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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ephesians 5:26 - what does the washing with water through the word mean?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A very evangelical/charismatic friend takes Ephesians 5:26 as a proof-text for family Bible study - ie as Christ sanctifies the Church so husbands are to help their wives achieve sanctity through family Bible study and prayer ...
Yes, I know, he's also very sexist ... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
That aside, what does this verse mean?
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-26.htm
I've suggested to him that the general understanding of this verse throughout the Christian era would be as a reference to baptism, and that it has more to do with the mystical union between Christ and his Bridge the Church rather than family Bible studies and prayer times.
Not that I'm knocking those. If people can make that work then that's good for them.
Besides, it's not as if the original recipients of the Epistle to the Ephesians would have had a nice family Bible at home with a set of concordances and study notes ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Anyhow, how do Shipmates interpret this verse? What is the 'washing of water through - or by - the word'?
What is 'the word' in this context?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.…
This is a classic case of Paul meandering off the point, only to catch himself a few lines later with "32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church…"
He can't help it; he's the kind of writer whose every phrase sparks new and vivid ideas in his brain, and he hurries to write them down before they evaporate, meanwhile leaving his original point far behind. You can see it all over his writing--which is one reason I can't imagine him as the writer of Hebrews. That person wrote in straight lines. Paul writes in curliques.
But anyway, the part that pertains to ordinary human spouses is "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her." Everything in the rest of your quote is Paul getting distracted by the need to describe just precisely what Christ did, which has very little resemblance to anything ordinary spouses do for one another under normal circumstances.
But the first bit is very important. It says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her--which requires a degree of self-sacrifice most spouses never get within shouting range of. And indeed, this is a standard point in all the LCMS sermons I have heard on the passage, which is that husbands need to get their acts together and love their wives properly. (Yes, they do go on to dig into the Gospel--leaving a man to contemplate his inability to measure up to Christ would be just.wrong.)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Oh, and "the washing of water with the word" is a reference to baptism and the forgiveness of sins that comes with it. But this is not a description of human marriages, but of what Christ was doing with the Church.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'd think it would be rather anachronistic to take "the word" there to mean "the Bible."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Certainly v25 sets an extremely high standard for husbands. To the extent that v26 expands on how Christ loved the church it can be said to expand on how husbands are to love their wives - an expansion that is not straightforward IMO, and if I was to attempt that I would probably end up somewhere other than the 'headship' position. And, although family Bible studies are a good thing IMO I wouldn't use this passage to support them as 'Biblical' (as though everything needs to have a verse or two of Scripture supporting it). But, the primary reading is about the Church.
"The word" here is almost certainly not the Bible as we know it (by virtue of the fact that it didn't exist at that point, they only had the Old Testament and stories of Jesus passed on by word of mouth). Elsewhere Paul says quote:
"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim
Romans 10:8
That is, the 'word' is the proclaimed gospel message of salvation in Christ. The Church is washed in the water of word because we have heard and responded to the proclamation of the gospel, and if we had not heard the gospel proclaimed then we would not have been able to respond in repentance and be sanctified.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The LCMS definition of "word" in that passage is pretty much the Gospel, yes, but from the particular viewpoint of God's promises as conveyed and fulfilled through baptism. It does not there mean the Bible. There is a whole range of meanings, and here we'd probably come close to translating it "promise."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
"The word" can be understood as simply the truth. The "Word of God" or Jesus' "My words" or "this Gospel" are ways that this is expressed.
Water, and especially washing with water, are pretty consistent biblical symbols for the healing and cleansing power of God's truth. People who hear and do what God teaches are cleansed.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I would think "the word" means the words spoken during the immersion in water at a baptism.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
What is striking/odd about that quote (and possibly unique in the NT) is talking as if baptism makes holy the church rather than the individual members.
(I don't often attend Bible studies but when I have I don't remember seeing any straight men there.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmmm ...
The ratio of gay to straight might vary according to tradition ...
