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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Change and Nostalgia in All Around I See
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The longer I live, the more aware I am that there have been many changes in church practices, liturgy, worship - nothing stays the same for long. Whilst I'm sure that there are many reasons why people should adapt to new ways, I also have a sneaking suspicion that we have lost something valuable in what has been discarded.
For example, I really miss the Mattins canticles - yes I know that, as a regular service, Mattins did really have to go. But those canticles were rather special, surely we could still sing them once in a while?
(If you don't already know them, try Googling Venite, Te Deum, Benedicite, Benedictus, Jubilate - for the words and also for some quite magnificent settings.
O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise him and magnify him for ever.
What would you like to retain in the church from times past, even if only for special occasions?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Chorister quote:
I know that, as a regular service, Mattins did really have to go
Really: why?
In any case, Matins hasn't 'gone', there are still churches where Morning Prayer according to the BCP is celebrated.
There is no good reason why churches can't use the morning canticles within the context of a eucharist if they choose.
The Te Deum laudamus, in particular, was traditionally sung to mark celebrations: which is why we sang it at my church to mark the Golden and Diamond jubilees of HM The Queen.
The Benedicite omnia opera is about the most appropriate thing ever for celebrating God in creation and, as such, fits right into a Harvest service. If you don't want the full version, there are shortened ones (they only use the Praise him and magnify him for ever at the end of every third verse) - and the Jubilate Deo can also be appropriate for general thanksgiving.
The words of the Benedictus are particularly suitable for Advent and could be slotted into a eucharistic service where the Gloria normally goes.
All it needs is a little ingenuity and thought.
But again I come back to the point: what is wrong with Matins?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There's a bit of anecdotal evidence- some of it came up in another thread here recently- that the decline of Mattins alienated quite a lot of people who wanted to worship but for one reason or another did not feel able to make the degree of commitment that they understood a Eucharist to require. (I think Mrs A, whose preference was usually for Evensong or the monthly Mattins that our then church used to schedule, is one such.) I'm a weekly Communion man myself (although I use a slightly abbreviated BCP MP for private prayer) but I think that some churches might do well to consider a reintroduction of Mattins, even if only monthly as the main morning service, or alongside a Eucharist as one of two morning services, time and staff permitting.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
In any case, Matins hasn't 'gone', there are still churches where Morning Prayer according to the BCP is celebrated.
<snip>
But again I come back to the point: what is wrong with Matins?
No Eucharist, would be my guess.
When I was growing up and attending services at my Episcopal church, the 8:00 AM service was morning prayer; the 11:00 AM service was Holy Communion. I love the morning prayer service but it is not easy to find one on a Sunday in most Episcopal churches, at least around here. At the Episcopal churches I have attended in the last 12+ years, the early service is Holy Communion (without music) and the 10 or 11 AM service is Holy Communion (with music).
I read the morning daily office from a book called Contemporary Office Book. As well as the daily office prayers and collects from the BCP, it includes the Psalter, and the text of all readings from the Bible for each day. It also has those wonderful canticles, and a daily schedule you can follow to read them, so each day you are reading a different one. It's really lovely to recite those beautiful hymns of praise that I grew up with; they are part of my DNA.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The Te Deum laudamus, in particular, was traditionally sung to mark celebrations: which is why we sang it at my church to mark the Golden and Diamond jubilees of HM The Queen....
But again I come back to the point: what is wrong with Matins?
The Te Deum can be sung at the end of solemn or festal evensong to mark major feats such as Easter.
What's wrong with Mattins is that it isn't the Eucharist.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I know that Matins (or Evensong, for that matter) isn't a eucharist - otherwise it would be differently titled.
But why does every service have to be a communion service? IIRC at the Last Supper the disciples were enjoined to 'do this is memory of me' - no frequency was specified.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
To get away from the argument of Matins vs Eucharist and return to the original question, I've known the Jubilate and Benedictus sung as anthems at the Eucharist, although I agree many of these pieces are sadly neglected. I was well into my thirties when I encountered the Benedicite for the first time and was blown away by the beauty of the words.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Surely, by and large, the MOTR churches that used to have Choral Mattins have become Eucharist-centred (and few of them these days, including many cathedrals, have the resources to mount two 'main' services every Sunday.) There are very few 'Prayer-Book-Evangelical' churches that might have Mattins as a regular main service: the tendency is for 'all-age family worship' or unstructured Praise services.
