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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Change and Nostalgia in All Around I See
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Really? Since Matins (or any other non-Eucharistic liturgy) doesn't require the presence of an ordained minister it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of any parish to provide a true choice of 'main' service.
Yes, some worshippers may prefer a Lay Reader (or at least someone in cassock and surplice) but it is possible to have full Choral Matins without a priest, deacon or reader - I know, because we do it.
Time-wise it should be possible to fit one in, but priority-wise, churches seem to want to spend their time on other things than services now. Perhaps it's more an idea of getting out amongst the people, rather than expecting them to come into church for a service. (Or maybe by Sunday evening, everyone is tired and don't want to turn out again for anything else.) How else to explain that a very large proportion do not even have a Sunday evening service these days (Evensong doesn't require leading by a priest, either).
A newly-done deacon of my acquaintance complains that his proposal to have the offices daily in the parish (downtown Toronto) was nixed as it was made clear that this would interfere with staff meetings - he notes that as a former street social worker, he was well used to committee meetings but had foolishly thought clerical life would be less bureaucratic and more liturgical. With about 20 hours a week of various meetings (he keeps track), 10-15 of admin, and about 15-20 of pastoral work, he says that it is no wonder that the clergy feel too tired and burned out to go to services.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
O dear. Our 'staff meetings' naturally follow on from daily Morning Prayer, as we move from the Church to our nearby community centre café for breakfast (accompanied by a very powerful Fairtrade double espresso...)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Depends how early you want to, or can, get out ...
For instance, that pattern might not work for a clergyperson with a working spouse who leaves the house early, so has to get children off to school. That was true of me some years ago: I basically couldn't get to anything before 9am in term-time.
I like the sound of the coffee - I note that it's not "church instant" ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) !
[ 15. April 2015, 14:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Angloid quote:
Cathedrals are in the fortunate position that they can provide different experiences of worship to suit different personalities and backgrounds. The difficulty most of us in ordinary parishes find, is finding the 'one size' that truly 'fits all': few churches are able to put on more than one 'main' service and this is bound to be something of a compromise.
Really? Since Matins (or any other non-Eucharistic liturgy) doesn't require the presence of an ordained minister it shouldn't be beyond the capabilities of any parish to provide a true choice of 'main' service……..
Pie-in-the-sky? Well no. We have a PinC who thought as you did about 8am BCP being a fair 'alternative' and we called his bluff by getting a vote for an experimental period of having Choral Matins at 09:45 and a BCP Choral Communion at 11:00. To his amazement the total numbers at both services went up and its become a fixture; in fact its enabled us to produce evidence that the service that attracts previously un-churched people is Matins - not well-received by either archdeacon or bishop!
To be fair to all needs you'd have to have at least three services: prayer book Mattins, informal family service, and Eucharist. Since round these parts many churches struggle to get above 30 people attending any service, offering three would run the risk of splitting the potential attendance. And not many potential worshippers would be attracted to a congregation of 10 people trying to sing Anglican chant (or reciting the psalms and canticles without music). Maybe such an experiment would work in many places, but I would trust the pastor's judgement that it might be disastrous.
Many churches attempt to solve this by alternating styles of service week by week. Apart from alienating those for whom weekly communion is non-negotiable, this approach assumes that casual attenders run their lives according to the church's programme rather than just turning up when they can or wish.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Our Place has 930am BCP Matins every Sunday - the Parish Mass - Common Worship Order 1 - with (allowed) Carflick bits follows at 1030am.
Despite being advertised on the Prayer Book Society's website, and, of course, on our own websites and noticeboards, we have yet to see a congregation at Matins of more than 6. Where is the enthusiasm for this service of which some of you speak? Or should we be doing more to advertise it (sensible suggestions welcome!)?
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My devotion to BCP Mattins is insufficient to overcome my aversion to such an early start of a Sunday morning.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloic quote:
To be fair to all needs you'd have to have at least three services: prayer book Mattins, informal family service, and Eucharist.
Eh?
Prayer book Matins - I assume you mean BCP? OK, no problems and it is a bona fide liturgy.
Eucharist - you don't stipulate but could be BCP or one of the Common services (such a well-named book, Common Worship).
"informal family service" - what? Where from?
In the bad old days before liturgical reform everyone went to services that, by-and-large, were as printed in the BCP. If we didn't understand them all at the age of 4 we did at 14 and people without children under 10 (even then the majority) didn't have to put up with some half-baked, home-knitted "worship" experience aimed at a not very bright 6 year old.
