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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Church of England (and therefore Anglicans) are Protestants??
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Now that I think of it, in the province of Ontario "Roman Catholic elector" is still a legally defined category of ratepayers for school board purposes. (My parents were among them). I remember pamphlets explain that this included "Roman and Ukrainian Catholics" - presumably a reflection of the latter's relative size to other Eastern churches in Canada, rather than of any disenfranchisement of, say, Melkites.
While this tangent is a slight removal from anything to do with the CoE, most colonial-era measures and post-Confederation legislation refers to "Roman Catholic" rather than "Catholic," (dioceses for many years were established by private acts of the assembly) as does The Canadian Style, which until a bout or convulsion of privatization, was the official government style book. In the savage wilds of eastern Ontario, where I was raised, Catholic was the term in common parlance, but in the Ottawa Valley, far more congregational in its tribalism than denominational in its consciousness, one spoke of the French or the Irish church. Protestant was a word only carefully used, as it suggested a common bond between respectable Presbyterians and Anglicans on the one hand, and Methodists and Baptists on the other, and we all knew better than that. In the 1960s, Anglican spawn were catechized to know that they were both catholic and protestant-- the previous generation had been given the face washed and the face unwashed metaphor, but we were spared that.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Interesting. Here BTW is the CofI's line on the question 'Protestant or Catholic?'
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Interesting. Here BTW is the CofI's line on the question 'Protestant or Catholic?'
I would have thought, and would certainly hope, that virtually all members of the CofE, and of other churches in the Anglican Communion would agree with that excellent summary by the CofI.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes- it's very good, isn't it?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Whatever the ecclesiantically pernickety may say, it doesn't avoid the simple and obvious fact that in the ordinary speech in the UK particularly among non-churchgoers, Catholic = Roman Catholic (Papist in the old days but that word isn't much used these days away from Northern Ireland) and Protestant = CofE, CinW, CofI, CofS and the rest.
Well yes, and it's not unusual in "ordinary speech" to be asked if one is "Catholic or Christian?"
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Whatever the ecclesiantically pernickety may say, it doesn't avoid the simple and obvious fact that in the ordinary speech in the UK particularly among non-churchgoers, Catholic = Roman Catholic (Papist in the old days but that word isn't much used these days away from Northern Ireland) and Protestant = CofE, CinW, CofI, CofS and the rest.
Well yes, and it's not unusual in "ordinary speech" to be asked if one is "Catholic or Christian?"
It certainly is in my experience! That seems to be a US thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda in the South Bay:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
It's only on the Ship that I've come across Anglicans who deny they are Protestants.
Really? I'd come across this a lot, long before I'd even heard of the Ship. You're obviously mixing with the wrong people ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Almost certainly - but the wrong people are a lot more fun!
As for Pomona's point, please remember the CoE was established by Elizabeth. There was a mild Reformation under Henry, a drastic one under Edward, a turning back under Mary, and finally the establishment of a via media under Elizabeth. By which time the term almost certainly did exist, and we were able to get the best of both worlds.
The Via Media was pretty much just retaining an episcopal government, with a very stripped down reformed liturgy and lots of iconoclasm. Not so much halfway between some sort of Protestantism and Catholicism, but an amped up Protestantism with bishops.
The via media was originally a middle ground between Wittenberg and Geneva. Contemporary Anglicans and Episcopalians who use it to describe a middle ground between Catholicism & Protestantism are using the phrase ahistorically.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
'Catholic' or 'Christian' is a term I have heard in the Middle East - probably coming from USA.
It raises then the question - not are Anglicans Catholics but rather are Catholics Christians ?
and in particular are Anglican Catholics Christians ???
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
TBH I'm just glad we're not burning each other at the stake over it these days. Thankful for small mercies and all that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Well yes, and it's not unusual in "ordinary speech" to be asked if one is "Catholic or Christian?"
I've heard some fringe evangelicals (in the UK sense) speak as though they thought like that, but that was 45+ years ago. In those days many Catholics thought the same except the other way round. I've never, even then, heard people use language that way. It would strike me as intolerant, self-righteous and deliberately offensive.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
To be honestI don't think it's meant to be insulting to anyone when 'Catholic' or 'Christian'
is used.