It's difficult enough for people to commit to an hour of church every Sunday, let alone the full round of Prayer Book services. The lack of young (i.e. under 50) people in church is not simply because of lack of faith, but the competing demands of modern life (children's football, shopping, family days out, etc. But I don't think the church should give up.. there might not be the numbers to make up choirs or congregations for choral services as of yore, but it is possible to maintain the celebration of the liturgy in simple but festive form provided there is a nucleus. In that way the church is 'keeping the kettle on the boil', as a priest I knew used to say, for anyone and everyone to pop in as and when they feel called. But if only one service is provided it must surely be the eucharist.
What I miss is the lack of daily mass in so many places. Nowadays only cathedrals and a few 'shrines' seem to keep the tradition going, whereas only 20 years ago or so many MOTR and most churches with any pretence to be 'catholic' would offer the eucharist daily. Shortage of priests is one reason, though hardly a compelling one (RC priests are even thinner on the ground yet most RC parishes manage a daily mass); shrinking congregations another, but again, a service attended by two people is making an offering to God and 'keeping the kettle on the boil' just as much as one with a congregation of a dozen or two.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I know that Matins (or Evensong, for that matter) isn't a eucharist - otherwise it would be differently titled.
But why does every service have to be a communion service? IIRC at the Last Supper the disciples were enjoined to 'do this is memory of me' - no frequency was specified.
"Do this as often as you drink it" seems to imply a certain degree of frequency, and pretty much all traditions seem to agree that communion should be celebrated at least weekly (even Calvin, despite the practice of many Calvinists). Not necessarily every service, but communion is the summit and centre of Christian worship and it is appropriate that it be the main act of worship of a Christian community each week. I like Matins too, but give me the choice of Matins or the Eucharist for a Sunday service and I know which I'd choose.
I suppose the obvious thing to do if you live in a parish where Matins is not a regular feature is to offer to lead it yourself, prior to the main Sunday service. It's not essential that it be led by a priest, after all.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The previous, previous vicar (gosh, have I been there that long?!) kept some of the Mattins canticles going by having one instead of the Psalm from time to time. I also like the idea of singing one as an anthem occasionally.
Something else I miss in church, from a purely sartorial point of view, is the sight of ladies wearing hats. Our last hat wearer joined the choir about 15 years ago, exchanging her fascinating collection of hats for a choir robe, and the practice died out. Now you only see them at weddings, and even they have gradually been replaced by fascinators. Choir hats for women disappeared when I was still a Treble. What would St. Paul think of today's brazen women?!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The previous, previous vicar (gosh, have I been there that long?!) kept some of the Mattins canticles going by having one instead of the Psalm from time to time. I also like the idea of singing one as an anthem occasionally.
Something else I miss in church, from a purely sartorial point of view, is the sight of ladies wearing hats. Our last hat wearer joined the choir about 15 years ago, exchanging her fascinating collection of hats for a choir robe, and the practice died out. Now you only see them at weddings, and even they have gradually been replaced by fascinators. Choir hats for women disappeared when I was still a Treble. What would St. Paul think of today's brazen women?!
If it makes you happy Chorister, I worshipped with a C. of E. church where the choir still followed the practice of the women (both of them) wearing caps just this last Christmas. One of the churches in Norwich followed the same custom until a few years back but I think their choir is now defunct...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Might one mention albs + amices (rather than cassock-albs) here?
[ 01. March 2015, 20:34: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Proper lined out psalm singing. I couldn't find a good example in English on line, but this is what it sounds like in Gaelic.
It sounds just as lovely in English. It just soars.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
No! ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) (that comment is regarding the use of cassocks and cottas/surplices, in case you didn't guess)
[ 01. March 2015, 20:47: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Might one mention albs + amices (rather than cassock-albs) here?
