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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sudden CofE Baptism?
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I've just read a short story set in the 1970s, in which a young schoolgirl, perhaps not quite a teenager, spends the weekend with a friend.
On hearing that she hasn't been baptised, her friend's parents arrange for her to be baptised (or 'christened') that very Sunday at the CofE church they attend in London. She obliges but not very enthusiastically, gets water up her nose and embarrasses herself in front of a rather unfriendly congregation. She decides not to tell her parents about the episode, so clearly there was no attempt to inform them in advance.
The parents take the girls off to the pub for crisps and sweets afterwards, which suggests to me 'working class' and 'non-evangelical', but maybe I'm wrong.
What I'd like to know is whether this scenario reflects the reality of any part of the CofE in the '70s.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I´m willing to be proved wrong, but this seems a very unrealistic scenario. Even if a vicar was prepared to baptise "on demand" with no preparation, I can't imagine one being willing to do this for a child without the express consent of the parents. And certainly not if the baptismal candidate didn't live in the parish.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Do you not? Even with the changes that have developed in understanding of, for example children's capacity to consent to medical treatment? If you are correct, it would surely be rather ironic that it might be much more likely that a 13 year ild girl would be given contraceptives, but less likely that she would be baptised, against her parent's wishes than it was 50 years ago.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
There was a case in the church times last year, where the high court said that a girl wasn’t allowed to be baptised without her father’s permission, until she was 16.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I was baptism as a baby and much later I got myself babtised as 19 when I was at university ! And my children are baptist when they were teenagers at out baptist church.
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London
Flickr fotos
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So evangelicals don't go to pubs and don't eat crisps?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Another of those times when one wishes ken were still around... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 01. June 2015, 13:25: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So evangelicals don't go to pubs and don't eat crisps?
Not in the 70s they didn't - crisp-eating was strictly a domestic activity.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Would evangelical English Anglicans have gone to the pub on a Sunday in the 70s? Almost everyone does now, of course, but I assumed that evangelicals would have been stricter about such things then.
Am I right to suppose that the sudden baptism of older children without preparation and without the permission of parents is allowed in the CofE in extremis? If so, then perhaps various social and cultural factors would influence what counts as urgent circumstances in any given time and place. In the story I read a certain colonialistic paternalism might be part of the equation.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Firstly, it's a story ...
Secondly, you're probably right that pub attendance wasn't that common across the evangelical spectrum in the 1970s - but it wouldn't have been unknown.
I suspect the parish in the novel isn't an evangelical one - because their knee-jerk reaction would have been to get the girl to 'prayer the sinner's prayer' or acknowledge the Lordship of Christ in some verbal way ... rather than immediately setting out to baptise her.
But I'd have to read the book ...
Spontaneous, off-the-cuff baptism certainly doesn't strike me as standard evangelical behaviour - whether in a CofE or non-CofE evangelical setting.
One might encounter such a thing in some of the more 'out there' groups but I wouldn't have expected such a thing in any kind of evangelical Anglican parish - of whatever 'tribe' or 'stripe' of evangelical back in the 1970s.
For me, the pub and crisps wouldn't be the give-away but the soteriology and approach to the sacraments/ordinances ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Would evangelical English Anglicans have gone to the pub on a Sunday in the 70s? Almost everyone does now, of course, but I assumed that evangelicals would have been stricter about such things then.
Yes, I think you're right. Not just C of E Evangelicals, but pretty much ALL Evangelicals would have been fairly reluctant to go to the pub on a Sunday. Of course, it depends when in the 70's we're talking about. My memory is that things were beginning to loosen up a bit by the late 70's.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Am I right to suppose that the sudden baptism of older children without preparation and without the permission of parents is allowed in the CofE in extremis? If so, then perhaps various social and cultural factors would influence what counts as urgent circumstances in any given time and place. In the story I read a certain colonialistic paternalism might be part of the equation.
As far as I know, the only justification for sudden baptism in these kinds of circumstances would be when life of the person being baptised is in grave danger.
I'm not confident enough to say it couldn't happen. But my feeling is that it would have been highly irregular.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes. I think the author didn't actually know what s/he was writing about. But then lots of authors get details wrong: e.g. IIRC Bram Stoker, in Dracula, thought that garlic was grown in hothouses, whereas actually it really needs a period of growing in rather low temperatures.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Firstly, it's a story ...
I read a lot of fiction. My personal and academic interests lean towards exploring writers' engagement with lived experience, even in non-realistic texts. FWIW, this writer claims that these particular stories, some more realistic than others, reveal something of her life as a young person in the 70s, as well as her experiences of being middle aged.
If it turns out that the core event of this particular story is highly unlikely to have happened to anyone in 'real life' the story will still be of interest to me, as there's enough meat throughout the text to make the writer's broader point obvious.