Yes, I know the clergy are firmly wedded to the idea of liturgy-lite (sorry, "family worship") but it could be because they have so little experience of taking children to church themselves. I know my own father was absolutely useless at taking us when we holidayed - we played him up deliberately but in general he cracked before the creed - until mama intervened and it was agreed we could either go to 8am or evensong, because they allowed for a full day on the beach.
Family Services have been around now for nearly 50 years - funnily enough the same period of time which has seen the greatest haemorrhaging of families from congregations. IME "informal family worship" is second only to service-time creches in guaranteeing that children never develop a church-going habit.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Angloic quote:
To be fair to all needs you'd have to have at least three services: prayer book Mattins, informal family service, and Eucharist.
Eh?
Prayer book Matins - I assume you mean BCP? OK, no problems and it is a bona fide liturgy.
Eucharist - you don't stipulate but could be BCP or one of the Common services (such a well-named book, Common Worship).
"informal family service" - what? Where from?
In the bad old days before liturgical reform everyone went to services that, by-and-large, were as printed in the BCP. If we didn't understand them all at the age of 4 we did at 14 and people without children under 10 (even then the majority) didn't have to put up with some half-baked, home-knitted "worship" experience aimed at a not very bright 6 year old.
Yes, I know the clergy are firmly wedded to the idea of liturgy-lite (sorry, "family worship") but it could be because they have so little experience of taking children to church themselves. I know my own father was absolutely useless at taking us when we holidayed - we played him up deliberately but in general he cracked before the creed - until mama intervened and it was agreed we could either go to 8am or evensong, because they allowed for a full day on the beach.
Family Services have been around now for nearly 50 years - funnily enough the same period of time which has seen the greatest haemorrhaging of families from congregations. IME "informal family worship" is second only to service-time creches in guaranteeing that children never develop a church-going habit.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I agree, l'Organist. To my mind, the Mass is the Family Service/ All age liturgy. But the sort of punters that would be deterred by the Eucharist are also likely to be put off by BCP Morning Prayer (which as a teenager - I never encountered it before - I found unutterably boring). So if you are catering for all tastes you need three services.
I don't understand your jibe at the title of Common Worship. It is Common in exactly the same sense that the Book of Common Prayer is common.
And you are guilty of gross generalisation in saying that 'the clergy' are sold on 'liturgy-lite'. Many - maybe too many - of them are, but I know many priests including myself who wild horses wouldn't drag into such a situation.
[ 15. April 2015, 16:53: Message edited by: Angloid ]
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Oh gosh. I think the kids (14 and under) who attend both of my churches like the liturgy even better than the adults do. One young man in particular (just turned 4, mind you) gets all excited when he comes in and immediately starts asking for "Jesus bread". Perhaps it is because I've recruited everyone who is in first grade and up to be acolytes, and make sure they all know they are ministers as surely as I am, and that they are an important part of our worship. I don't make any changes to the liturgy to make it an "all age" service. I haven't seen the need.
Maybe a liturgy-lite "family service" is good for other people in other places, but here we seem to be doing just fine with the weekly Communion service.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Returning to a question from Albertus a little while ago, on the only occasion I attended Sunday Matins at our Cathedral, there were about 40 people in the Quire. Most of them were the Choir, IYSWIM - only a dozen or so 'civvies'.
Mind you, much the same could be said of Evensong on a quiet winter Sunday! (A fair few more on High Days and Holydays, though).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Perhaps Chichester and the Medway towns have different demographics.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Very true, in part at least (though the MP for that part of our fair towns in which standeth the Cathedral is a Kipper...... ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I realise that Eccles denizens are never going to be fans of informal family worship, but I promise that it CAN work and can be enjoyable for everyone. Although I disagree with them on most things, evangelical Anglican churches with large and good youth and kids provision can do brilliant informal family services - other churches are just not good enough at youth and children's work to do them well. I can assure you L'Organist, I know many churches with both informal all age worship and creches that are heaving with people, never healthier, and multi-generational. It's MOTR and higher churches full of elderly people trying to attract families that fail at all-age worship, because such churches usually can't fund a full-time children's worker. I say that as a member of such a church. I feel like this is where ecumenism would really help.
