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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ambiguous proper names in OT
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
Hello - my first post here. I am studying the use of proper names in the Old Testament, and particularly looking for examples of ambiguous names, i.e. the same name but a different person. I thought I would find more, but could come up with only:
Enoch: Son of Cain , Enoch: Father of Methuselah
Lamech: Son of Methuselah; father of Noah. Lamech: Husband of Adah and Zillah; father of Jabal, Jubal, and Tubal-Cain.
Phinehas: Son of Eleazer, Phinehas: Son of Eli.
Any advance on these three, er, six?
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
Also Ezra 8:33 ‘Eleazar son of Phinehas was with him’. Not 'son of Eleazar'. Also Ezra is post exile, so must be a different Phinehas. Or does 'son of ' mean 'of the house of' or something like that?
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer, of whom there are three.
[ 03. May 2016, 19:49: Message edited by: peter damian ]
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Interesting question. I know you are looking for specific references in the OT of names that could be confused or ambiguous. But just to put some context into the Name Game in the OT, this little discussion from the Catholic Encyclopedia may be of interest. Selecting certain quotes:
quote:
All Hebrew names were supposed to bear a significance, as originally individual subjects were called by a name expressive of some characteristic, e.g., Edom, red; Esau, hairy; Jacob, supplanter. They were carefully and solemnly selected, especially personal names.
And further:
quote:
Of the simple names a few seem to have been suggested by particular circumstances attending the child's birth: e.g, Jacob (the supplanter), Joseph (possibly an hypocoristic name: "Whom God added" — Eliasaph was at one time a favourite name for the youngest son in a family). A large class of proper names for men and women is made up of adjectives denoting personal characteristics. Here are a few instances: Acan (afflicting), Achaz (possessor), Agar (wanderer), Amos (strong), Amri (eloquent), Aod (praising), Asaph (gatherer), Aser (happy), Asir (captive), Ather (bound), Azbai (dwarf), Balac (vain), Baruch (blessed), Cetura (sweet-smelling), Dalila (yearning), Doeg (anxious), Edom (red), Esthon (women-like), Gaddel, Geddel (tall), Gedeon (destroyer), Heled (fat), Job (ruthlessly treated), Laban (white), Manahem (consoler), Nabal (fool), Nachor (panting or snoring), Nahum (comforter), Noemi (pretty), Omri (tiro, awkward), Ornan (nimble), Ozni (long-eared), Phesse (lame), Ruth (friend), Sepho (bald-headed), etc.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
One way to find out which names are duplicated is to look up a name in Strong's Concordance, and see if it refers to more than one person.
Also, I looked at the genealogy in Matthew 1. I noticed that one of the names there is Manasseh, who lived generations after David. One of Joseph's sons (Genesis 41:51) was named Manasseh. If you check this link to Bible Gateway, it is obvious that there was more than one person named Manasseh.
Moo
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Beware, there are zillions of duplicated names (just as there are today). I believe "Azariah" alone will keep you busy for weeks.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And there is a strong tradition, both with Jews and others, to use family names. People are named after their fathers or grandfathers or uncles. This is horribly confusing over several generations, and after the guy is dead and buried his nickname 'Shorty' or 'Big Nose' has less impact.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Peter Damian, welcome to Ship of Fools and to the Kerygmania board. You've come to the right place to ask questions related to the biblical text.
I just wanted to let you know that some blogging Shipmates place a link to their blogs in their signature file which appears at the end of each post. You can access that and edit it on your Profile. And while I'm at it, there's a Welcome Aboard Thread on the All Saints board, if you feel so inclined.
Mamacita, Keryg Host
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
All Hebrew names were supposed to bear a significance, as originally individual subjects were called by a name expressive of some characteristic...
quote:
adjectives denoting personal characteristics. Agar (wanderer), Amri (eloquent), Asir (captive), Balac (vain), Geddel (tall), Gedeon (destroyer), Heled (fat), Job (ruthlessly treated), Nabal (fool), Ornan (nimble), Ruth (friend), Sepho (bald-headed), etc.
