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Source: (consider it) Thread: Videos and images of worship, redux
Patrick
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Thank you, Subdeacon Michael, for the links to the Bethanie community. The Paschal Service is a smooth blending of Eastern and Western features: the post Baptismal procession around the font, for the former, the Exultet for the latter. Is the Divine Liturgy Gallican?
Patrick

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
Thank you, Subdeacon Michael, for the links to the Bethanie community. The Paschal Service is a smooth blending of Eastern and Western features: the post Baptismal procession around the font, for the former, the Exultet for the latter. Is the Divine Liturgy Gallican?
Patrick

That's right, Fr Deacon Patrick. They're a result of some of the groups departing due to the irregularities in l'ECOF over the years so they're essentially the inheritors of the byzantinised Gallican rite of the French church. Their music is a blend of Russian and western. The western plainsong is often harmonised and they're services are a blend of Gallican where the trradition could be reconstructed but supplemented with Byzantine in places. They're part of this communion now.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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The Scrumpmeister
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In case I didn't reply to you directly about the other thing, (I've had quite a few e-mails and have lost track), you're definitely on the list. [Smile]

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Forthview
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Do you mind if I ask - do Orthodox call deacons 'Father' (Father deacon Patrick) ?
I've noticed that some anglicans give the title 'Father' to their deacons ,whereas (Roman)Catholics do not.

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leo
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I think the only reason why some Anglicans call deacons 'Father' is because some anglo-catholics work hard to establish it as a clergy title and want to get people used to calling a young man 'Father' by the time he has become a priest.

However, this only makes sense in the case of transitional deacons, not permament deacons.

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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Do you mind if I ask - do Orthodox call deacons 'Father' (Father deacon Patrick) ?
I've noticed that some anglicans give the title 'Father' to their deacons ,whereas (Roman)Catholics do not.

Of course we don't mind. [Smile]

Yes, Orthodox deacons may be addressed as Father, as well as priests. It is really a personal mark of respect/affinity rather than an actual title, and it would be quite acceptable to refer to/address clergy as "Deacon David", "Priest Denys", "Archpriest Philip" without being thought disrespectful. I sometimes do that with clergy I don't know or am meeting for the first time but I'm really quite inconsistent. (I also do it with clergy I just can't bring myself to call "Father" - that way I remain respectful without being false).

I have a subdeacon friend in another diocese who is quite adamant that readers and subdeacons are also properly addressed as "Father" but I can only imagine it is either new Russian or a personal idiosyncrasy of his. Either way, I don't approve and suspect that my bishop wouldn't either.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think the only reason why some Anglicans call deacons 'Father' is because some anglo-catholics work hard to establish it as a clergy title and want to get people used to calling a young man 'Father' by the time he has become a priest.

However, this only makes sense in the case of transitional deacons, not permament deacons.

I have to say that it wouldn't occur to me to do so - 'Revd Deacon' would be fine for formal purposes...

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Patrick
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When I do not know or have forgotten a fellow deacon's name, addressing him as "Father Deacon" is perfectly acceptible and saves much in the way of introductory remarks (hope that does not sound too unfriendly)or embarrassment.
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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
(hope that does not sound too unfriendly)

Not at all. I've seen how hectic things can get in the altar at big events. There's often no time for pleasantries. Things need to be done, so when you see a priest/deacon/subdeacon, you just say hello and set him to work, and everyone gets on with his job. Then, after total strangers have served together for two and a half hours, there's usually an exchange beginning, 'Oh, by the way, my name's Michael', then they find the food and have a conversation.

[ 28. October 2010, 14:28: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I have a subdeacon friend in another diocese who is quite adamant that readers and subdeacons are also properly addressed as "Father"

I'll try that on the punters this coming Sunday.

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Oblatus
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Any comments on Fr. Heschle's Low Mass at Nashotah House?

Seems to be a mild 1979-Rite-I-ization of an American Missal Mass.

I gather this is done once a week on a weekday morning at his church in Chicago; otherwise it's Rite I there (I could be wrong).

[ 28. October 2010, 16:20: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I have a subdeacon friend in another diocese who is quite adamant that readers and subdeacons are also properly addressed as "Father"

I'll try that on the punters this coming Sunday.
'Sub-Father', perhaps? 'Revd Uncle in God'?