'Christian' is just a catchall term used of anyone who is not 'Catholic'.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
So it is okay to imply that Catholics aren't Christians?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Forthview, I see what you're trying to say. But the "Catholic or Christian" dichotomy suggests that the two things are mutually exclusive, rather than that one is a subset of the other.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
I have always liked the language of the Waterloo Declaration (the full communion agreement between The Anglican Church of Canada, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada): "We share a common heritage as catholic churches of the Reformation." I would also concur with comments upthread: to the extent that the Anglican Communion is a "via media," it is a via media between Calvinism and Lutheranism - not Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Well yes, and it's not unusual in "ordinary speech" to be asked if one is "Catholic or Christian?"
I've heard some fringe evangelicals (in the UK sense) speak as though they thought like that, but that was 45+ years ago. In those days many Catholics thought the same except the other way round. I've never, even then, heard people use language that way. It would strike me as intolerant, self-righteous and deliberately offensive.
Perhaps it is a mark of the unsavoury circles which I have frequented that I fear that this dichotomy is used more than we would wish. I think I can, offhand, count having heard it almost a dozen times over the years--- in some cases with embarrassment and a glance to see if anyone was listening but, in other instances.....
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
While it is true the term "Protestant" originated in a letter written by 36 German Princes protesting the excommunication of Luther as a heretic, it has taken on different meanings over time.
Another way of understanding the difference between churches of the catholic tradition is their belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper. Roman Catholics have the doctrine of transubstantiation. Anglicans have consubstantiation. Lutherans belief in the real presence in, with and under the bread and the wine, but we don't really have a term for it, other than it is a mystery. We all see the Lord's Supper as a sacrament, a sacred act will God's grace comes to us through a physical means.
Most Protestants will affirm a spiritual presence of Christ in the supper. They see it not as a sacrament, but as an ordinance--something .Christians should do as a part of Christian living.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I have always understood protestant as a definition which relates to a denomination's attitude to papal supremacy. It would certainly be possible to define it in relation to understandings of the Eucharist. In that case, however, the Church of England in some parts is protestant and in others is catholic, and the same is probably true across the breadth of the communion.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by crunt:
In east Asia, the idea that Catholicism and Christianity are distinct religions is quite a common one.
Would that go back to the language used by the earliest missionaries- RC ones talking about being Catholic, non-RCs talking about being Christian? Only a guess, mind.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I have always understood protestant as a definition which relates to a denomination's attitude to papal supremacy. It would certainly be possible to define it in relation to understandings of the Eucharist. In that case, however, the Church of England in some parts is protestant and in others is catholic, and the same is probably true across the breadth of the communion.
My (limited) experience suggests that some provinces lean much more one way than the other. The SEC seems to lean heavily in the Catholic direction, for example, presumably as a function of the dominant Church of Scotland picking up most folk who trend Protestant.
In terms of Eucharistic theology it would be pretty hard to define a single Anglican position, I would have thought, beyond maybe the statement attributed to Queen Elizabeth.
[ 01. May 2015, 06:43: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Protestants take the Bible as its sole authority.
Catholics balance scripture with tradition and reason.
Not all Protestants take the Bible as soul authority, some (ie Methodist) would take the same as the Catholics and add experience into the balance.
As would The Salvation Army; but then Salvationism came out of Methodism which came from Anglicanism. We are therefore in the Catholic stream rather than the Reformed stream. In fact, our doctrines in many respects are derived from Catholic and orthodox spirituality rather than Calvinistic thinking.
Our doctrines speak of the Bible being the 'only divine rule for Christian faith and practice' but we do look at reason and experience and the Holy Spirit too. If we didn't there wouldn't even be a Salvation Army.
[ 01. May 2015, 07:36: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In my somewhat limited experience of hearing 'Catholic' or 'Christian' it has been Filipinos who have used these terms.Perhaps the word 'Protestant' or the names of any of the thousands of Protestant groupings were unknown to them.
