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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Re-united with loved ones in Heaven?
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I went to a funeral at Our Place this morning.
During his homily, Father asserted quite firmly that the Bible reassures us that, after death, we will be re-united in Heaven with our family, friends, and loved ones i.e. (presumably) those we knew in life.
OK, but can anyone point me to a Bible verse or verses that supports this idea? I can't think of any offhand, but it may well be that I'm missing something here....
Thanks!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
In Matthew 22, someone poses a hypothetical case to Jesus of a woman who married each of seven brothers, in series, as each of the first six died. To whom will she be married in Heaven? The answer was: to no one.
Irrelevant sidebar comment: In Greek mythology, there was the idea that virtuous people who died would be in the Elysian Fields reliving the happiest moments of their lives, which presumably might involve loved ones.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
During his homily, Father asserted quite firmly that the Bible reassures us that, after death, we will be re-united in Heaven with our family, friends, and loved ones i.e. (presumably) those we knew in life.
OK, but can anyone point me to a Bible verse or verses that supports this idea? I can't think of any offhand, but it may well be that I'm missing something here....
I need a bit more specifics re what you are asking.
If you're simply asking if the Bible teaches that there is an afterlife-- a "communion of saints"-- then yes, indisputably. 1 Cor. 15 is the premiere passage but there are many others throughout both the OT and NT.
However, if you're asking which version of the afterlife is taught in the Bible, then it gets more complicated. Does the Bible teach that we will be immediately transfixed to some spiritual plane that is "heaven"? Jesus' words to the thief on the cross ("today you will be with me in paradise") seem to suggest so. Or does the Bible teach that when we die we are "asleep"-- in the grave-- until the physical resurrection of the dead in the "new heaven & earth"? (thoroughly expounded in 1 Cor. 15 as well as the Luke 20 passage mentioned upthread). Or is it both/and-- a "spiritual" resurrection to some other "heavenly" place in the interim until the ultimate "resurrection"?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
Depends a bit on what the father was saying exactly.
If he was saying that eternal life will involve 'community' - then I would say that was easily found in the Bible: for example the image of the 'city' in Revelation 21, and also Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians quote:
1Thess 4:13-18 (ESV)
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
However, if he is saying that heaven is all your family and friends - ie everyone will be in heaven (some form of universalism) - then that would be a little more contentious.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
Posts: 2544 | From: The Scriptorium | Registered: May 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
There does indeed seem to be an element of universalism in what Father said - he asserted that the Bible teaches that all those bereaved would be reunited with their deceased loved ones in Heaven. This particular priest is by no means a universalist, as he firmly believes in Hell (which will be full of g*ys, if he has his way)
I take the points made about 'community', and also about there being no 'marriage' in Heaven. I'm sure Father was simply trying to comfort the bereaved family, but without (perhaps) much in the way of scriptural support.
Of course, none of us can possibly know for certain what (if anything) happens after death. I rest content in the knowledge that Our Lord promises us that where he is, there shall we be also.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This particular priest is by no means a universalist, as he firmly believes in Hell (which will be full of g*ys, if he has his way)
A women-only heaven then, with Hell full of guys?
On a more serious note, I grew up with Seventh-day Adventist theology where we are believed to sleep in the grave until the Resurrection, after which all the righteous will end up, body and soul, in heaven. However, the end result of "heaven" was pictured much as it is in most Christian churches (except for not happening immediately after death): a peaceful realm of eternal happiness, populated by all the people we've ever loved and lost (at least the good and righteous ones), in the presence of God.
As a teenager, steeped in this view of heaven, I remember being quite shocked to read in something by CS Lewis (can't recall the reference now but given the context it's likely to be A Grief Observed) that all our images of heaven as a reunion with dead friends and loved ones come from sermons and hymns, not from Scripture. It was a nasty shock to read this and an even nastier one to reflect that he's probably right. I still cherish the hope of being reunited with those I love who have passed away, but I don't think there is a single Scripture verse -- not one I can think of, anyway -- that promises that we will recognize, know and be reunited with our dead loved ones in heaven.
