven't seen it for a many years either. You think you know it because of the casket scene and 'the quality of mercy' scene, but there's a lot more going on. It's billed as a comedy, but is rather darker than I remembered.
From the first three chapters of 'My Name is Shylock' it seems Jacobson is inverting the original, rather than retelling it, but it may be too early to tell.
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
Has anyone finished My Name is Shylock? To get the most out of it I think I too would have to go back to The Merchant of Venice, and I don't think I liked what I'd read so far to bother.
I did finish Nutshell, Ian McEwan's take on Hamlet, which was OK. I don't think having it told from the point of view of a fetus worked, and the story was a little thin, but at least I finished it, and could spot the references. A book that uses the Hamlet motif that I like much better is Iris Murdoch's Nuns and Soldiers.
I have Margaret Atwood's Hagseed lined up for when I'm on holiday in a few weeks time.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
|
Posted
I started reading Shylock is My Name, but I keep forgetting to pack it when I disappear off to do things (like move my daughter, spend the weekend away). I remember my Kindle, but this is a real book and means I have to remember it.
I know Merchant quite well so am being amused in some ways, as far as I've got.
--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marama
Shipmate
# 330
|
Posted
I re-read 'The Merchant of Venice' (which I greatly enjoyed – took me back to fourth form!), then went back to 'My Name is Shylock'. I found it remarkably difficult to get into it (and I didn’t read it all, missing out a chunk of the middle). Having two ‘Shylock’ figures was confusing, and the endless discussions between them of the nature of Jewishness I found unengaging and rather boring. The Christian characters are quite remarkably stupid as well as antisemitic, and their shallowness off-putting. None of the glorious language of the original - and I for one found the belittling of the Portia character (she even loses her main speech) a bit much to take.
Jacobson is of course at liberty to invert the story any way he chooses. Shakespeare’s original has problems, of course, and the nature of the antisemitism of TMOV has been endlessly debated. I find it interesting that Shakespeare was writing for an audience which had no direct experience of Jewish people or Jewish life (Jews were banished from England from the C13 to Cromwell’s time); how then could his representation of Shylock be anything other than stereotype – and particularly ill-informed at that? And it was not an antisemitism that was – or could be - played out in real life – not that that necessarily makes it any better.
Overall I enjoyed my re-reading of the original much more than Jacobson’s ‘retelling’. But I may try Margaret Atwood’s take on 'The Tempest'.
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
No one has yet mentioned Jeanette Winterson's 'The Gap of Time', which recalls 'The Winter's Tale'. I was close to buying a copy but the reviews made it seem a bit too sordid for my liking. Can anyone recommend it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
gustava
Apprentice
# 15593
|
Posted
I've just finished "Hag-Seed" by Margaret Atwood and really enjoyed it - in the book prisoners are putting on "The Tempest" so there's a lot of quotations from the play
Posts: 18 | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
I'm half way through 'Hag-Seed' and so far it's by far and away the best of the Hogarth's Shakespeare's that I've read. I don't know the original, but that doesn't seem to matter the way it did with the Jacobsen. I might try the Winterson one next.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marama
Shipmate
# 330
|
Posted
Good to hear that about Hagseed I'll try to get hold of it
Posts: 910 | From: Canberra | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
|
Posted
'Hag-Seed' was the only one I'd read again. It would make a good book of the month if anyone coudl face anymore Shakespeare adaptations.
--------------------
'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