It is true that non Catholic evangelical groups use the word 'Christian' as opposed to anything else and that has possibly been picked up and used in general parlance.
I repeat that,at least when I have heard these terms used,it was not meant as an insult to anyone.
The whole theme of this discussion is one which only concerns those who are heavily involved in expressing who or what they are. We all know how the terms' Catholic' and 'Protestant' are generally used.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
... but rather are Catholics Christians ?
Well Forthview must know that fifty years ago that was a real question for many in Scotland. Separate schooling (and scouts and youth groups) meant that one could grow up with negligible experience of the other lot. For example, in my secondary school of 1200 pupils there was exactly one Roman Catholic, specially dispensed by the Bishop from travelling the 22 miles to the nearest RC school. Of course he was forbidden (by the Bp) to attend morning assembly. Was it odd that we asked him whether Catholics read the Bible, or knew the Lord's Prayer? Of course Scripture lessons were also verboten; so he missed the session when someone asked the visiting chaplain (a man of some distinction, part-time lecturer in the Divinity Faculty of the local Universsity) whether Roman Catholics could go to heaven---the chaplain was not prepared to say "yes".
I think quite a lot has changed for the better.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
I think quite a lot has changed for the better.
I agree.
Back in those days, both sides of the Reformation divide in the UK looked at each other in ways that were a pretty accurate mirror image of each other. Large numbers of both Protestants and Catholics took it for granted that they were the right and superior people of God and the poor benighted other lot were on a railway to the Lake of Fire.
A friend of mine at a nameless University that goes back to before the Reformation and is part of the CofE establishment (yes, I know that gives only two to guess from) was asked by a Roman Catholic fellow inmate "and which heresy do you practice?" Slightly jocular perhaps, but asked from a standpoint that implicitly took for granted the assumptions behind it.
Shipmates who have grown up since just do not appreciate how big a difference Vatican II has made to brains and souls on both sides of the Reformation.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think that the example that you give might still be found among a certain type of rather affected Oxbridge RC (and there are CofE equivalents)- or at least, it might have been when I was up 25 years ago.
Mind you, my favourite story of this kind, told to me by the person on the receiving end of it, is of a new and young Fellow of a rather conservative college being addressed as it were from a great height by one of these ghastly characters (a convert, as several of them were):
'Ah, so you're our new mathematical Fellow. Good Caartholic, I trust?'
'Well, no. actually: I'm Jewish'
'Jewish? Hmmm. [Pause] Oh well, at least it's old '.
Which actually I think is quite amusing, and so did the chap who told me about it.
[ 01. May 2015, 12:11: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I'm currently reading an old book , 'The Church of England' by Paul Ferris (1964), which seems to take it as read that CofE clergy of the time generally saw the Church as Protestant.
Things have surely changed now. To emphasise ones Protestant heritage is taken as a bit anti-Catholic, which is frowned upon by moderate Christians these days. Evangelicals appear to emphasise their evangelicalism rather than their Protestantism, and some scholars see global Pentecostalism as a different thing from Protestantism, rather than a sub-section of it.
It seems that the mainstream denominations that once specifically emphasised their Protestantism are a bit squeezed these days, at least in Britain. But some Anglicans in other contexts might find it more strategically useful to differentiate themselves from Roman Catholics by stressing their Protestant identity.
[ 01. May 2015, 12:21: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think that the example that you give might still be found among a certain type of rather affected Oxbridge RC (and there are CofE equivalents)- or at least, it might have been when I was up 25 years ago.
Still alive and well I'm afraid. I'm not at the university any more, but still near it. I've been called, in all seriousness, a heretic and a biscuit-worshipper in the last 6 months. And, yes, they were in deadly (if camp) earnest.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Full marks though to the chap in the back bar of the King's Arms who dismissed me in January as a member of the Church of Wantage - at least he displayed both a knowledge of the correspondence between Evelyn Waugh and John Betjeman, and the facility to deploy it properly in English conversation.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
.... deadly (if camp) earnest.