If the idea is a name describes a person's characteristic, that suggests the names we see are not what the parents called the baby, but a later acquired name. Was there a cultural habit of re-naming, maybe at about puberty? You wouldn't know that your little baby will become a wanderer, or vain, foolish, friendly, or bald-headed.
(A friend hates her name because it means sorrow and she doesn't think that's her character.)
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Let's not forget the two Tamars -- Tamar, daughter-in-law of Judah, who posed as a prostitute, and Tamar, daughter of David, raped by her half-brother. Both women associated with the sorts of stories we don't frequently tell in Sunday School.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Was there a cultural habit of re-naming, maybe at about puberty?
In the Old Testament, God renamed certain people. Abram became Abraham, and Jacob became Israel.
Moo
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
And, Jesus does the same - Simon became Peter.
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Peter Damian, welcome to Ship of Fools and to the Kerygmania board. You've come to the right place to ask questions related to the biblical text.
I just wanted to let you know that some blogging Shipmates place a link to their blogs in their signature file which appears at the end of each post. You can access that and edit it on your Profile. And while I'm at it, there's a Welcome Aboard Thread on the All Saints board, if you feel so inclined.
Mamacita, Keryg Host
Thank you - testing now.
[edit] yes it worked.
[ 05. May 2016, 17:26: Message edited by: peter damian ]
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Let's not forget the two Tamars -- Tamar, daughter-in-law of Judah, who posed as a prostitute, and Tamar, daughter of David, raped by her half-brother. Both women associated with the sorts of stories we don't frequently tell in Sunday School.
Thank you, just read that. The rape story is very sad and I don't see the point of it.
Also, confusingly, Absalom (her brother) has a daughter called Tamar.
[ 05. May 2016, 17:37: Message edited by: peter damian ]
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
If the idea is a name describes a person's characteristic, that suggests the names we see are not what the parents called the baby, but a later acquired name. Was there a cultural habit of re-naming, maybe at about puberty? You wouldn't know that your little baby will become a wanderer, or vain, foolish, friendly, or bald-headed.
I've always wondered who named Elijah. Surely his parents didn't name their baby "My god is Yahweh"? I don't know of any tradition of an annunciation of Elijah's birth, so how could they have known how he would spend his adult life?
Given that, did Elijah choose his own adult name, or was it a nick name given him by the prophets of Baal?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It sounds like the kind of name that a lot of faithful parents would give to their sons--who might have a slightly higher chance in turn of being chosen as prophets.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by peter damian:
Also, confusingly, Absalom (her brother) has a daughter called Tamar.
Why is it confusing? It's very common in all cultures for people in the same family to have the same name. My son has the same name as a cousin of my wife, my daughter the same name as one of my cousins. We have surnames which help differentiate between people with the same firstname. If there are three people called John in the office, we cope well enough if on Monday morning someone comes up to say "did you hear? John broke his leg at the weekend?" with either knowing which John was being talked about (ie: maybe you'd already seen the other two walking around) or asking "which John?". What's so difficult about reading Scripture and asking "which Tamar?" if it isn't obvious?
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by peter damian:
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Let's not forget the two Tamars -- Tamar, daughter-in-law of Judah, who posed as a prostitute, and Tamar, daughter of David, raped by her half-brother. Both women associated with the sorts of stories we don't frequently tell in Sunday School.
Thank you, just read that. The rape story is very sad and I don't see the point of it.
I think the point of the rape story is to set up the rivalry and eventual civil war between the princes.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
That's certainly how it functions. But it also highlights David's total ineffectiveness as a father, and pretty much begins the fulfillment of "the sword will never leave your house" the Lord warned him of through Nathan after his sin with Bathsheba.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I am reminded of the slave Jim's comment, in Huckleberry Finn -- Likely there was rackety times in the nussery.
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Remember also that some names have different forms.