Albs & amices are worn where I am
[ 01. March 2015, 20:59: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Does anyone still sing the BCP Litany? I miss that, too.Have mercy upon us, miserable sinners.
The emphasis had to be on the first syllable of 'miserable', milking it for all it was worth.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
For example, I really miss the Mattins canticles - yes I know that, as a regular service, Mattins did really have to go. But those canticles were rather special, surely we could still sing them once in a while?
In the Canadian rubrics, the "Act of Praise" or Song of Praise in the beginning need not be the Gloria in Excelsis for the Eucharist. You could theoretically substitute the Te Deum for the Gloria in the Eucharist.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
"Do this as often as you drink it" seems to imply a certain degree of frequency, and pretty much all traditions seem to agree that communion should be celebrated at least weekly (even Calvin, despite the practice of many Calvinists).
But weekly communion is a very recent innovation (outside the RC & Orthodox churches). Until the Parish Communion movement of the 40's and 50's, the "normal" Sunday morning service was non-Eucharistic.
Personally, I see no reason (other than slavish adherence to Canon Law) why the Eucharist should be the main service every Sunday. I wouldn't want to go back to the situation I encountered in the New Church movement, where The Lord's Supper was an extremely irregular occurrence. But does it really have to be every week?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I'm not sure I miss canticles as such. But I do think it is sad that it's an either/or situation. You have BCP Mattins and canticles, OR you have Eucharist and hymns (or free service and happy clappy worship songs). There is no reason why you couldn't include canticles in ANY other type of service. They are usually just as eady to sing as anything else. Well, there IS a reason: no one knows them any more except in churches which still do Mattins. I wonder what some younger congregations would make of things like the Venite. I suspect that they wouldn't be too fazed...
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Wot I miss most in Church these days is people.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
I'm a young 'un, so this is hardly "nostalgia" for me, but I would like to see a schedule something like this.
On ordinary Sundays: Simple service of Morning Prayer (perhaps abbreviated by removing one Lesson and one Canticle), immediately before the Eucharist.
On Great Feasts: Full-blown Choral Mattins, followed by a brief intermission for those only attending one service to leave or arrive, and then the Eucharist.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
"Do this as often as you drink it" seems to imply a certain degree of frequency, and pretty much all traditions seem to agree that communion should be celebrated at least weekly (even Calvin, despite the practice of many Calvinists).
But weekly communion is a very recent innovation (outside the RC & Orthodox churches). Until the Parish Communion movement of the 40's and 50's, the "normal" Sunday morning service was non-Eucharistic.
It was a "very recent innovation" for which we have strong evidence from the 150s (Justin's First Apology) onwards, which was only changed after over a thousand years of Christian continuity in Britain during the Reformation by the innovation of NOT having the Eucharist.
"Tradition" is what my grandparents did, "innovation" is anything else, right?
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Proper lined out psalm singing. ... It just soars.
WE had an organ (suburbs, 60's and 70's) but one Sunday it broke down (or whatever organs do) and we had a "Precentor".
Never forgotten it.
And I can't even sing well.
There is a little on YouTube from the wilds of Scotland in English (see David Murray's channel)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Wot I miss most in Church these days is people.
Ian J.
I miss large numbers at evensong. In the church I used to attend as a child, it was the most popular service of the day, so very well attended by people of all ages. Now, we get 20-30 in the nave plus 20-30 in the chancel. And I've been told that is an unusually large number compared with other churches which still do evensong - may don't. Guess everyone has been hastily revising their expectations over the years.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Does anyone still sing the BCP Litany? I miss that, too.Have mercy upon us, miserable sinners.
The emphasis had to be on the first syllable of 'miserable', milking it for all it was worth.
Let me paint you a picture Chorister...
My church is down to one service a month. It does full sung BCP Mattins, with Hymns A&M, robed choir, 10 minute sermon, priest in scarf and MA Oxon hood. At the dismissal the priest goes to the door to shake hands with those congregants clearing out at that point....then comes back and picks up with the comfortable words and launches straight into "shortened Holy Communion."
All done in an hour and quarter.