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Anyhow, whatever the case with that, don't you think that interpreting the term 'word' here as the baptismal formulary ie the form of words used for the ceremony/rite, is just as literal (or fundamentalist) in its own way as interpreting it as my friend does, as a reference to the scriptures?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've suggested to him that the general understanding of this verse throughout the Christian era would be as a reference to baptism, and that it has more to do with the mystical union between Christ and his Bridge the Church rather than family Bible studies and prayer times.
The words of the hymn do come to mind:
The Church's one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is his new creation by water and the word,
From Heaven he came and sought her to be his holy bride. . . .
I would agree this a baptismal reference and that "the word" is the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and new life in Christ. I think, though, that a somewhat Johannine take could be that "the word" means more broadly the creative (and re-creative) action of God. Riffing back on the creation story, God said "let there be a church," and it was so.
How does your friend fit water into his family Bible study interpretation?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Hmmmm ...
The ratio of gay to straight might vary according to tradition ...
Anyhow, whatever the case with that, don't you think that interpreting the term 'word' here as the baptismal formulary ie the form of words used for the ceremony/rite, is just as literal (or fundamentalist) in its own way as interpreting it as my friend does, as a reference to the scriptures?
Ah, but I don't think of Biblical texts working on only one level !
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
But is the friend literal?
For those in the warmer climes of church-personship, it might be worth thinking "How would Biblical interpretation look like if it was seen as sacramental?"
The friend would not use that language, but the actual belief system may not be that different. The protestations of literalism and "plain meaning" map onto in many ways the ideas of the sacredness of the elements of the sacrament. It is a way of trying to preserve the sanctity of them. It is not the literal text that is "washing in Word" but the act of devotionally studying it within the family. Intriguingly if it is "washing" is normally women's work.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
The Greek for 'word' used here is rhema, which Paul only occasionally uses outside Romans 10, and which context is probably the best guide for understanding it. It carries the sense of the divine initiative which, in the form of the spoken word, brings new life and new possibilities. It carries echoes of Isaiah 55 (the word coming from heaven making the land fertile). Thus baptism carries the same sort of connotations.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He can't help it; he's the kind of writer whose every phrase sparks new and vivid ideas in his brain, and he hurries to write them down before they evaporate, meanwhile leaving his original point far behind. You can see it all over his writing...
I'm not sure I agree with this. Paul's letters tend to be very carefully crafted, and tend to flow in a well thought out sequence. Unfortunately, because his writing style is frequently unclear, dense and highly contextual, it can appear he wanders off track, although that's not generally the case. The hallmark of the very best Pauline exegetes is that they can work out what the flow of the passage is without leaving textual cul-de-sacs.
In the case of this part of Ephesians, he's building a remarkable theology of marriage on the model of the Messiah and his death. These guidelines are for a community living out an eschatology inaugurated but not yet consummated.
(Of course, any use of Ephesians to asses Paul's style needs to start by assuming he wrote it...!)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The overall structure of them tends to be good. It's the sentence and paragraph level stuff that is so much like a river--flowing constantly around and over rocks, and occasionally into an eddy. But then, the man was writing a letter--and usually to personally known recipients. It's maybe not fair to hold him to essay class standards.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I get the impression of someone who has a good think about the situation he wants to address, and works out what he wants to say. But, once he starts talking he gets a bit carried away. I think he's basically standing there with just his scribe, maybe a few friends, and delivering a sermon to the church he's addressing. A sermon without notes. It's not a stream of consciousness, it has the structure of what he wants to say, but is not carefully crafted down to the last word. You get all sorts of interesting bits in his epistles. Moments where he follows a line of argument and goes "I must be mad to even think like this", or where he grabs the pen from the scribe to write something himself.
Basically, his words don't read like something he ever expected to be dissected down to "why did he use that word rather than another?". I don't think he was ever concerned about that sort of detail, he's a big picture guy. And, "the word" in this text is also a big-picture message.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just looked up Matthew Henry' Bible commentary and he interprets the relevant verse as "The instrumental means whereby this (sanctification and forgiveness of sins) is affected are the instituted sacraments, particularly the washing of baptism and the preaching and reception of the gospel".
