|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Richard III - RIP (almost!)
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I'm not sure what you mean, Gee D.
Elizabeth II became Queen at the moment her father, George VI died. She may not have been anointed and crowned at that stage - but if you only count someone as a monarch if they've been through the full coronation ritual then Edward VIII was never kind, notwithstanding the well-known newsreel of him watching his own proclamation, accompanied by Mrs Simpson.
The two queens consort to be buried during Elizabeth II's reign are Queen Mary and her own mother. She herself is not a queen consort but a regnant queen.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Even this colonial is well aware of the difference between a Queen Regnant (eg both Elizabeths) and a Queen Consort (eg Mary, wife of George V).
The question Callan asked was The reign of most English monarchs involves the funeral of one of their predecessors. Which monarch's reign involved two? At least 1 answer to that is Elizabeth II. Her reign commenced when George VI died, not when she was crowned and anointed, and his funeral was within her reign. Callan's post recognises that this will be the most common occurrence. Also within her reign was the funeral of Edward VIII - whose reign had commenced when George V died and ended upon his abdication. Both George VI and Edward VIII were among HM's predecessors. Of course, only George VI was an ancestor, but that was not Callan's question.
There may be earlier monarchs who fill the criteria.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
There were two deceased monarchs buried in William III's reign. One was Mary II who died in 1694. She was joint monarch with himself, and so not his predecessor. The other was James II who died in exile near Paris in 1701. Mary's funeral was a big occasion. Obviously, William would not have attended James's funeral.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have been looking without success for the programme of the service. Has anyone found it online?
Not sure if this will work where you are, or if this is what you're looking for, but hopefully here is a description of the service with pictures and the full text of the eulogy and sermon (both of which I thought were terrific). Clicking on the picture of the service booklets should get you PDFs of the order for the reinterment.
[ 27. March 2015, 18:52: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]
--------------------
Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
|
Posted
And it dawns on me that of course it was two days ago you were asking! ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) I hope you managed to find it in time, or if not that the link is of interest.
--------------------
Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
And it dawns on me that of course it was two days ago you were asking! I hope you managed to find it in time, or if not that the link is of interest.
Like Richard himself, the text is not time-sensitive.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
Mr Marten and I returned from Leicester yesterday, so I have only just found these threads about Richard.
We are both members of the Richard III Society, were fortunate enough to have our names drawn in the Society ballot and so were present in the Cathedral for the Reinterment.
I am not here going into whether or not Richard was a murderer (though I do not believe there is enough evidence to say that the Princes were killed by *anyone*, let alone Richard - indeed there is some evidence that at least one of them lived on) but here are some of my impressions of the week:
I was surprised and greatly encouraged by the thousands of people queuing up to view his coffin over the three days' lying-in-repose. We joined the queue on Tuesday morning and only waited for a brief hour before going in. We then hung around for the 1pm Eucharist, so had another opportunity to go in, and also attended Vespers later on, which was sung by the Dominicans of Holy Cross Priory.
Richard's statue was festooned with white roses, and there was an air of excitement and anticipation during the week. The Reinterment service was simple and moving and the Cathedral choir sang beautifully. I felt that Richard's humanity as a child of God was emphasised as well as his Kingship. He was not a devil nor a plaster saint, but a human being as we all are, and his record as king shows his concern for justice and for the common good. Among other things he promoted and protected English trade, and had the laws written in English for the first time. He protected the poor from corrupt officials and extended the use of bail for persons suspected of felony.
Not bad going for the brief two years of his reign. And as York City Records noted when hearing of his death: ''King Richard...late mercifully reigning upon us, was piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city.''
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
We are both members of the Richard III Society, were fortunate enough to have our names drawn in the Society ballot and so were present in the Cathedral for that he Reinterment.
(Snip)
And as York City Records noted when hearing of his death: ''King Richard...late mercifully reigning upon us, was piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city.''
I hope that the service lived up to its billing (and that Mr Cumberbatch's appearance was equally thrilling!)
Howeve, I'm not sure that York's comments can be taken as a disinterested report - the city was hardly likely to welcome the accession of a Tudor/Lancastrian king and so would have been keen to keep the memory of Richard a good one.
I did note the use of the correct title of the late King during Sunday's reception service:
"Richard, by the Grace of God King of England and France, Lord of Ireland"
(I expect there were a few other titles left out for the sake of economy and length of the service!)
--------------------
"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
|
Posted
Thank you for that, Boadicea Trott - it's a great pity though that they have in all the booklets consistently mistyped Richard's birthday as 3 May, when it was 2 October! As well as the typo that he was 17 in 1459 instead of 7...
--------------------
Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Even this colonial is well aware of the di
The question Callan asked was The reign of most English monarchs involves the funeral of one of their predecessors. Which monarch's reign involved two?
...There may be earlier monarchs who fill the criteria.
James VI would be another solution (Mary Stuart &Elizabeth Tudor though at that point there's probably loads) though a bit of a cheat.
Mary Tudor might be another real one? (Edward&LJG) And possibly there's something with Maud&Stephen.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
The obvious one is William III. The William of William and Mary with James I and Mary II(his wife) both dying in his reign.
By the way Elizabeth II does not count this was a re-internment not a funeral. The Franciscans would have done the original funeral mass when burying him in consecrated ground within their house.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
/pedant alert/
I think Jengie Jon means James II (died 1701).......
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
And I think she means 're-interment' rather than 're-internment'
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
The obvious one is William III. The William of William and Mary with James I and Mary II(his wife) both dying in his reign.
By the way Elizabeth II does not count this was a re-internment not a funeral. The Franciscans would have done the original funeral mass when burying him in consecrated ground within their house.
Jengie
But going back to Callan's criteria, Mary would not have been a predecessor of William - they acceded to the throne together.
As I have said before, Elizabeth II does at first glance appear satisfy them, with George VI and Edward VIII having their funerals in her reign.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Incidentally, it will undoubtedly be a future pub quiz question. The reign of most English monarchs involves the funeral of one of their predecessors. Which monarch's reign involved two.
Wouldn't that be three--George VI, Edward VIII, and Richard III?
I'm pretty sure the answer to Callan's question is Queen Elizabeth II, who experienced the burial of her father, and of Richard III.
--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Though the recent ceremony for Richard III was not a funeral, but a re-interment.
So, though the current queen Elizabeth would (it appears) be the correct answer the way to trick the pub-quizzers is for full marks to be awarded with correctly naming the predecessors.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Rev per Minute: quote:
Howeve, I'm not sure that York's comments can be taken as a disinterested report - the city was hardly likely to welcome the accession of a Tudor/Lancastrian king...
Just after the king has been killed in battle, when the Lancastrian usurper has attempted to have everyone who fought for Richard at Bosworth automatically declared traitors (and therefore liable to be hung, drawn and quartered) is precisely the time when a statement of support (for the dead king) is most likely to be disinterested.
It would have been far more prudent for them to keep their heads down and say nothing. Instead, they made a public record of their grief.
I'm not a member of the Richard III society, but suggesting that the City of York had their eye on the main chance when making that statement is a gross distortion of the facts.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