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
Seems to be a mild 1979-Rite-I-ization of an American Missal Mass
I'm not familiar with the American Missal. What do you mean by "mild-Rite-I-ization" thereof?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
Seems to be a mild 1979-Rite-I-ization of an American Missal Mass
I'm not familiar with the American Missal. What do you mean by "mild-Rite-I-ization" thereof?
The American Missal is an Anglo-Catholic expansion of the 1928 American BCP Holy Communion rite. Fr. Heschle in the video works in some elements from the BCP 1979 Rite I (such as the introductions and responses to the epistle and gospel) and leaves out some Missal items like the Last Gospel.
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ChippedChalice
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Oblatus,

thanks for posting that video.

What was the business the celebrant did with the paten (it looked like rolling it about on its edge) during the Our Father before the Fraction? I've never seen that before.

(And, of course, the obligatory follow up question -- I wonder why that's not part of our manual acts at Ascension?)

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
What was the business the celebrant did with the paten (it looked like rolling it about on its edge) during the Our Father before the Fraction? I've never seen that before.
It appeared that he rolled the paten over the host to break it, almost like one would use a pizza cutter. If you listen carefully, you can hear the host crackle a little bit as he does it. For reference, it is at about 6:08 in the third video segment.

I've never seen that either. Maybe they were using a host that was not scored for easy breaking, but even so, I wouldn't think it would be necessary.

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by ChippedChalice:
Oblatus,

thanks for posting that video.

What was the business the celebrant did with the paten (it looked like rolling it about on its edge) during the Our Father before the Fraction? I've never seen that before.

(And, of course, the obligatory follow up question -- I wonder why that's not part of our manual acts at Ascension?)

aredstatemystic gets the credit for posting the link first; I reposted it because I was hoping those who watched the video would comment and nobody was. [Waterworks] But I'm happier now. [Big Grin]

A previous assisting priest did the paten ceremonial that Fr. Heschle does in the video: paten slid out from under host and placed halfway under corporal, then the scoring of the host, sign of the Cross with the paten, sliding the paten back under the host; also the fermentum or small wedge of the host placed in the chalice and later fished out with the host as the celebrant receives the Sacred Body.

Can't say I know what it all means, but I think it's part of Tridentine ceremonial. It isn't done by other celebrants either because its meaning has gotten lost or (most likely) because the previous rector didn't incorporate it in the parish customary ca. 1979. The fraction in the 1979 may be one of the places where simplification was wanted: break the Host, keep silent for a moment, then the fraction anthem.

An older priest in a parish I belonged to in Michigan would pile all the hosts on the corporal and pull a corner of the corporal over them, I think during the words of institution, perhaps to ensure they were in the "blast radius." Then he'd scoop them back up with the paten. Mainly this was at a weekday Mass. His version of the traditional ceremonial.

[ 28. October 2010, 22:52: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
Can't say I know what it all means, but I think it's part of Tridentine ceremonial.
I won't suggest that it was not at one time, but I've seen many Tridentine masses, both English and Latin, both on video and in person, and I've never seen a celebrant do that bit. I wouldn't call myself an expert on Tridentine ceremony (we're high, but not that high), but I've just never seen it done, and it struck me as kind of odd.

Maybe it is one of those things that was changed in the 1962 revision of the Roman Rite, and fell out of practice then?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I won't suggest that it was not at one time, but I've seen many Tridentine masses, both English and Latin, both on video and in person, and I've never seen a celebrant do that bit. I wouldn't call myself an expert on Tridentine ceremony (we're high, but not that high), but I've just never seen it done, and it struck me as kind of odd.

Maybe it is one of those things that was changed in the 1962 revision of the Roman Rite, and fell out of practice then?

(We're referring to the scoring of the host by the celebrant, using the edge of the paten).

I finally found a small potential clue in an online article by the Rev. Tobias Haller, BSG. In connection with another liturgical custom, he refers to the paten-rolling:

This technical compliance with the rubric reminds one of the creasing of hosts with the edge of the paten which conscientious anglo-catholic clergy used to do in deference to the “lesser fraction” rubric, saving the complete breaking of the bread for the point at which they knew it to be proper!