If Paul did write Ephesians (which I doubt but let's not argue it) he wrote in a very different style from his usual one.
leo might well be right about Corinthians 1, but Ephesians is a highly crafted literary work including the longest sentence in the NT, I heard in a sermon earlier this year.
[ 29. April 2016, 05:47: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
But is the friend literal?
For those in the warmer climes of church-personship, it might be worth thinking "How would Biblical interpretation look like if it was seen as sacramental?"
The friend would not use that language, but the actual belief system may not be that different. The protestations of literalism and "plain meaning" map onto in many ways the ideas of the sacredness of the elements of the sacrament. It is a way of trying to preserve the sanctity of them. It is not the literal text that is "washing in Word" but the act of devotionally studying it within the family. Intriguingly if it is "washing" is normally women's work.
Jengie
Good questions, but you don't know my friend.
Yes, he is VERY literal ...
In fairness, I agree with your comment about the actual belief system not being that different in essence.
And fair do's to other comments here too - all very helpful.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
J D G Dunn in The Oxford Bible Commentary says of the passage that it “has in view the purificatory bath which the bride took prior to and in preparation for the wedding ceremony… Perhaps there is a side glance at baptism, but the primary thought is of the (corporate) Christian life as equivalent to the time between betrothal and the wedding ceremony, the marriage itself only taking place at the return of Christ. The cleansing is evidently a spiritual cleansing and it comes “by the word”.
Personally I don’t think the writer would have mentioned washing if it wasn’t for baptism, but I’m not an NT academic.
[ 29. April 2016, 13:55: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sarah G
Shipmate
# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
Paul's letters tend to be very carefully crafted, and tend to flow in a well thought out sequence.
You miust be joking - they were dictated in a stream of consciousness fashion.
Not in the slightest.
I used to subscribe to the 'Paul dashing off at tangents' thing before finding the New Perspective on Paul. Once you tune in to what's going on, you see how it all flows in a planned, sensible way. AC/LC's point is spot on right- these are pastoral letters which get analysed as though they weren't, but he's certainly not all over the place.
Authorship issues parked, Ephesians 5 is a good example. The general theme (Ch.4-6) is- Now we have been given new life, what are the implications for our relationships with others? Alternatively, how should God's restored people behave in the renewed kingdom?
Hence the references to water and the word, being the symbol and description respectively of this new life (to stress again, word/rhema is renewal from God).
Hence the amazing metaphor of husband loving wife as Christ loved the church. This is both the motivation and the description. Brilliant stuff.
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
Just as a further note on rhema, the BDAG lexicon notes, "Gener. the sing. brings together all the divine teachings as a unified whole, w. some such mng. as gospel, or confession." It gives Eph. 5:26 as an example.
"With the washing" and "by the word" are both instrumental datives here. I would interpret it as actually primarily using washing as a metaphor, with a secondary dose of allusion to baptism, rather than a statement about baptism primarily. I'd translate v. 26, something like "in order that he might sanctify it, by cleansing by the washing in water that is the word."
The really brilliant part is the carefully-constructed envelope structure: Christ 1) gave himself up, in order that he might 2) sanctify the church by 3) cleansing it by the washing of water in 4) the word, so that it might not have any 3) spot or wrinkle but be 2) holy (same word as sanctified) and blameless -- 1) THUS ought men to love their wives. This is relevant to the careful vs. meandering dialectic.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Max Turner (PhD, Director of Research, and Lecturer in NT, London Bible College, formerly Lecturer in New Testament, King's College Aberdeen) writes:
"The charge to husbands to love their wives is also well reflected in the better conventions of the day, but Paul gives it radical new content through the Christ-church analogy. Christ gave himself for the church in love, and lovingly perfects the church (washing her clean with the word) for the day he will be more fully united with her. (The reference in v26 is not to baptism.)"
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G.K. Chesterton
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