The worst kind. Poisonous.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Best counter ever heard to that sort of Caaartholic clap trap: friend's son was asked by snooty RC "and are you a Cartholic?" and received the reply "I'm sorry, father, I'm just a Christian". ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Protestants take the Bible as its sole authority.
Catholics balance scripture with tradition and reason.
Not all Protestants take the Bible as soul authority, some (ie Methodist) would take the same as the Catholics and add experience into the balance.
As would The Salvation Army; but then Salvationism came out of Methodism which came from Anglicanism. We are therefore in the Catholic stream rather than the Reformed stream. In fact, our doctrines in many respects are derived from Catholic and orthodox spirituality rather than Calvinistic thinking.
This reminds me of the conversation I had with two very sweet elderly ladies who inadvertently pronounced: "Of course, Methodism came out of Christianity". I took great pleasure of regaling my wife (who is a Methodist) with this story. Of course, the shoe was on the other foot a few weeks later when I reminded them that I was an NSM. "Oh yes. It's been years since we had a proper curate". When I mentioned this to a very holy and thoughtful member of the congregation she paused for a moment before saying: "Clearly Father, you are the improper curate!"
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Salvationism came out of Methodism which came from Anglicanism. We are therefore in the Catholic stream rather than the Reformed stream. In fact, our doctrines in many respects are derived from Catholic and orthodox spirituality rather than Calvinistic thinking.
I understand that Wesley came in for criticism for abandoning the Calvinism that dominated the CofE in his time, so I don't think his 'Catholic and orthodox spirituality', as you put it, was a particularly CofE trait.
Interestingly, I've come across a few Reformed criticisms of Revivalism and/or Pentecostalism which do see in these movements a kind of re-catholicisation of late Protestantism. John Wesley, as the grandfather of Pentecostalism, is seen as the originator of some of the 'Catholic' tendencies that the Reformed critics have highlighted.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Best counter ever heard to that sort of Caaartholic clap trap: friend's son was asked by snooty RC "and are you a Cartholic?" and received the reply "I'm sorry, father, I'm just a Christian".
The attitude that Catholic does not equal Christian is prevalent among a certain strain of evangelicalism in the United States. I'm afraid I don't find it funny at all.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Interestingly, I've come across a few Reformed criticisms of Revivalism and/or Pentecostalism which do see in these movements a kind of re-catholicisation of late Protestantism. John Wesley, as the grandfather of Pentecostalism, is seen as the originator of some of the 'Catholic' tendencies that the Reformed critics have highlighted.
In fairness, Reformed criticisms of most things revolve around them being too Catholic.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In The Salvation Army the 'catholic' features are things like our initial practice of baptising babies as opposed to believers baptism (which we never practiced) and our specific emphasis on holiness of life which comes from Wesley who took elements of Catholic and Orthodox teaching.
We also have an episcopal hierarchy in The Salvation Army.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I understand that Wesley came in for criticism for abandoning the Calvinism that dominated the CofE in his time, so I don't think his 'Catholic and orthodox spirituality', as you put it, was a particularly CofE trait. ...
I don't think that's generally true of the early C18 CofE. It was among the revivalists of the Great Revival in which the Wesleys were key players that this was an issue. I don't think latitudinarians, deists, high and dry, erastians or other strains of thought in the CofE at that time were particularly interested in Calvinism. I can't imagine Gilbert White of James Woodforde being particularly interested in such things.
Wales, I think, still has Calvinist Methodists, and I think the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion derive from similar roots. There was once one of their chapels in Bath but it's a museum now.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Another way of understanding the difference between churches of the catholic tradition is their belief in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper. Roman Catholics have the doctrine of transubstantiation. Anglicans have consubstantiation. Lutherans belief in the real presence in, with and under the bread and the wine, but we don't really have a term for it, other than it is a mystery. We all see the Lord's Supper as a sacrament, a sacred act will God's grace comes to us through a physical means.
Most Protestants will affirm a spiritual presence of Christ in the supper. They see it not as a sacrament, but as an ordinance--something .Christians should do as a part of Christian living.
