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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... and no, I don't mean the dreaded liturgical dancing.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But it seems to me that there ought to be a way of praying with the whole body, or most of it. But I can't work out how. I mean, I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've rather envied people who speak sign language, as that seems to get closer to what I'm vaguely reaching for. Any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

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Originally posted by IngoB:
I fail to see what your issue is with the Full Prostration

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I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I wrote

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I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort.

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You can se I left prostration out because I was interested in something else. And why? Because I already use prostration. Got it?

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Originally posted by no prophet:
From this, my question is whether the movement must be prayer in itself or if prayer may accompanying generic or everyday movement might also be considered as kinesthetic prayer? Thus, does saying prayer silently while bicycle commuting qualify? Because this is my daily practice.

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My opinion is yes to both. The movement can be prayer if the intention is to open the whole self to God. And prayer can accompany everyday movement, be it washing the dishes, cycling, in the gym, walking, swimming, whatever.

I think the key to the question 'Is this prayer?' is if the intention is to pray, either actively in the form of offering the activity to God, or intercession, or passively in the form of holding oneself open to God while in the activity.

I think these are the ways we get closest to Paul's idea of praying without ceasing. However, I wouldn't be too happy if my surgeon or dentist was concentrating on praying and not my medical needs. But would be happy if they offered their work to God at the beginning. Privately of course

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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you insist on turning this request of mine into a boxing match, I'll just ignore you. And your video link is not available in this country.

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Originally posted by itsarumdo:
Now (having alreadfy logged your core state) gently spring your flat palms together as if you are praying "a la traditional" - how does your core state feel now?

ditto for one hand clasping another (wringing hands preayer position)

ditto for interlaced fingers prayer position

Which do you prefer? Why?

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... and no, I don't mean the dreaded liturgical dancing. When I imagine trying to do that the words "very like a whale" come to mind...

But it seems to me that there ought to be a way of praying with the whole body, or most of it. But I can't work out how. I mean, I know the standard stand/kneel/lie prostrate things, but I'm thinking movement of some sort. I've rather envied people who speak sign language, as that seems to get closer to what I'm vaguely reaching for.

Any thoughts, ideas, experiences?

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use the sign of the cross, standing, walking, sitting (can't kneel, bad knees), and flat out prostration.

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I've tried improv dancing (very privately) but find myself falling back on the same very limited number of movements, which is a bit distracting.

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It sounds like you're coming up with your own private movement vocabulary. You can work with that even if it seems repetitive at first. You can extend the number of movements by going over them slowly and finding out what follow-up movements and gestures seem natural to you. For example, if you're always taking a step to the right, what does your left foot want to do? Does it want to step forward? Behind yourself? Does your body want to bend one direction or twist in another direction? Things like that. Find out what movements come naturally to you after the ones you already know and learn them.

Hope this helps. Maybe I'll think of something else to add later.

*It just so happens that in my cultural background (Mexican) there is a tradition of dancing at religious events but it's a little hard to use feathers, rattles and drums without waking up the neighbors.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Originally posted by balaam:
Or hill cycling.

The view to the top shows the wonder of God and his creation. But there's something prayerful bout the struggle to get there as well. It is not just that the walk or cycle helps us to pray, in a sense it is a prayer in itself too.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Thank you! This helps a lot. Though now I really want the feathers and rattles :-).

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You're Welcome! If you're curious about what I was talking about, do a search for "matachines" and "concheros" on Wikipedia and Youtube.

I had a few more ideas that I think might be helpful. Much if not most of the modern dance that I studied was derived from Graham and Limón techniques. Graham technique was developed by Martha Graham, the great American modern dancer. Limón technique was developed by José Limón, the great Mexican-born modern dancer out of the technique of his mentor Doris Humphrey, Martha Graham's contemporary and rival. As a result, it's sometimes called Humphrey-Limón technique. The philosophy behind each technique can be summed up in two phrases. "Contract and release" for Graham, "Fall and recovery" for Limón.