The practice might be a remnant of that "technical compliance" with a rubric that's no longer there; or it may just be a good way to make the host easier to break cleanly without too many tiny particles flying off.

[ 29. October 2010, 01:40: Message edited by: Oblatus ]

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I finally found a small potential clue in an online article by the Rev. Tobias Haller, BSG. In connection with another liturgical custom, he refers to the paten-rolling:

This technical compliance with the rubric reminds one of the creasing of hosts with the edge of the paten which conscientious anglo-catholic clergy used to do in deference to the “lesser fraction” rubric, saving the complete breaking of the bread for the point at which they knew it to be proper!

The practice might be a remnant of that "technical compliance" with a rubric that's no longer there;

The rubric is still there in 1662. I assume that Haller is referring to the BCP rubric directing the priest to break the bread at the dominical words, which is of course nonsense. He seems to be suggesting that Anglo-Catholic clergy following the BCP rite or some variation thereon might score the host with paten at this point in order to be seen to be complying with the rubrics, saving the actual fraction for its proper place later on.

Whether this is the origin of using the paten or whether it was simply a custom borrowed from elsewhere and conveniently used by AC priests at this point, it isn't possible to say from that quotation, but it gives us at least a partial answer.

Presumably, the custom was witnessed by some and thought to be the way that the fraction is to be done, so that now some clergy do it at the actual fraction. Just a guess.

[ 29. October 2010, 08:47: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I assume that Haller is referring to the BCP rubric directing the priest to break the bread at the dominical words, which is of course nonsense.

For the sake of clarity, it is the rubric, and not Haller's observation, that is nonsensical.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I finally found a small potential clue in an online article by the Rev. Tobias Haller, BSG. In connection with another liturgical custom, he refers to the paten-rolling:

This technical compliance with the rubric reminds one of the creasing of hosts with the edge of the paten which conscientious anglo-catholic clergy used to do in deference to the “lesser fraction” rubric, saving the complete breaking of the bread for the point at which they knew it to be proper!

The practice might be a remnant of that "technical compliance" with a rubric that's no longer there;

The rubric is still there in 1662. I assume that Haller is referring to the BCP rubric directing the priest to break the bread at the dominical words, which is of course nonsense. He seems to be suggesting that Anglo-Catholic clergy following the BCP rite or some variation thereon might score the host with paten at this point in order to be seen to be complying with the rubrics, saving the actual fraction for its proper place later on.

Whether this is the origin of using the paten or whether it was simply a custom borrowed from elsewhere and conveniently used by AC priests at this point, it isn't possible to say from that quotation, but it gives us at least a partial answer.

Presumably, the custom was witnessed by some and thought to be the way that the fraction is to be done, so that now some clergy do it at the actual fraction. Just a guess.

I used to see the rolling of the paten over the priest's host every day - I cannot remember which church I belonged to at the time.

Writing about 'Common mistakes ' Fr. Shearburn, CR wrote, in 'At the Lord's Table': There is a way of marking the lines of fraction on the host with the edge of the paten at the Offertory. This is of doubtful value, as (i) it has no significance as a liturgical act; (ii) there is a certain danger of snapping the host; (iii) it is really unnecessary

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
I have a subdeacon friend in another diocese who is quite adamant that readers and subdeacons are also properly addressed as "Father"

I'll try that on the punters this coming Sunday.
'Sub-Father', perhaps? 'Revd Uncle in God'?
My younger friends say that I am avuncular.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Forthview
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The 'rolling of the paten' discussed here was certainly common in the Tridentine Mass before the Second Vatican council.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The 'rolling of the paten' discussed here was certainly common in the Tridentine Mass before the Second Vatican council.

I looked at the training videos for Low Mass and Sung Mass at Sancta Missa. The paten ceremonial Fr. Heschle uses in the Nashotah video is all there except for rolling the paten on the host.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The 'rolling of the paten' discussed here was certainly common in the Tridentine Mass before the Second Vatican council.

That is strange because it isn't in Fortescue.
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Pancho
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I suspect that there were a number of 'local customs' that weren't in Fortescue, back in the day. It's actually something I'm curious about.

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we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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eppendorf
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Here is a very well done Great Thanksgiving from a Lutheran church in Massachusetts:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ILCRichard#p/u/6/6e4dztJmZn8

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leo
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Pity he can't sing.