And, surprisingly, about 100-150 in the congregation every month.
some reasons why that have been speculated:
- because it's only once a month people find it easier to commit to it
-people that only want Mattins can have it
- people that want the Eucharist can have it
- the priest is a fine preacher
One other point - and I'm getting close here that some will know where I'm talking about but I'm not going to out it... It was going to be absorbed into a multi-church benefice 10 years ago (when it was down to one service a month anyway). Quick as a flash, the PCC passed A,B, and C, put themselves under a flying bishop and petitioned for a non-stipendiary p-in-c.
Net result, they don't have any more services than they would have had if the merger had gone ahead, but people are coming from all the villages in the united benefice they would have joined to worship there because it gives them what they want. And it's not (really) a dead horses thing - more that the patron (who lives in the village) saw a canny way to get round the diocesan restructure and preserve the village church as the village church.
It's a time capsule, but we don't get " church tourists" really and it works for the locals.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Nice one- and an illustration of the continuing value of patronage, if done well.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Precisely, Betjemaniac: we try to give people what they want and that is for the church to be for the whole of the parish as a centre, not some private club. And our PinC has had to accept that includes keeping Matins as a main service at least once a month.
We're now reintroducing Evensong - first took place yesterday and the turnout was about the same as for a parish eucharist (it was Family Eucharist in the morning).
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps now that churches are joining together in groups, it would be more possible for each church to have a specialism, in addition to a main Eucharistic service. For example, in the summer months, a rather special church - well known to tourists - has a weekly Evensong by gaslight. There is a small regular congregation, supplemented by tourists during the season. That church would probably find it hard to keep going without such a specialism, and would probably cease to be viable. I guess the trick is to discern what each church would be particularly good at, and to offer that - so there is variety across the whole group. I like the idea of one church being seen as having a particular mission to offer Mattins! After all, there might be another church, perhaps close to a school, which goes great guns for Messy Church....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We never had a Mattins canticle in place of the Gloria, but instead of the Psalm, during the Eucharist, on occasion. Up until about 10 years ago.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Does anyone still sing the BCP Litany? I miss that, too.Have mercy upon us, miserable sinners.
The emphasis had to be on the first syllable of 'miserable', milking it for all it was worth.
It was sung in procession at St Mary Redcliffe on Ash Wednesday. We also keep up weekly choral Mattins. The Eucharist is much better attended...
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps now that churches are joining together in groups, it would be more possible for each church to have a specialism, in addition to a main Eucharistic service. For example, in the summer months, a rather special church - well known to tourists - has a weekly Evensong by gaslight. There is a small regular congregation, supplemented by tourists during the season. That church would probably find it hard to keep going without such a specialism, and would probably cease to be viable. I guess the trick is to discern what each church would be particularly good at, and to offer that - so there is variety across the whole group. I like the idea of one church being seen as having a particular mission to offer Mattins! After all, there might be another church, perhaps close to a school, which goes great guns for Messy Church....
I think that this is a great idea. But why restrict it to parishes that are formally grouped together? Why shouldn't ANY group of churches reasonably close together begin to liaise in order to provide a breadth of good quality services where each church can focus on what it is good at?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have The Litany during at Matins during Lent and Advent.
But then we also sing Easter Anthems during the octave (they are the Gradual at the Parish Eucharist on Easter Day) - anyone else out there do that?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It is encouraging to see that there are still pockets existing of what, to some of us, were significant services and components of services. I guess what I miss is their widespread 'Common' usage, and especially their use within easy reaching distance of my part of Creamtealand. Perhaps I should base one of my holidays around a church / cathedral / abbey where such things are still practised. In any case, occasional use ensures that such things remain special, rather than humdrum. Rather like I feel about incense, for example.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
My personal desire is to sing the Mattins canticles again from time to time. But this conversation doesn't only have to be about those. Are there other things that other people would like to see in today's church which haven't been part of common practice (at least in your area) for a long while?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I'd love to see nuns in habits, priests in cassocks and birettas, and the tiara on the Pope's head.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Wot I miss most in Church these days is people.
Ian J.
I miss large numbers at evensong. In the church I used to attend as a child, it was the most popular service of the day, so very well attended by people of all ages. Now, we get 20-30 in the nave plus 20-30 in the chancel. And I've been told that is an unusually large number compared with other churches which still do evensong - may don't. Guess everyone has been hastily revising their expectations over the years.