Actually, I might try to get in touch with the writer herself to see where this idea came from, but I thought I'd check here first.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was already an adult in the 70s.
I think the sudden baptism, almost on a whim, of a child 'not quite a teenager' at a church where they were not a regular attender, and without their parents being involved, would have been very unusual.
It would have been less unusual than shipmates think for evangelicals to have gone in a pub then, unless the church was at the forerunner of the Reform end of things. However, they would have been more likely to have gone in one after an evening service than a morning one.
What is actually more doubtfull is the notion that one could take a child of 11-12 in a pub in those days even for a soft drink. That change really happened later than that. Children could be taken into bars and have soft drinks from 14 then, and could sit in pub gardens, but there weren't really children's rooms or anything like that yet.
Licensing hours were also much more limited than they are now. 12-2pm and 7pm-10.30pm on Sundays. Even on weekdays, pubs were shut during the afternoon until well into the 80s.
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
How did she get water up her nose? Was she dunked?
I think baptism by immersion in an Anglican Church would have been very rare in the 1970s, even among evangelicals, who moreover would have worried about her age and doubtless rigorously required a conversion experience on her part.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Doesn't ring true on all sorts of levels.
Mind you back in the 1950's the local Vicar refused to baptise me because my parents didn't go to church. There's nothing new under the sun ....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
How did she get water up her nose? Was she dunked?
No, it doesn't seem to have involved immersion.
[ 02. June 2015, 11:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I can't imagine, then, how she could get any appreciable amount of water up her nose through pouring or sprinkling.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Firstly, it's a story ...
BUT....
Part of a good work of fiction is the ability to make the readers believe in it. Even if you're writing about alien worlds, there has to be a sense of credibility. Making something happen in your story which makes people who might know about such things say "that couldn't have happened!" simply erodes a story's credibility.
It is the same thing when a film purports to show a steam train and my brother-in-law snorts derisively "That engine would never have pulled those carriages on that line!" Or when Mrs Grouch hears dialogue in a film set in the Victorian era which has words and phrases that weren't used until the mid-20th century. Once credibility has been undermined, a story or a film struggles to be taken seriously.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think you're right, especially when it concerns something upon which the whole plot turns. In the end, Bram Stoker thinking that you grow garlic in hothouses, or a TV producer putting a GWR pannier tank on a branch line in the Scottish borders, or even the Hollywood film which showed Richard the Lionheart being married according to the 1662 rite, is merely a matter of detail, however niggling to those of us who spot it. But if you're going to use an event as the centre of your story you need to make it credible.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I can't imagine, then, how she could get any appreciable amount of water up her nose through pouring or sprinkling.
Depends on how you hold your head, I suppose. Or how enthusiastic the baptizer is with the face splashing.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
. . . or a TV producer putting a GWR pannier tank on a branch line in the Scottish borders,
A bit north of the border, but two GWR pannier tanks worked the ex-Highland Railway Dornoch branch from 1956 to 1962.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
. . . or a TV producer putting a GWR pannier tank on a branch line in the Scottish borders,
A bit north of the border, but two GWR pannier tanks worked the ex-Highland Railway Dornoch branch from 1956 to 1962.
Dear God! Why is it no surprise that someone on the Ship would know something like that!?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
But surely it's common knowledge?
Here's a pretty picture to prove it - except it's a model.
Anyway, there isn't a font to be seen!
[ 02. June 2015, 22:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
why is there surprise there is a high rate of comorbidity between being an Organist and being a transport enthusiast.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
There was a case in the church times last year, where the high court said that a girl wasn’t allowed to be baptised without her father’s permission, until she was 16.
Do you have a link for that case? I find it surprising if it was decided just on her being under 16. Also, since anyone can perform a valid baptism it would be difficult to prevent if someone was determined to proceed.
This case from 2012 was determined on the basis of a 10 year old's wishes.
I think the scenario in the story could happen although it would be irresponsible for any church not to ensure the girl was genuinely seeking baptism and properly prepared for it.
[ 03. June 2015, 11:50: Message edited by: justlooking ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
why is there surprise there is a high rate of comorbidity between being an Organist and being a transport enthusiast.
I'm not an organist!!!!!
[ 03. June 2015, 12:33: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
There was a case in the church times last year, where the high court said that a girl wasn’t allowed to be baptised without her father’s permission, until she was 16.
Do you have a link for that case? I find it surprising if it was decided just on her being under 16. Also, since anyone can perform a valid baptism it would be difficult to prevent if someone was determined to proceed.
This case from 2012 was determined on the basis of a 10 year old's wishes.
I think the scenario in the story could happen although it would be irresponsible for any church not to ensure the girl was genuinely seeking baptism and properly prepared for it.