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The Scrumpmeister
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quote:
Originally posted by eppendorf:
Here is a very well done Great Thanksgiving from a Lutheran church in Massachusetts:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ILCRichard#p/u/6/6e4dztJmZn8

I'd question the assessment that it is well done. With the exceptions of the end of the preface and later the epiklesis, it just seemed incredibly rushed, which, considering it's probably among the shortest eucharistic prayers in existence, would be unnecessary even for those who are of the school of thought that services have to fit within a certain set time. I wondered where he had to be.

[ 08. November 2010, 15:29: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]

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Jon in the Nati
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quote:
probably among the shortest eucharistic prayers in existence
While that one was particularly brief, shortened eucharistic prayers are all the rage right now.

Also in vogue are eucharistic prayers with responses from the congregation. I get a little nauseous whenever I hear one like that.

[ 08. November 2010, 20:05: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

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+Chad

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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by eppendorf:
Here is a very well done Great Thanksgiving from a Lutheran church in Massachusetts:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ILCRichard#p/u/6/6e4dztJmZn8

I'd question the assessment that it is well done. With the exceptions of the end of the preface and later the epiklesis, it just seemed incredibly rushed, which, considering it's probably among the shortest eucharistic prayers in existence, would be unnecessary even for those who are of the school of thought that services have to fit within a certain set time. I wondered where he had to be.
Quite!

I was particularly taken with the invitation to Communion:
quote:
Come, for all is now ready. You may be seated.
Mind you, that was an impressive stack of pancakes he had there.

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Chad (The + is silent)

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:
probably among the shortest eucharistic prayers in existence
While that one was particularly brief, shortened eucharistic prayers are all the rage right now.
That's one of our longer eucharistic prayers. You should hear the short ones!

The clip was what one would encounter at most local ELCA places, exceptions being the speed, the chasuble (hit or miss), and making the sign of the cross over the elements. On the latter issue, that tends to be a LCMS thing around here. ELCA pastors tend to hold the element aloft for its respective Words, not replacing onto the corporal until after "Do this in remembrance of me."

I'm glad the issue of the presider's speech being answered by a sung congregational response seems to be disappearing.

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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That's one of our longer eucharistic prayers. You should hear the short ones!

[Ultra confused]

The prayer is almost as short as our epiklesis alone.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
That's one of our longer eucharistic prayers. You should hear the short ones!

[Ultra confused]

The prayer is almost as short as our epiklesis alone.

Yeah, well, let's talk when the Orthodox introduce interminable announcements, a special stand-alone "anthem" by the choir, a children's sermon AND a long adult sermon.

(And if you can sell my Lutheran brethren into the idea of longer eucharistic prayers, then more power to you. It is a festering issue in American Lutheranism. Frankly, I'll take what I can get right now. Trust me, it's a step up. Now, if only we could get the presider in the YouTube clip above to rotate his hands a slightly during epiclesis.)

[ 10. November 2010, 01:27: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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This one is not the usual fare for this thread, but having seen many discussions of this nature in Eccles, I thought some of you might enjoy:
Wedding Consultation with the Organist

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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Here's a random act of culture involving pipe organ. Definitely worth a listen.
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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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Oh, instant church! I loved how so many people in the crowd joined in -- it makes you wonder what percent of the population has learned the Hallelujah Chorus through some sort of program at school or church sometime in their lives. And everybody managed to get the silence before the final "hallelujah" at the end. Amazing.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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Not worship - at least not in the liturgical sense.

[Eek!] [Ultra confused] [Paranoid]

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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This isn't really a video, per se - just a series of stills - but it's a beautiful sung version of The Proclamation of Christmas (in Latin).

AND, as far as I've been able to tell, it's the "solemn tone" version - which I'd never heard before this year and didn't know existed, either.

Very pretty, both the song and the images, from 2009 it says.

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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(The video stills don't seem to be related to the chant, BTW - I believe the accompanying text says that this was chanted at Prime.

Not sure, either, where - someplace in Portugal, I think, or perhaps Brazil....?)

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
AND, as far as I've been able to tell, it's the "solemn tone" version - which I'd never heard before this year and didn't know existed, either.