Except, of course, for the above-noted example of the woman with seven husbands (not likely to be an entirely happy reunion all round, I would think). And even that is in a theoretical situation posed for the question of debate, not any sort of prophecy or promise. In fact Jesus' whole point in that example is to shoot down the image of the woman continuing all her earthly marriages in heaven, and to say, "No, heaven's not going to be like that at all." But He doesn't exactly spell out what it WILL be like, does He?
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I believe He did not explain, because his listeners could not possibly have understood. "When you die your soul goes here, onto this jump drive, see, and the Archangel Gabriel downloads it up onto the Heavenly storage discs. Then when the Father completes the upgrade to Heaven 'n' Earth 9.0 and all the add-ons are live, the angels upload you again to run on the new mainframe. You'll have roaming wi-fi, lots more mips, and no load time on your texts to all your loved ones."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
It's the Good News. If the news is some of the people you love will suffer eternal torment, how is that good news, how is that the assurance we don't have to grieve?
Theology seems easier if we view the world as us and them, wheat and tares, in or out and the two never fall in love. But if your child murdered someone, or if your awful ex is supporting his elderly Mom, is he in or out? Real life doesn't fit the duality view of people.
Our primary focus is supposed to be on living now and on confidence in who God is. So long as we have trouble with those, we really haven't much chance moving on to more complex or less familiar concepts like how can someone I think evil but who is loved by others co-exist with me forever?
We have a few hints, maybe lots of hints: no need to grieve death, love never ends, the Jewish tribe didn't seem obsessed with death as major permanent soul-tearing loss. And of course Jesus' resurrection and instruction to tell the world.
Maybe those should be plenty enough hints to give us confidence the Good News is exciting and worth shouting, not the bad news many hell preachers insist it is. (A neighbor is rationalizing how he'll enjoy heaven when his daughter is in hell; yuk!)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This particular priest is by no means a universalist, as he firmly believes in Hell (which will be full of g*ys, if he has his way)
A women-only heaven then, with Hell full of guys?
Or goys* . . . or is it goyim*? It could also be what are less politely called f*gs in the US or p**ves in the UK. Quee*s on both sides of the pond. But Miss Amanda digresses.
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* Hebrew for non-Jews.
[ 09. September 2016, 16:45: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe He did not explain, because his listeners could not possibly have understood. "When you die your soul goes here, onto this jump drive, see, and the Archangel Gabriel downloads it up onto the Heavenly storage discs. Then when the Father completes the upgrade to Heaven 'n' Earth 9.0 and all the add-ons are live, the angels upload you again to run on the new mainframe. You'll have roaming wi-fi, lots more mips, and no load time on your texts to all your loved ones."
Hmm, and all this time I thought it was a giant hydraulic flushing down through the sewer into the purgatory of water treatment, where the sludge is separated from the clean water. One to go into the heavenly ocean and the other to decay on hellish fields of manure.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I generally say that "we hope". Because, let's face it, we all do, however rigorous our theology.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
In Matthew 22, someone poses a hypothetical case to Jesus of a woman who married each of seven brothers, in series, as each of the first six died. To whom will she be married in Heaven? The answer was: to no one.
Though, it wasn't just "someone". The question was posed by Sadducees, who did not believe in any resurrection (the passage makes sure we know that). The Pharisees, who IIRC would have believed in a resurrection, had just been shown up by Jesus. And, the Sadducees were taking a chance to get one up on the Pharisees by posing a question that was designed to show the problems of resurrection (I recall reading somewhere that it was something that had been endlessly debated at the time, forming a part of the rivalry between the different religious sects in Judaism).
The answer Jesus gives is no answer at all. He refuses to get drawn into the "angels on a pin head" style of debate the Sadducees wanted him to. He refused to play their game.