Jesus, for example, is the same name as Joshua.
John
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Name confusion is the clearest indication that the OT is a crowd-sourced document. An editor in charge would have ensured that all names were distinctive -- it's basic, vanilla stuff. The use of Jesus for Christ, allocating all other forms of the name to Joshua, Josias, and so forth, is exactly what should have been done, purely to eliminate confusion. If you don't want to use name variants, go to tags: Mary wife of Clophas, Mary mother of Jesus, Mary from Magdala. And when necessary ties them together: Mary from Magdala sister of Martha and Lazarus.
Dorothy Sayers complained bitterly of this, when she was writing The Man Born to Be King, so I am not alone in this opinion.
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Speaking of the Marys (because, AIUI, Mary is a form--Greek I guess--of Miriam/Miryam), for OT purposes there is Miriam, Aaron's sister (see, e.g., Exodus 15:20) and Miriam, the son (as I read the passage, although it is not a model of clarity) of Mered and Bithiah (see 1 Chronicles 4:17). So, if you want to talk about ambiguous names, Miriam seems to be both a female and a male name. "Miriam" means "rebellion"--so no real reason that it needed to be limited to one gender.
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Name confusion is the clearest indication that the OT is a crowd-sourced document. An editor in charge would have ensured that all names were distinctive -- it's basic, vanilla stuff. The use of Jesus for Christ, allocating all other forms of the name to Joshua, Josias, and so forth, is exactly what should have been done, purely to eliminate confusion. If you don't want to use name variants, go to tags: Mary wife of Clophas, Mary mother of Jesus, Mary from Magdala. And when necessary ties them together: Mary from Magdala sister of Martha and Lazarus.
Dorothy Sayers complained bitterly of this, when she was writing The Man Born to Be King, so I am not alone in this opinion.
That’s a very interesting point and central to the book I am planning. My background is philosophy of language rather than theology (although I do have a diploma of theology as it happens). Saul Kripke is the place to start for anyone who is interested http://www.class.uh.edu/phil/garson/NamingandNecessity.pdf.
That said, there is some evidence of disambiguation. Take the strange story in Numbers 25:8 ‘Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped’. Then Psalm 106 ‘But Phinehas had the courage to intervene, and the plague was stopped’. The name ‘Phinehas’ is not sufficient. But once you add the description ‘stopped the plague’, you have secured effective reference.
There are other rules we can add. For example, if you are using the same name in the same chapter, then the co-operative principle requires you are talking about the same person. Conversely, if you use the same name in a different chapter and especially a different book, than there is no reason to disambiguate, unless, as with the case of Phinehas above, it is important to signify co-reference. Also, if you are talking about a totally different time, then assume the reference is different. (Unless of course people can live for hundreds of years, which you can’t rule out in a biblical context).
PS thanks for the quote from Sayers, I may include that.
[ 06. May 2016, 17:23: Message edited by: peter damian ]
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm re-reading a Phillipa Gregory book, and this time around it struck me as exasperating that nearly all of the women were named Katherine, Anne, or Jane. I bet you had to be careful calling to your friends across the market square.
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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
It is also bad in the novels by Russians. In Tolstoy not only are the characters similarly named but they have nicknames which are similar, and then all those patronymics and matronymics. That's why there are all those character lists at the front.
The modern author is advised to adjust the names, so that at least all the major characters have names that are visibly different. None of this Tolstoyian Natalia and Nataly and Natasha stuff for us -- a different letter of the alphabet for all the stars, please.
Seek the Sayers quote in the front matter of the volume The Man Born to Be King which collects all twelve of the radio plays she wrote in the 1950s. She complains of the number characters who leap like salmon in and out of the pages of Scripture, unnamed and unknown. The dramatic unities demand that as many of these characters as possible be conflated, merged, or at minimum played by the same actor. You have to pay every actor who speaks, so the fewer the better from the budget point of view.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Remember also that some names have different forms.
Jesus, for example, is the same name as Joshua.