Also I don't get the issue with creches - they're surely pretty essential if you want to keep families with babies around.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
(Or maybe by Sunday evening, everyone is tired and don't want to turn out again for anything else.) How else to explain that a very large proportion do not even have a Sunday evening service these days (Evensong doesn't require leading by a priest, either).
We used to have Evensong every week, early evening in the lighter months and mid-afternoon in the darker months. There was a fixed pattern of BCP or ASB (later CW) evening prayer depending on which Sunday in the month it was (5th Sundays were communion). There was no difference in the numbers between BCP and modern language services. Numbers were generally slightly higher for 5th Sundays. The choir were never available for it since before my time in the parish. Gradually numbers declined to the point where, even though the organist was there, there were too few of us to sing.
The PCC was keen to keep the service going because it had a view that there was a need to provide that alternative for those that wanted it. Numbers continued to drop as worshippers became too old to get out, or died. Very occasionally numbers were swelled by visitors, but typically there were no more then 4-8 recorded in the register, two or three of whom had come in order to unlock, count money, lead the service, play the organ etc. In the winter it was a regular occurrence for it to be just the minister and the duty churchwarden. In the end the PCC reluctantly agreed it to call it a day.
Currently we have a monthly informal evening service attracting 20-30, and (on a different Sunday) a 'Messy Church' attracting a very different clientele varying between a dozen and 30.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We have a simple monthly BCP Evensong (5pm on the third Sunday), followed by Benediction. Even with priest, thurifer and cantor, we rarely have more than 10 people present.
However.....although I say it myself, we do this sort of quiet, reflective service rather well at Our Place, and (at our Churchwarden's suggestion) have recently added a BCP Eucharist (sung to Merbecke) when there is a fifth Sunday. Again, only a small congregation, but if it meets the needs of those present, it's well worth making the effort.
I'd like to have a different style of service (Iona/Taize/Franciscan or whatever) on another Sunday, perhaps with tasty food to follow, and aimed at our (numerous) local students!
I think the point has been forcefully made, that whatever sort of service you put on, do it as well as you can.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
About 10 - 15 years ago, a short informal second morning service was trialled. It was aimed at young families and was non-Eucharistic. But it didn't catch on, because the existing families were happy with the usual Eucharist (with children's corner), and no new people came to the informal service.
We are fortunate in having several denominations in the town, they each offer something different in terms of worship style and content, so there is already quite a lot of choice. Maybe it is therefore not necessary for each church to offer several morning services, but perhaps they could work as a 'Churches Together' team and advertise each other's?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I'd like to have a different style of service (Iona/Taize/Franciscan or whatever) on another Sunday, perhaps with tasty food to follow, and aimed at our (numerous) local students!
Ian J.
This is where I chip in as an"insight" professional...
Is that based on any research? Do you *know* that's what the students want?
I mean, I worry that there's this thing where people say "go a bit taize or evo and the students will come.
I'm fully aware Oxford's not the real world but it manages to support MOR, nosebleed high, BCP, charismatic and snake belly low CoE student congregations.
Please don't assume students want what you'd "like" to offer. I make no doubt some would, but others absolutely won't. I certainly never darkened the doors of Exeter Uni's student services, precisely because they were patronising me with what you're talking about.
[ 16. April 2015, 19:21: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Basically, for a student service, you need a critical mass of students to come. You may have the sort of constituency where your plan will work- in which case good luck- but please be aware that if you make your "student" service like that, and get 50 students, you've probably slammed the door in the face of a different 50 students.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
When I was an undergraduate most of my chums were, like me, Choral Evensong fans. But we were rather fogeyish and that was in the days when God was a boy and His mother rode a bike*, so I appreciate that that will not be the case everywhere.
*Not really, but still getting on for 30 years ago.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Also I don't get the issue with creches - they're surely pretty essential if you want to keep families with babies around.
Why not bring the babies into church? I do.
One of my chief gripes with my current shack is that they keep organizing "family" events where what they mean is "send your kids to watch a DVD in room A while all the adults are doing the activity in room B".
That's not a family activity - it's an adult activity with babysitting.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
That's not a family activity - it's an adult activity with babysitting.
Except that more often than not, the 'adult' activity is aimed at the level of a rather dim 8 year old.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
My student sons are a pretty accurate guide to what 'yoof' want and their reaction to what some churches, and SUs, lay on for their age group is telling.
As one puts it, the only people happy with the SU at his uni are either very low-church ConEvos or people previously unchurched who are having problems fitting into university life.