Unfortunately, the decision made over forty years ago to eliminate the solemn option in the Anglophone world was renewed for the new missal as well. sigh. If I were RC, my intelligence would feel slightly insulted.

However, the solemn-vs-simple distinction still survives in the Latin mass world. For as long as I can recall, St. Peter's Basilica has used the solemn tone for the Proclamation of Christmas, which for decades replaced the Penitential Rite at the beginning of Midnight Mass but in more recent years has been placed within a vigil of readings before Midnight Mass begins.

Of course, the "new" Proclamation of Christmas came out not too long ago, and is used by St. Peter's. (An easy way to spot the difference is right at the beginning--the "old" way pegs the Birth of Christ at year 5199 since the creation of the world. The "new" uses "unknown ages.")

This Shipmate does like the "new" text better, but I do feel that the solemn chant suffered a little when they modified it to fit the new text.

If you'd like to compare the Latin simple tone to the Latin solemn tone for the old text, you can find them both at the link below...

The Simple Tone is on PDF p. 27-29 (text p. 1-3, after many preceding pages).
The Solemn Tone is on PDF p. 29-32 (text p. 3-6)

Link (with a major PDF warning--over 9MB). It's a whole book.

If you'd like to see the "new" text of the Proclamation of Christmas, you can find it here (also pdf warning). This is the service book for Midnight Mass at St. Peter's.

If you'd like to see the English translation of the "new" text, with the USCCB's simple chant tone, see here (also pdf warning).

St. Peter's also maintains the simple-vs-solemn chant distinction during the Holy Triduum, when simple chant is employed as traditionally appointed. If you'd like a quick listen to it, watch the Proclamation of Easter at the beginning of the Great Vigil from St. Peter's next year. You'll hear the deacon chant Dominus Vobiscum... in the simple tone.

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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Simple vs. Solemn chant aficionados might also be interested in ICEL's decision-making process summary. It seems the solemn tone for the preface dialogue in English--which incidentally has been used for decades, if not centuries, by Anglicans and Lutherans--"might be difficult for congregations."

Well, we always knew Lutherans and Anglicans were better singers. Now I think we have an admission from ICEL.

[ 28. December 2010, 21:28: Message edited by: Martin L ]

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Via Media
Shipmate
# 16087

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Here is a beautiful video of the Metropolitan Steven Anderson celebrating the IFB Divine Liturgy in Phoenix, Arizona. Simply enchanting.

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In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. Most of the time, eh?

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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541

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Some things never change. Back in the 1970's, the Anglican representative on a long-running ecumenical radio program remarked to me that his Roman Catholic colleagues, as they began to celebrate the Mass in English, wouldn't dream of learning from Anglicans' and Lutherans' centuries of experience with corporate worship in the vernacular.

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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house

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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Some things never change. Back in the 1970's, the Anglican representative on a long-running ecumenical radio program remarked to me that his Roman Catholic colleagues, as they began to celebrate the Mass in English, wouldn't dream of learning from Anglicans' and Lutherans' centuries of experience with corporate worship in the vernacular.

...and now they're whining for their collects to have more faithful translations--many of which were already done by the Episcopalians and being field tested in the late 60s and 70s. [Roll Eyes] I guess I shouldn't gloat. The halting translations they had to put up with were punishment enough.
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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

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quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Here is a beautiful video of the Metropolitan Steven Anderson celebrating the IFB Divine Liturgy in Phoenix, Arizona. Simply enchanting.

Via Media, the link you provided gives us a YouTube item titled "Baptist Preacher Heckled for Preaching Against Obama,' which doesn't exactly match the description in your post.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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Thanks, Martin L. Here's the Proclamation chanted in English, using the simple tone, and using the traditional text (I think, all the way through).
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673

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quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Here is a beautiful video of the Metropolitan Steven Anderson celebrating the IFB Divine Liturgy in Phoenix, Arizona. Simply enchanting.

Via Media, the link you provided gives us a YouTube item titled "Baptist Preacher Heckled for Preaching Against Obama,' which doesn't exactly match the description in your post.
I think that's the point. It's a joke. Steven Anderson is on the Fruit Tube page with his moving sermon, "Him That Pisseth Against a Wall."

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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)

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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867

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Here are picture of various masses and liturgies from my parish, including some of solemn high midnight mass from last week.

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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/

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