I attended evensong at King's last Saturday, when the music was mostly of a fairly challenging nature. By the time the doors opened at 5.15, the back of the queue was somewhere out on Kings Parade.
It wasn't like that when I was an undergraduate 40 years ago, and there certainly wasn't any need to reserve the stalls and sub-stalls for members of the college and university (respectively) as is done now. Back then, anybody could sit in the stalls and feel the considerable downdraught from the windows on back of their neck.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Mind you, what does Kings charge to see the chapel, outide services, nowadays? Same thing is a factor I suspect in large numbers at evensong in cathedrals which charge for admission. (I think in those cases- not Kings- on balance I'd prefer free entry and sparsely attended daily services to large congregations who are there because the Dean and Chapter think that it is acceoptable to charge to enter the House of God.)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Couldn't agree more, Albertus.
But then its the old problem that the vast majority of occasional, non-churched visitors to churches and cathedrals (either for services or just as tourists) will, if left to their own devices, either give nothing at all or leave a generous 50p/ £1 in the plate.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:I attended evensong at King's last Saturday, when the music was mostly of a fairly challenging nature. By the time the doors opened at 5.15, the back of the queue was somewhere out on Kings Parade.
It wasn't like that when I was an undergraduate 40 years ago, and there certainly wasn't any need to reserve the stalls and sub-stalls for members of the college and university (respectively) as is done now. Back then, anybody could sit in the stalls and feel the considerable downdraught from the windows on back of their neck.
Which is why, a few days earlier, we had decided to go to Evensong at St. John's instead! (Actually it turned out to be choral eucharist for some reason). The music was glorious (Palestrina) and splendidly sung, but people had definitely come to worship rather than for a religious concert sort of thing. There were about 40 present, not counting choir and clergy: no queue!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Mind you, what does Kings charge to see the chapel, outide services, nowadays?
£8.50, I think.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Mind you, what does Kings charge to see the chapel, outide services, nowadays?
£8.50, I think.
It's free to members of the University both current and also past graduates.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
Re-Mattins - with plans to reduce further the number of stipendiary clergy, it might make a comeback here.
Currently we have two churches sharing a vicar. When he retires, we shall get one vicar for 3 churches. So it's likely that two churches would get a eucharist in the morning - 9.30 and 11. The other would get it at 6pm.
I can imagine us doing a full blown choral mattins (with a said with hymns HC in the evening)- we last did so during the interregnum and it was quire popular.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
But weekly communion is a very recent innovation (outside the RC & Orthodox churches). Until the Parish Communion movement of the 40's and 50's, the "normal" Sunday morning service was non-Eucharistic.
Pedantic note: It may have reached your area at that time, but the parish communion movement actually dates from the 1920s and 1930s.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
Indeed, and there is a church in my neck of the woods which dates its current practice from then.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I'd love to see nuns in habits, priests in cassocks and birettas, and the tiara on the Pope's head.
I mean, even on the wilder shores of Anglo Catholicism I'm not sure anyone does a papal tiara, but I can point you in the direction of several CofE churches in Oxford where you could see the first two....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re-Mattins - with plans to reduce further the number of stipendiary clergy, it might make a comeback here.
Currently we have two churches sharing a vicar. When he retires, we shall get one vicar for 3 churches. So it's likely that two churches would get a eucharist in the morning - 9.30 and 11. The other would get it at 6pm.
I can imagine us doing a full blown choral mattins (with a said with hymns HC in the evening)- we last did so during the interregnum and it was quire popular.
The unfortunate thing is that those churches most likely to be deprived of a Priest on a Sunday morning are those least likely to be able to do justice to full blown choral matins.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
I know of very few churches with the resources for a 'full choral Mattins' or Eucharist, or any other service demanding a cathedral style choir. Maybe I move in the wrong circles, but most parishes are lucky to have an organist. A music group consisting of varied instrumentalists would be a bonus (before the usual suspects faint with horror, this doesn't necessarily imply amplified guitars and Kendrick).
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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