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Speaking of the Marys (because, AIUI, Mary is a form--Greek I guess--of Miriam/Miryam). . .
Likewise, (OT) Jacob is the same name as (NT English) James—the Hebrew Yaʻaqov and the Greek Iakobos.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I think I've ranted about this here before (on this board I mean; obviously not on this specific thread) but one of the very weakest arguments in the (IMHO) overall-very-weak book James the Brother of Jesus by Robert Eisenmann is his insistence that when two or more characters in the NT are given the same name, they must really be the same person -- i.e. Jesus could not possibly have had a brother AND a disciple names James; it must have been a clumsy attempt to obscure the identity of his brother by inventing a disciple named James. A cursory glance at almost any period in the past (as Kelly rightly points out about the Tudor period; the Romans were even worse with only five first names for men) would show how ridiculous this assumption is. You probably couldn't go for a walk in Galilee in the first century without tripping over James, Marys, Jesuses and Simons.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The Romans were just awful. You were expected to name your firstborn son after yourself, all three names. Anyone who had an interesting or original name was a third, fourth, or fifth son. All the girls were Julia (the girl of the Julian clan), Julillia (the littler girl of the Julian clan), etc. And everybody you ever hear of is referred to by their nickname ('Germanicus').
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I had this zygote of a short story idea in which some kid named Jesus in Nazareth hangs out with three or four other kids named Jesus. In Nazareth.
Then they all turn twelve and get lost in Jerusalem at the annual pilgrimage-- together. Guess where they all wind up.
Brenda, if you steal that, I get a kickback. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 07. May 2016, 00:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Ideas are easy, as available as sand on the seashore. Now, if you had had a plot, we might talk.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If you don't want to use name variants, go to tags: Mary wife of Clophas, Mary mother of Jesus, Mary from Magdala. And when necessary ties them together: Mary from Magdala sister of Martha and Lazarus.
Not to be picky, but I believe the sister of Martha and Lazarus was Mary of Bethany, not Magdala.
Even more Marys...
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The conflation has a long tradition (Sayers uses it too) but I can whip up rationales one right after another, like rabbits out of a hat. Magdala was where she was living after she left Bethany to run wild. All three sibs were from Magdala but after Mary became too notorious they moved and made a fresh start in Bethany. Half siblings, and Mary was living with the Magdala side of the family. They were living in Magdala but then Lazarus got a job in Bethany and naturally his sisters came with him to keep house. And so on.
Which supplies yet another reason why there are so many duplicate names. They really are the same James or whoever, but no one thought to mention that he had moved from Antioch to Nazareth or whatever. So half the time he's James from Antioch and the rest of the time he's James of Nazaret, and nobody now can put the halves together.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Why make life so complicated? Mary and James were, and still are, very common names. It's not surprising that several different people had the same name. Occam and his razor.
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Seek the Sayers quote in the front matter of the volume The Man Born to Be King which collects all twelve of the radio plays she wrote in the 1950s. She complains of the number characters who leap like salmon in and out of the pages of Scripture, unnamed and unknown. The dramatic unities demand that as many of these characters as possible be conflated, merged, or at minimum played by the same actor. You have to pay every actor who speaks, so the fewer the better from the budget point of view.
I like the salmon bit. Is that your word or Sayers?
quote:
Mark 14:51 And there followed him a certain young man (νεανίσκος), having a linen cloth (σινδόνα) cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him. 14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
And we never hear any more of the man. Some think it was Mark himself, otherwise we would not be able to explain how the author knew of all this.
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The priests guards and servants would also know. You can easily imagine them sitting around a fire on watch one night telling stories.
"Remember that night we went to arrest Jesus of Nazareth? He'd surrendered without a fight, so we thought we might round up some of his gang. You remember that guy with the linen cloth? I reached out to grab him, but all I got was a good hold on the linen which came unwound. All I got was a good length of linen cloth. There was just enough torch light to see his naked butt disappearing into the trees as he ran away. We didn't stop laughing for hours."
