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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: John 20:19-23 compared with Pentecost (Acts 2)
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
How was the Disciples/Apostles' reception of the Holy Spirit in John 20:19-23 different from their receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2)? Has anyone suggested they might be the same event, just with disagreement on the part of the Gospel writers as to whether it happened before or after the Ascension? And if they are separate events, what is the significance of the first giving of the Spirit as opposed to the second? Was the first gift only a partial one in comparison to the second? And was the conferring of the authority to loose and bind sins in John 20 intended to be a repetition of the same conferral that happens elsewhere in the gospels before the death and resurrection of Christ, or does it reflect a disagreement among the Gospel authors as to when that conferral occurred?
[edited to include links to text]
[ 19. May 2016, 20:05: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How was the Disciples/Apostles' reception of the Holy Spirit in John 20:19-23 different from their receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2)? Has anyone suggested they might be the same event, just with disagreement on the part of the Gospel writers as to whether it happened before or after the Ascension? And if they are separate events, what is the significance of the first giving of the Spirit as opposed to the second? Was the first gift only a partial one in comparison to the second? And was the conferring of the authority to loose and bind sins in John 20 intended to be a repetition of the same conferral that happens elsewhere in the gospels before the death and resurrection of Christ, or does it reflect a disagreement among the Gospel authors as to when that conferral occurred?
I suspect there were multiple "roll outs" of these gifts, the Holy Spirit and the authority to forgive/retain sins. The earlier pre-Pentecost ones occurred with a limited number of people (not ALL the church) and generally had a purpose in mind, such as the blessed group immediately heading out on a mission. In the post-resurrection pre-Pentecost case, I think this was in view of the special role the apostles would play from that day forward in gathering and leading the early church.
Pentecost, on the other hand, is for everybody.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
As events stretch, they were the same event. But, on different occasions.
In John we have Jesus promising the Spirit, there's no indication that there was any gifting at that point, and in Acts 2 the fulfillment of the promise.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Bit of a tangent, prompted by the mention of the authority to forgive or retain sins. Especially with regard to Peter. Is there any indication of how that authority was exercised?
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Given the restrictions and freedoms of the genre of hagiography at the time, and to my mind the gospel accounts are particular instances of hagiography, I just see the two as different ways in which the gospel writers incorporated the same event into their narrative. In each case, it is self-consistent, i.e. consistent with the rest of their Christology, and that is the point. Luke's account has to be read in the context of the way he plays out the apostles' post-resurrection experience, separating it very consciously into a series of experiences and encounters. John puts the release of the spirit into the body of disciples before many of post-resurrection experiences, making the latter early fruits of that release as well as the resurrection. To my mind, they are positing slightly different relationships between the second and third persons of the trinity, and between those persons and the Church. I don't see it as helpful to judge their mutual co-reference, since I don't see mutual co-reference as an aim of their existence.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Hostly Friendly Reminder
Please remember to include links to the Bible passage(s) you want to discuss. Alternately, if you are discussing only a couple of verses, you can place them within the body of your post. To practice using the Insert URL or Quotations functions, go to the UBB Practice Thread.
Carry on....
Mamacita, Keryg Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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