In an attempt to fit in he tried going to the SU and, when asked what sort of service he liked, he told them: cue fit of the vapours from all the SU in-crowd and a lecture from the anglican chaplain about 'free worship'. Son goes to the local cathedral and has introduced 3 friends to the delights of Matins and Evensong.
Taize, unless done really well, can be toe-cringingly dreadful - IME it is much loved by the middle to elderly who grew up thinking Psalm Praise and its ilk were cutting edge.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Family Services have been around now for nearly 50 years - funnily enough the same period of time which has seen the greatest haemorrhaging of families from congregations. IME "informal family worship" is second only to service-time creches in guaranteeing that children never develop a church-going habit.
It's also the same period where non denominational churches have seen their greatest growth. IME such churches have grown because people have become disillusioned with a church which treats them as spiritual infants within the dualistic (and sub Christian) Platonic framework of clergy/lay. [It's not actually about new churches giving them what they want as many allege].
I agree about creches to the extent that in nay cases in the UK they aren't needed: there's no children there. In our own church we are quite ok with children interacting all the time but I know from personal experience that's not always the case. We also have a variety of liturgical forms (yes we Baptists aren't as free as we or others think) which encourage participation in some cases but generate awe and reflection in others.
I'm very ok with a hungry child being fed "in church" but I know that scandalises a lot of people who think a perfectly natural action should be shoved in a corner of a different room. That's part of the reason why creches started. I suppose for some the rot set in when families came to church with young babies who might need to be fed occasionally. Haven't they got homes to stay in? (Irony alert)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Also I don't get the issue with creches - they're surely pretty essential if you want to keep families with babies around.
Why not bring the babies into church? I do.
One of my chief gripes with my current shack is that they keep organizing "family" events where what they mean is "send your kids to watch a DVD in room A while all the adults are doing the activity in room B".
That's not a family activity - it's an adult activity with babysitting.
IME having a creche at least available makes things much easier for parents with breastfeeding babies, or toddlers that need distracting. There are plenty of badly-done church creches though and I agree that the example you give is not good.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My student sons are a pretty accurate guide to what 'yoof' want and their reaction to what some churches, and SUs, lay on for their age group is telling.
As one puts it, the only people happy with the SU at his uni are either very low-church ConEvos or people previously unchurched who are having problems fitting into university life.
In an attempt to fit in he tried going to the SU and, when asked what sort of service he liked, he told them: cue fit of the vapours from all the SU in-crowd and a lecture from the anglican chaplain about 'free worship'. Son goes to the local cathedral and has introduced 3 friends to the delights of Matins and Evensong.
Taize, unless done really well, can be toe-cringingly dreadful - IME it is much loved by the middle to elderly who grew up thinking Psalm Praise and its ilk were cutting edge.
Do you mean the CU? I have never known an SU to put on religious services. That would be quite unusual - where do your sons go to uni?
It's difficult when there's no local cathedral - I would have really valued one when I was at uni. There was the Catholic cathedral but obviously no Evensong, and I couldn't take Communion. Non-CU Christian societies struggle (with the exception of ones with an ethnic or cultural association eg black Pentecostal or Orthodox) and chaplaincies mostly deal with non-Christian students in my experience. It seems to work best when chaplaincies are independently-run, eg the multi-uni chaplaincy at Manchester.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My student sons are a pretty accurate guide to what 'yoof' want and their reaction to what some churches, and SUs, lay on for their age group is telling.
As one puts it, the only people happy with the SU at his uni are either very low-church ConEvos or people previously unchurched who are having problems fitting into university life.
In an attempt to fit in he tried going to the SU and, when asked what sort of service he liked, he told them: cue fit of the vapours from all the SU in-crowd and a lecture from the anglican chaplain about 'free worship'. Son goes to the local cathedral and has introduced 3 friends to the delights of Matins and Evensong.
But most young British Christians today haven't grown up with Matins and Evensong, so your son could hardly expect the CU (which is what I think you mean, rather than SU) to understand where he was coming from. He's surely no more representative of young Christians than the CU people are.
It's good that he's introduced Evensong to some of his friends. I love Evensong now, but when I was at uni in the early 90s I'd never heard of it. I didn't have much to do with the CofE then.
quote:
Taize, unless done really well, can be toe-cringingly dreadful - IME it is much loved by the middle to elderly who grew up thinking Psalm Praise and its ilk were cutting edge.
I think it's a bit of a shame that Taize has lost popularity now. It seems to have moved more to the fringe of things. Perhaps the Catholics are still keen on it, though.