But even this is an overgeneralization. Affirmation of a spiritual presence—which is also affirmed to be a very real and unique-to-the-Lord's-Supper presence—is characteristic of Reformed churches, who very definitely see the Lord's Supper as a sacrament not as an ordinance, and who simultaneously embrace being called "Protestant" and being part of the church catholic. (This view of the sacrament is also found in streams of Anglicanism.) Methodists (at least United Methodists in the States) also consider the Lord's Supper a sacrament.
In my experience, those Protestants who consider the Lord's Supper an ordinance rather than a sacrament will also deny any presence of Christ in the observance beyond the presence guaranteed whenever two or three are gathered in his name.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In The Salvation Army the 'catholic' features are things like our initial practice of baptising babies as opposed to believers baptism (which we never practiced) and our specific emphasis on holiness of life which comes from Wesley who took elements of Catholic and Orthodox teaching.
We also have an episcopal hierarchy in The Salvation Army.
I suppose those things represent the 'reasonable' side of Catholicism!
However, it could be argued that where we see some Pentecostals or Revivalists variously emphasising miraculous happenings, the sanctity and divine authority of their clergy (even when they're engaged in serious wrongdoing), the possibility of inanimate objects being infused with divine power (e.g. holy water or towels, etc.) a certain less respectable 'Catholic' influence is apparent there too.
The charismatic evangelical emphasis on 'feelings' is often criticised on this website, and Wesley's followers were similarly criticised. Some might see this tendency as closer to a certain type of emotional RC spirituality than the more rational, restrained sort encouraged by the Reformed tradition.
I'm sure it depends on what type of Catholicism we're talking about, though. Perhaps the average English RC church and URC congregation today are fairly similar in terms of their spiritual emphases and in their expectations of the church, despite the historical and official theological differences.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
The Salvation Army has never been 'Pentecostal' in doctrine.
The other aspect of catholicism that we espouse is the universality of salvation - Christ died for the world. This would be in opposition to the Calvinists who maintain that Christ merely died for the Church.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Are 'ordinance' and 'sacrament' mutually exclusive? I've not thought about this particularly but I suspect many of us would assume Holy Communion/the Lord's Supper/ the Eucharist/the Mass/the Divine Liturgy/the Breaking of Bread Service is both.
It's a sacrament because in the classic CofE formulation, it is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. It is an ordinance because Jesus said "this do".
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
There's nothing in the dictionary definition of the word "ordinance" that would contradict the idea of a sacrament, but most denominations that make a point of calling Communion and Baptism "ordinances" are specifically rejecting the idea of sacraments. The Anabaptist and Campbell-Stone churches are among those who do so.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Are 'ordinance' and 'sacrament' mutually exclusive? I've not thought about this particularly but I suspect many of us would assume Holy Communion/the Lord's Supper/ the Eucharist/the Mass/the Divine Liturgy/the Breaking of Bread Service is both.
It's a sacrament because in the classic CofE formulation, it is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. It is an ordinance because Jesus said "this do".
The words are not mutually exclusive, at least not necessarily. That said, many who prefer the word "ordinance" or who use it exclusively seem to do so intending it to mean "as opposed to a sacrament." Perhaps another way of putting it is that those who consider the Lord's Supper to be a sacrament might also call it an ordinance, but those who do not consider it to be a sacrament would only consider it an ordinance.
I don't see it as much anymore, but in fairly recent American Presbyterian usage, "ordinance" tended to be used of rites such as confirmation, marriage and ordination that are not considered (by us) to be sacraments.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
ordinance yes...because there are no sacraments in the Bible.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
ordinance yes...because there are no sacraments in the Bible.
In that case I wasn't aware that the scriptures talk of "ordinances" either.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Having argued/discussed Anglican = Catholic or Protestant, and then Catholic as opposed to Christian, we now move on to sacrament and ordinance. Whilst all this may be of interest to those of us who frequent these boards it doesn't seem to me to be of great importance to the general public nor even to the average person who considers him or herself to be some sort of Christian of the Catholic ,Protestant,Anglican,Presbyterian,Methodist or Salvation Army family.