"Contract and release" refers to the origin of movement in much of Graham's work, out of the body's core, specifically abdomen and pelvic area, and how its contraction and releas spurs the body's movement. "Fall and recovery" comes from Humphrey's belief, if I remember correctly, that dance lies in that space between a body's falling and rising.

I'm probably getting something wrong (it's been a while) and I'm vastly over-simplifying but that's the general idea and I think if you keep both of them in mind when you practice on your own it will give you ideas for movement and how to inhabit them, how to elaborate them and how to connect between them.

There's lots of stuff on Youtube so it couldn't hurt to look up these choreographer's work to get some ideas. It would help to look up dance in general and watch a lot of it. It's sort of like reading widely to develop a vocabulary. I wouldn't hesitate to incorporate the Tai-Chi and the dance you're learning as well.

Other things to remember:

"Breathe". It sounds ridiculous but you really do forget to breathe sometimes when dancing (or working out, or doing yoga, etc. for that matter0. "The ground is a taking-off place". Again, sounds artsy-fartsy but it's a pharase a teacher used all the time and gets across the idea of always being alert, always being ready to move even when your posing or standing still, like a cat."Don't die!", similar to the previous phrase of being alive and alert no matter what you're doing on stage but with prayer I'd connect this to recollection and bringing your thoughts together back from wandering. "Length over height, control over speed" is something I'd remind myself when practicing. Before trying any high kicks or anything fancy make sure you're stable, lengthen your movements and keep balance, among other things. Tai-Chi should help with that. There were a couple of other things I wanted to add, practical stuff, but now I've forgotten .

Going back to Youtube, look up Pina Bausch. Ingo mentioned her above. You'll get an idea of the range of expressive movement out there, like the lady in white in this clip. A number of choreographers have done work on spiritual subjects and themes. The most famous of these in the U.S. is Alvin Ailey's "Revelations", based on his experience in the African-American church. Clips of it are available on Youtube. Martha Graham did work with spiritual themes too. "Primitive Mysteries", "El Penitente", "Seraphic Dialogue". There's a segment from "Seraphic Dialogue", a work about St. Joan of Arc, available here.

Finally, José Limón did some work with a spiritual theme as well. A long, long time ago I was fortunate enough to attend a workshop given by current and former members of his company where we worked on material from some of his work. One of the things we did was work on parts of some of his work including a segment of "There is a Time", a work based on the famous passage from Ecclesiastes ("For every season, turn, turn, turn..."). You can see a video of the this work here: José Limón - There is a Time.

I hope this all gives you some inspiration.

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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The original song text, a macaronic alternation of Medieval German and Latin, is thought to have been written by the German mystic Heinrich Seuse circa 1328. According to folklore, Seuse heard angels sing these words and joined them in a dance of worship. In his biography (or perhaps autobiography), it was written:

Now this same angel came up to the Servant (Suso) brightly, and said that God had sent him down to him, to bring him heavenly joys amid his sufferings; adding that he must cast off all his sorrows from his mind and bear them company, and that he must also dance with them in heavenly fashion. Then they drew the Servant by the hand into the dance, and the youth began a joyous song about the infant Jesus ...

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The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic is a treasured Dominican document on St. Dominic’s manner of praying. It was written by an anonymous author, probably at Bologna, between 1260 and 1288. Sister Cecilia of the Monastery of St. Agnes at Bologna (who had received the habit from St. Dominic) and others who had known him personally were most likely the source of this information.

These ways of prayer were the actual practice of our Holy Father. Standing, bowing, kneeling—St. Dominic knew that the gestures of the body could powerfully dispose the soul to prayer. In this experience of bodily prayer, the soul in turn is lifted to God in an act of praise, thanksgiving, and supplication. These ways of prayer are a glimpse into the inner life of St. Dominic and his intense love for God.

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