[ 21. April 2015, 10:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Taize, unless done really well, can be toe-cringingly dreadful - IME it is much loved by the middle to elderly who grew up thinking Psalm Praise and its ilk were cutting edge.
I think it's a bit of a shame that Taize has lost popularity now. It seems to have moved more to the fringe of things. Perhaps the Catholics are still keen on it, though.
I'm sure there can be 'toe-cringingly dreadful' ways of presenting a Taizé service. As any other liturgical style. I think what is deeply needed, and appreciated, is a contemplative experience with plenty of silence, and if Taizé chants help with this, fine, but there are many other ways. Evensong, and for those who can take it, Benediction, can be wonderfully prayerful experiences. My problem with standard parish evensong (such as I have not experienced in years, never being at a church with a viable evening congregation) is that people try and turn it into a 'church service' which means overloading it with hymns, wordy prayers and sermon instead of just offering it, in the context of silence, as a contemplative office.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I go to Evensong regularly and find it lovely, but I do wonder how something of that type would work in the Non-conformist settings I'm more familiar with. Evening worship based around Taize-style atmosphere works well, IME.
BTW, is Evensong a copyrighted format, or could any Protestant church use it freely and tweak it for their own purposes?
[ 21. April 2015, 17:43: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
BTW, is Evensong a copyrighted format, or could any Protestant church use it freely and tweak it for their own purposes?
Of course. And not just Protestants: Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral (RC) used to sing BCP Evening Prayer every Sunday in the early 1970s. Even when they moved to the (then new) Divine Office version they kept (and AFAIK still keep) many Anglican settings for the Magnificat.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... Taize, unless done really well, can be toe-cringingly dreadful - IME it is much loved by the middle to elderly who grew up thinking Psalm Praise and its ilk were cutting edge.
There was a time when they were.
For a lot of us, we go on thinking that what was cutting edge when we were in our twenties, remains so. After a certain point, we never catch up. It's the same as how there was nothing less cool than our parents' taste in popular music.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Can't see why it wouldn't work in a Methodist setting (you are a Methodist, I think, Svitlana?). The Wesleys would have used it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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The Wesleys were employed by the CofE, but I doubt that Evensong was part of their evangelistic strategy. As for today, I think Evensong would provide an interesting change of pace for the British Methodist churches that still have evening services, but I can't imagine it as a permanent thing.
Looking at the website for Wesley's Chapel I see that the evening services there use Taize materials. Taize is probably a better fit for Methodism, ironically, than a traditional Evensong service.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Wesleys were employed by the CofE, but I doubt that Evensong was part of their evangelistic strategy.
I suspect you mean that the Wesleys were ordained to the C of E. They were great preachers and even though they travelled the country, were obviously blessed with great pastoral skills. It's a pity that the C of E could not retain them.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Albertus
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# 13356
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It is. And as C18 CofE clergy they would have used the 1662 BCP, including Evening Prayer (which is Evensong, though possibly without some of the musical accoutrements- I don't know enough about C18 worship practice to be sure, although no doubt some Shipmate does).
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
For better or for worse, services where it might be felt that the congregation simply observe what happens and the singing etc is all done by the choir and clergy don't sit well with most Methodist congregations - that would be the problem I would anticipate in regular use of Evensong in a Methodist congregation. The use of archaic language is also something we generally avoid - even our most formal liturgies would be in modern language. We did sing Choral Evensong once when I was at Wesley House but that would be the exception rather than the rule!
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Ah, you're thinking of Choral Evensong. But a non-choral sung evensong is as overtly participative as any other liturgical service.
Language: well, that's a matter of taste or prejudice, I suppose. 'Archaic' is rather a value judgement, isn't it?
[ 22. April 2015, 08:22: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Language: well, that's a matter of taste or prejudice, I suppose.
Yes, I agree - although as Christians we shouldn't be self-centred about this.
quote:
'Archaic' is rather a value judgement, isn't it?
No, I don't think so: language can surely be judged using objective semantic, grammatical and other criteria. For instance Milton necessarily wrote in "archaic" language, while "The Sun" uses contemporary language (or, at least, the peculiar journalistic version thereof).
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Yes, OK, on reflection I agree with you about 'archaic'. I have too often seen it used with overtones of 'obsolete' or 'incomprehensible', which it does not necessarily bear, and I jumped to assuming that that's what seasick meant.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes, OK, on reflection I agree with you about 'archaic'. I have too often seen it used with overtones of 'obsolete' or 'incomprehensible'.