However, he does affirm the resurrection.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
It could also be what are less politely called f*gs in the US or p**ves in the UK. Quee*s on both sides of the pond. But Miss Amanda digresses.
Well, we all know God Hates Figs.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
It's the Good News.
Not so broad as that; it's the Good News
of the Gospel - in other words, salvation and the reign of god. It's not just something cheerful to make us happy.
We will not be reunited with our loved ones- Mum will not be married to Dad in Heaven and while we will all be together, we will love one another perfectly and equally.
The Mormons believe in marriage in Heaven. It's not Biblical.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
The main picture of Heaven the Bible gives us is of a giant party. It isn't much of a stretch to imagine our loved ones there, since we're talking about something beyond our comprehension and outside of our experience.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
They'll be there but just not as spouses any longer.
And neither will they have wings and act like angels.
Don't get me started on that one!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
They'll be there but just not as spouses any longer.
And neither will they have wings and act like angels.
Don't get me started on that one!
OOH, I wanna hear your rant about wings! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
No, not in the same relationships we have here, not my spouse, my child, my grandma. Also not the "your grandma got involuntarily sent to hell because she didn't pray the right prayer" some neighboring churches preach.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Mormons believe in marriage in Heaven. It's not Biblical.
fyi: not all marriages. "Eternal marriage" is a higher version and only available to those married in the Temple (as opposed to the meeting house)-- and, even in the older polygamous version of LDS, you only got one "eternal" marriage. To me it looks like a way for Joseph to help Emma feel better about polygamy cuz only she was an "eternal" wife.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I assumed it was said as a comfort, when grieving families need to hear such assurances. You even hear people saying such things about pets. I don't really expect it to be affirmed in the bible.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Hmm. Yes, it was said as a comfort, but I still think it would have been better - and more honest - to simply quote Our Lord's words about 'many mansions' etc., and not to be more specific. The deceased lady (who was 83) was a life-long Christian, and a stalwart member of the church, so I'm pretty certain Jesus' words to his disciples would apply to her!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
There's no doubt that some sort of afterlife is affirmed in the Bible, so I don't think that's the problem. The question, if any, would be universalism. I think you can make a biblical argument for universalism, but it's certainly not as clear as simply the argument for some sort of afterlife (again, which sort of afterlife is unclear).
Equally unknown of course is whether or not the clergyperson in question was meaning to affirm universalism. Far more likely is the sort of assumptions that are commonly (if insensitively) made in large gatherings that "everyone here is the same as me" (my Canadian husband is often irked by ubiquitous "we're all Americans" talk). The clergyperson obviously believes his ultimate destination is assured and generalizes to encompass the listeners & their loved ones.
And then, yes, he is meaning to be comforting-- and to avoid an awkward conversation. While a bit mealy-mouthed it was certainly better than the alternatives.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nobody knows nuthin. How could they? Even Jesus was speaking from hope not experience.
As I found a week ago when faced with death, I believe in God, I can't not, but cannot believe in an afterlife; He's believable, an afterlife isn't. A whole meta-reality more real than material reality? It's absurd!
But if there is one, and of course if there's God, there is, we need to make up a better one than the Bible writers did to approximate to it qualitatively.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
I disagree that the problem is JUST universalism, though. That's certainly one problem: "Will I meet ALL my loved ones in heaven, or will some of them be eternally burning in hell/sleeping the sleep of the second death from which there is no awakening?" (Obviously, given my background, I find the second of those options more palatable and likely than the first, but either way, if you're a Christian and not a universalist, you have to accept that very likely some of the people you've known and loved in life will not be enjoying Paradise with you.