Yes,I remember Scotland over 50 years ago,over 60 years ago when there was a fairly rigid separation
between Catholics and others who were always called Protestants.Not everyone would know the term Presbyterian,though almost everyone would know Church of Scotland or the Kirk.The Scottish Episcopal Church,if known,was usually called the 'English'church.
I was just speaking the other day to a friend from a satellite town of Glasgow who regularly attended the Kirk who had no idea if there was an episcopal church in the town.
I'm writing just now about my impression of most people that I knew as a child in a smallish town on the outskirts of Glasgow,a town which had approx. 50% split between Catholics and Protestants.
My own family was of divided religious allegiance,but I never ever heard any arguments about religion between my mother and father.
Nor indeed were there any arguments amongst the children in the streets where we played with one another.
Personally,and I know this may be unusual I've always laughed or perhaps just smiled at the differences between people of different Christian
traditions.Bizarrely ? Catholics were not allowed to be members of the Bowling Greens in our town,apart from one.But on the other hand I remember once going to a swimming session organised by the Catholic Boys'Guild.A friend with me would have been allowed in,even if he wasn't a member,but when it was discovered he wasn't a Catholic,that was too much and he had to go home.
In the late 50s and 60s I spent a lot of time with relatives on the Austrian and Italian border areas.Most people were 'katholisch' and some were
'evangelisch'.With the encouragement of a Jesuit priest I went occasionally to the 'evangelische Kirche'In Austria these 'protestant' churches styled themselves as HB and AB.HB means Helvetian Confession which I take to be 'Reformed' and AB means Augsburg Confession which I take to be Lutheran.
Since then I have been interested in many different forms of Christianity and I thank the Second Vatican Council for making this an integral part of Catholicism.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
ordinance yes...because there are no sacraments in the Bible.
Unless you have a wildly different Bible to mine, there are no ordinances in the Bible either! Sacrament and ordinance are words used to described thing - those of us who believe in sacraments are quite well aware that the word isn't used in the Bible, I'm not sure why it matters.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Forthview, I would take it as a great kindness if you would put spaces after commas, periods, and other punctuation. It helps us read and respond to your participation. If you're posting from a phone or a ridiculously slow computer I can understand and even sympathize, but it's still hard to read when wordsare jammed uptogether.
Barefoot Friar
Eccles. host
[ 01. May 2015, 21:29: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Wales, I think, still has Calvinist Methodists...
It does: officially now known as the Presbyterian Church of Wales, but in common parlance, especially in Welsh, 'Methodist' here is likely to mean Calvinistic Methodist / Presbyterian rather than Wesleyan
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
To my mind the ordinances are where Jesus actually gave a direction - 'Do this in remembrance...', 'Go therefore...baptising in the name...'
There is nothing in the Bible that describes these two activities as sacraments in the mystical sense in which the catholic churches see them. In fact the only time the word 'sacramentum' is used is the Vulgate's (mis)translation of the the word 'mysterion' which, according to Paul's usage, is actually 'Christ in you the hope of glory.'
The further away from Rome one travels the less likely the church will call baptism and the Lord's Supper, a 'sacrament'.
[ 01. May 2015, 22:42: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army has never been 'Pentecostal' in doctrine.
The other aspect of catholicism that we espouse is the universality of salvation - Christ died for the world. This would be in opposition to the Calvinists who maintain that Christ merely died for the Church.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army has never been 'Pentecostal' in doctrine.
No, I didn't say the SA was Pentecostal in doctrine. My point was basically that if the SA has been influenced by Catholicism in one way, Pentecostalism has been influenced in another.
Regarding later comments, I'm aware of the officially Calvinistic Welsh Methodists, etc. More relevant to the thread is whether Calvinism has ever been significant in the CofE and whether there's much Calvinism in it today. Is Calvinist evangelicalism a major influence in the UK now, especially in the CofE? I wouldn't have thought so, although I'm sure there are hot spots
One reads a lot online about the creeping Arminian influence in both liberal and evangelical Christianity, but Calvinisim doesn't seem to have such an interesting afterlife. Not in the UK, anyway.
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