![[Cool]](cool.gif) Of course, there is modern language (such as "management-speak", "legalese" or technical jargon) which can also be incomprehensible - not just to Joe Public but even, at times, to the folk who are supposed to be able to understand it!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
It is. And as C18 CofE clergy they would have used the 1662 BCP, including Evening Prayer (which is Evensong, though possibly without some of the musical accoutrements- I don't know enough about C18 worship practice to be sure, although no doubt some Shipmate does).
A bit, but not that much, and what I'm saying is possibly slightly late for period, Rev George Austen rather than Rev Gilbert White.
There are areas of doubt about this. After all, there's no one who can remember, and people don't tend to record what everyone at the time knows.
The service was usually held in the late afternoon. It opened with the evening hymn, 'Glory to thee my God this night' sung to the same tune as now. There might then be a metrical psalm. By the late C18, this was more likely to be sung from the New Version by Tate and Brady, than the Old Version by Sternhold, Hopkins and others.
A few rich town churches were beginning to install organs, but in most churches, the music was provided by a small band.
In many churches they would then have gone straight through the words of Evening Prayer in the BCP, including the appointed psalm(s) at the appropriate point, as 'reading psalms'. Often, the only music inside the service itself would be that there might be an anthem at the point 'in quires and places where they sing', an opportunity for the band and singers to show their prowess. The vicar and the parish clerk sang/bawled the versicles and responses backwards and forwards between each other.
After the service ended with the grace, there might be another metrical psalm, sung, then a sermon, and then a final sung metrical psalm.
In more adventurous places, towns say, they might try to chant the prose Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis. There are quite a lot of settings from the later part of the period, but nobody's quite sure how they handled the tempo.
Another area of doubt is to what extent people sang the metrical versions of the canticles and the appointed psalm(s) inside the service rather than before and after. Technically, it was probably illegal, but nobody really knows what happened. Away from cathedrals and a few minsters (e.g. Southwell) with employed choirs, it is fairly certain that nobody tried to sing the BCP prose psalms. They were read.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Ah, you're thinking of Choral Evensong. But a non-choral sung evensong is as overtly participative as any other liturgical service.
Language: well, that's a matter of taste or prejudice, I suppose. 'Archaic' is rather a value judgement, isn't it?
Sorry, yes, I did mean Choral Evensong.
The language used in the CofE Choral Evensong services I go to isn't particularly hard to understand, but by Methodist standards all the thees and thous are a bit excessive! It's just a different way of using the language.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Sorry- perhaps I didn't make it clear that I was posting in reply to seasick.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Gee Dee, the CofE did retain the Wesley brothers, both of were Anglicans when they died. The secession of Methodist societies from the CofE only occurred after John Wesley's death although, arguably it was inevitable that it was going to happen.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Thanks for that snippet Gamaliel - I had always understood that the brothers felt so isolated by the formal structures of the C of E (and of those holding power by virtue of those structures) that they left is sadness.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
@ExclamationMark, IME the growth in the non-denominational churches was largely fuelled by transfers from more traditional non-conformist churches such as Baptists and Brethren rather than Anglicans and Methodists - although these weren't unknown. There were also former FIEC people and plenty of Penties. The impact of the 'new churches' on the CofE was slight. The Vineyard had more influence in terms of inspiring events like New Wine among the Anglican charismatic constituency. Arguably, this served to 'democratise the holy' as someone once put it. However, just as you have identified that Baptist churches are more liturgical than they at first appear, I would add that nnon-denominational churches are far more 'clerical' than they appear. They have more Popes and prelates than even the most sacramental of churches - they don't realise how 'clerical' they actually are.
I would also suggest that many so-called non-denominational churches are also far more denominational than the denominations.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Gee D, Charles Wesley had no beef with the CofE whatsoever and was among his brother John's most severest critics when John started to 'ordain' his own preachers.
Some of what the Wesleys did went against conventional wisdom open air preaching, crossing parish boundaries etc - but in many ways they remained conventional Anglicans.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
I would also suggest that many so-called non-denominational churches are also far more denominational than the denominations.
Especially those who proudly say that they abhor denominations, and then mix only with those who share their precise form of antidenominational denominationalism.
If you see what I mean (and, yes, I've met them).
[ 22. April 2015, 22:33: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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