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The conflation has a long tradition (Sayers uses it too) but I can whip up rationales one right after another, like rabbits out of a hat. Magdala was where she was living after she left Bethany to run wild. All three sibs were from Magdala but after Mary became too notorious they moved and made a fresh start in Bethany. Half siblings, and Mary was living with the Magdala side of the family. They were living in Magdala but then Lazarus got a job in Bethany and naturally his sisters came with him to keep house. And so on.
There is nothing in the gospels to support the idea that either Mary of Bethany or Mary Magdalene had led an irregular life.
There is no information whatever about Mary of Bethany's past life. Of Mary Magdalene Luke says that Jesus had driven seven demons out of her.
BTW I am not criticizing Dorothy Sayers. I think she was justified in conflating the two characters in the interests of constructing interesting plays. The overall intent of the work was more important than accuracy of detail.
Moo
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The priests guards and servants would also know. You can easily imagine them sitting around a fire on watch one night telling stories.
"Remember that night we went to arrest Jesus of Nazareth? He'd surrendered without a fight, so we thought we might round up some of his gang. You remember that guy with the linen cloth? I reached out to grab him, but all I got was a good hold on the linen which came unwound. All I got was a good length of linen cloth. There was just enough torch light to see his naked butt disappearing into the trees as he ran away. We didn't stop laughing for hours."
And they told who?
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peter damian
Shipmate
# 18584
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Posted
Wikipedia: "Medieval Western Christianity identified Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene and with the sinful woman of Luke 7:36–50."
So, assuming they weren't the same, Mary Magdalen wasn't the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair? Another cherished belief in tatters.
But why would John add 'And Mary was she that anointed the Lord with ointment'? (Although this only identifies Mary of Bethany with the woman sinner, of course).
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http://trinities.org/blog
Posts: 73 | From: london | Registered: Apr 2016
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by peter damian:
quote:
Mark 14:51 And there followed him a certain young man (νεανίσκος), having a linen cloth (σινδόνα) cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him. 14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
And we never hear any more of the man. Some think it was Mark himself, otherwise we would not be able to explain how the author knew of all this.
I have seen speculation (including here on the Ship, I think) that the young man mentioned in Mark 19:5:
quote:
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.
is the same young man.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by peter damian:
Wikipedia: "Medieval Western Christianity identified Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene and with the sinful woman of Luke 7:36–50."
So, assuming they weren't the same, Mary Magdalen wasn't the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair? Another cherished belief in tatters.
But why would John add 'And Mary was she that anointed the Lord with ointment'? (Although this only identifies Mary of Bethany with the woman sinner, of course).
Stop the presses, I figured it out.
Mary of Magdala had nowhere to go post- exorcism, so Martha took her in, out of respect to her being part of Jesus's entourage. But that now made both Martha's sister and Mags "Mary of Bethany." One or the other of them got fed up with the situation and changed her name to Marcella ( identified in medieval literature as "Martha's handmaid." ) You may now begin the Golden Legend.
Either that, or as Wiki says, one careless Pope conflated the two, and nobody had the heart to correct him.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Sayers says that the conflation of Bary of Bethany with Mary Magdalen and the unnamed Woman who was a Sinner is sanctioned by both St. Augustine of Hippo and Pope Gregory. The identification of Mary of Cleophas with the second 'disciple' on the road to Emmaus she blames upon the Bishop of Ripon. She goes on to say, "The number of persons who flit, unheralded and unpursued, through the pages of the Gospel is enormous and every legitimate opportunity [in writing the radio plays] of tightening up the dramatic construction and avoiding the unnecessary multiplication of characters."
So, she uses the salmon analogy somewhere, I'm certain of it, but not here.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by peter damian:
Wikipedia: "Medieval Western Christianity identified Mary of Bethany with Mary Magdalene and with the sinful woman of Luke 7:36–50."