But the problem I have around this question (and what I was alluding to in the paraphrased CS Lewis quote I was trying to remember) concerns those of our loved ones who we consider to be "saved" like ourselves (or all of them if we're universalists; it makes not difference to this part of the question if it's some or all). If we all get to Heaven together someday, will we actually know, recognize, and relate to each other in a way that approximates how we've done on this earth? This is an absolutely staple of the teaching that portrays heaven as being just like life on earth but with all the bad bits taken out -- we will continue to know and love those we've loved in life, and see them again.
But what if Heaven is more nirvana-like, and we do go on after death but in some new form where our individual personalities and relationships no longer persist as we knew them here? There's not much in Scripture to suggest that the former picture of heaven is any more likely to be true than the latter.
Of course it's all guesswork, but why is it all guesswork? I would think that for most people who do believe in some kind of heavenly afterlife, the prospect of being united with loved ones who've died is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, attractions of that afterlife. Yet Scripture is completely silent on that subject -- not a single text we can pull out to support those comforting funeral narratives about seeing one another again someday.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Of course it's all guesswork, but why is it all guesswork? I would think that for most people who do believe in some kind of heavenly afterlife, the prospect of being united with loved ones who've died is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, attractions of that afterlife. Yet Scripture is completely silent on that subject -- not a single text we can pull out to support those comforting funeral narratives about seeing one another again someday.
I think it's for precisely the reason you've put your finger on--that it is such a powerful attraction to so many people that, if God dwelt on it at any length in the Scripture, it would completely obliterate the even more important things like "Love the Lord your God" and so forth. This is the reason, Lewis thought, why God was so slow to confirm any kind of afterlife in the OT. For some of us, knowing there's going to be fudge cake after dinner completely destroys our ability to enjoy the meat and potatoes. It's similar to the "ooh, shiny!" problem. Which is why I could never tell my son about proposed treats much in advance at all--with the best will in the world, he couldn't stop thinking about them once told.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped
This is the reason, Lewis thought, why God was so slow to confirm any kind of afterlife in the OT.
Somewhere in his writings Lewis said that he did not begin to believe in an afterlife until he had been a Christian for awhile. He thought this was a blessing, because the idea might have distracted him from what he was supposed to do in this life.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped
This is the reason, Lewis thought, why God was so slow to confirm any kind of afterlife in the OT.
Somewhere in his writings Lewis said that he did not begin to believe in an afterlife until he had been a Christian for awhile. He thought this was a blessing, because the idea might have distracted him from what he was supposed to do in this life.
Moo
In A Grief Observed he talks about how when a close friend died, he just knew his friend was with God, but when Joy died there was just... emptiness & loss.
I don't really have any theological point there, but just something about that fit for me. That the closeness of his grief for Joy, the enormity of the loss, overshadowed anything else.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The problem with the "reunited with loved ones in heaven" idea is that maybe I love some of them, but I really don't want much to do with them, let alone spend an eternity with them. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Actually, to my way of thinking, at this point in my life, after seeing and being with many friends and family members as they were dying and then after they were dead, is that I seem to have gotten better about death from experiencing so many others' deaths.
I've also become okay with the idea that my post-death personal awareness is probably not mine to be troubled about, any more than my body will be worth troubling about once I'm dead. What death is, is what death will be, and it's okay.
Without having the faintness bit of depression, fatalism or a real death wish, aren't there times for most people who have aged to the point of being an "older adult", that they envy the dead just a little bit? Ending of stress, ending of things which disorient because progress has gotten ahead of their ability or interest in keeping up, and it is clearer that the next generation is the centre of things as we are progressively sidelined? Consider Moses being shown the promised land and the hint and promise of generations unfolding into the eons of time after him. Is it enough? I think it should be, and the motivation to be to be kind to others, and to do right things for others, more often placing them before ourselves, should be what we have become formed to be because we chose to follow.
"And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." Deut 34-7. A Jewish colleague decades ago told me that "nor his natural force abated" meant he could still get it up and perform in bed, or at least that was the sense the original Hebrew implies. I have no idea if it is true, and I don't care, and I like it.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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