So, assuming they weren't the same, Mary Magdalen wasn't the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair? Another cherished belief in tatters.
But why would John add 'And Mary was she that anointed the Lord with ointment'? (Although this only identifies Mary of Bethany with the woman sinner, of course).
The anointing of feet / anointing of head / washing of feet is IMHO several different episodes, because the context in which the stories are told is just too different--and the intent of the action is differently focused, too. For that matter, the onlookers have very different objections in each episode.
And it's not surprising that you'd get several similar-but-different episodes in a society where washing/anointing was a customary thing to do for a guest, and there Jesus was, being a guest again and again in various places all through his ministry.
Then, of course, it's quite likely the second person to riff on this theme in her actions got the general idea from hearing the story of the first.
What bugs me about conflating all the anointers/washers is that it cuts down on the number of interesting, intelligent, adult women interacting with Jesus, and reduces them all to a single troubled individual who is easily pigeonholed and disregarded as a stereotypical prostitute. And what's with that, anyway? We have no idea what sin the repentant woman had committed; for all we know, it could have been widespread financial fraud.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This happens anyway. We never look for them, but somebody certainly prepared the last supper, washed the robes, packed a lunch when the apostles were taking Jesus out in the boat, and all these useful daily tasks. A thousand to one, those unknown and unmentioned workers were women.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
We never look for them, but somebody certainly prepared the last supper, washed the robes, packed a lunch when the apostles were taking Jesus out in the boat, and all these useful daily tasks. A thousand to one, those unknown and unmentioned workers were women.
No bet! Matthew admits it.
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
There's also Luke 8:1-3
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Elephenor
Shipmate
# 4026
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Posted
Not a purely OT example, but one of the more befuddling instances of ambiguous reference -
In Luke 11.50-51, Jesus speaks of quote:
the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.
The apparent reference is to the death of Zechariah son of the priest Jehoiada as recorded in 2 Chronicles 24: quote:
Then the spirit of God took possession of Zechariah son of the priest Johoiada; he stood above the people and said to them, 'Thus says God: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord, he has also forsaken you.' But they conspired against him, and by command of the king they stoned him to death in the court of the house of the Lord.
This last violent death described in the final book of the Hebrew OT canon makes an apt bookend to Abel, the first. (A to Z works nicely in the Roman alphabet, but not in Greek or Hebrew.)
But perhaps not, for in the parallel passage of Matthew 23.35 (which prima facie should have the same reference), Jesus speaks of quote:
all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
Here we have instead a more explicit though less apt reference to the eponymous prophet of the OT book of Zechariah: quote:
In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Zechariah son of Berechiah son of Iddo (Zech 1.1; cf. Zech 1.7)
Yet this prophet's martydom is otherwise unrecorded, and he lived while the Temple lay in ruins.
So in fact it seems likely Matthew is referencing some conflation of the son of Jehoiada and the son of Berechiah.
To further muddy the waters this same prophet is named in Ezra 5.1 and 6.14 as 'Zechariah son of Iddo'; likewise in Nehemiah 12.16, which lists him among the priests. (That this refers to a house or family of Iddo is consistent with the Neh 12.16 context; yet the NIV is the only English translation which has felt the need to silently correct the Ezra verses to 'descendent of Iddo'.)
There are at least thirty other Zechariahs in the scriptures...
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"Man is...a `eucharistic' animal." (Kallistos Ware)
Posts: 214 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This happens anyway. We never look for them, but somebody certainly prepared the last supper, washed the robes, packed a lunch when the apostles were taking Jesus out in the boat, and all these useful daily tasks. A thousand to one, those unknown and unmentioned workers were women.
...but in this case the Biblical authors did make an effort to highlight specific people, and it's the carelessness of the Flock that obscures things. Ther is no good reason these specific people should be conflated. Their identity was not kept fro us.
The Occam's Razor explanation in the case of the Marys seems to be that it has been historically easier to look at women in a narrative as performers of an archtype, rather than as unique individuals.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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