I have no access to back Church times I’m afraid, I picked it up when it was talked about in church recently.
it was when we had a kerfuffle in church when our legal bods said we couldn’t baptise a 9 year old, as their dad couldn’t be found to give permission, we were told from the diocesan registrar that he had to wait until they was 16 to do it without..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
why is there surprise there is a high rate of comorbidity between being an Organist and being a transport enthusiast.
I'm not an organist!!!!!
It was the wife of a minister who told me of this connection and her husband is one of the cases she cites. What was surprising is that the one definite transport enthusiast I knew in the URC was also a church organist.
Jengie
[ 03. June 2015, 20:25: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
There was a case in the church times last year, where the high court said that a girl wasn’t allowed to be baptised without her father’s permission, until she was 16.
Do you have a link for that case? I find it surprising if it was decided just on her being under 16. Also, since anyone can perform a valid baptism it would be difficult to prevent if someone was determined to proceed.
This case from 2012 was determined on the basis of a 10 year old's wishes.
I think the scenario in the story could happen although it would be irresponsible for any church not to ensure the girl was genuinely seeking baptism and properly prepared for it.
I have no access to back Church times I’m afraid, I picked it up when it was talked about in church recently.
it was when we had a kerfuffle in church when our legal bods said we couldn’t baptise a 9 year old, as their dad couldn’t be found to give permission, we were told from the diocesan registrar that he had to wait until they was 16 to do it without..
AFAIK a baptism doesn't need the consent of both parents and if one parent isn't around then the parent who has custody is the one bringing the child for baptism.
This from the Catholic Church covers many of the issues.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
There was a case in the church times last year, where the high court said that a girl wasn’t allowed to be baptised without her father’s permission, until she was 16.
Do you have a link for that case? I find it surprising if it was decided just on her being under 16. Also, since anyone can perform a valid baptism it would be difficult to prevent if someone was determined to proceed.
This case from 2012 was determined on the basis of a 10 year old's wishes.
I think the scenario in the story could happen although it would be irresponsible for any church not to ensure the girl was genuinely seeking baptism and properly prepared for it.
I have no access to back Church times I’m afraid, I picked it up when it was talked about in church recently.
it was when we had a kerfuffle in church when our legal bods said we couldn’t baptise a 9 year old, as their dad couldn’t be found to give permission, we were told from the diocesan registrar that he had to wait until they was 16 to do it without..
AFAIK a baptism doesn't need the consent of both parents and if one parent isn't around then the parent who has custody is the one bringing the child for baptism.
This from the Catholic Church covers many of the issues.
That is not the stance of the legal team in my diocese..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
What they say is that the permission is needed of anybody with parental responsibility, and the church was not allowed to baptise this child who wanted it themselves.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Some things have changed a bit since I was baptized (1966). I was 'done' on a weekday evening by the local Church of Ireland vicar who had married my mum and dad. Just baptism, not as part of a congregational service. When Mum's friend heard I was to be 'done', she asked if Mum would ask the vicar could she bring her recently produced progeny along, too, for a sprinkling, at the same service. To which he replied 'sure'.
No preparation, not even an attendance requirement. I can't even remember if my mum's friend was an Anglican. And yet that seemed pretty normal in that place, for that time.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The Sudden Baptism I assisted at was in our Anglican church, when the bishop was in town for confirmations. One of the confirmands suddenly said, "I haven't been baptized. You think it'll take?" The rector said that no, baptism was a necessary prerequisite. We ran and fetched the silver bowl and a purificator, and the kid was rapidly baptized between the services. I don't think the bishop ever noticed.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The Sudden Baptism I assisted at was in our Anglican church, when the bishop was in town for confirmations. One of the confirmands suddenly said, "I haven't been baptized. You think it'll take?" The rector said that no, baptism was a necessary prerequisite. We ran and fetched the silver bowl and a purificator, and the kid was rapidly baptized between the services. I don't think the bishop ever noticed.
Why hadn't your rector checked this before embarking on confirmation training? One of the first things clergy should ask confirmands is whether they have been baptised. Sounds like a serious oversight on his part.
Even so, there's no reason why the bishop couldn't have baptised him at the confirmation service, or was the rector too embarrassed to admit to his boss he'd been so lax?
[ 08. June 2015, 08:12: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Some things have changed a bit since I was baptized (1966). I was 'done' on a weekday evening by the local Church of Ireland vicar who had married my mum and dad. Just baptism, not as part of a congregational service. When Mum's friend heard I was to be 'done', she asked if Mum would ask the vicar could she bring her recently produced progeny along, too, for a sprinkling, at the same service. To which he replied 'sure'.
No preparation, not even an attendance requirement. I can't even remember if my mum's friend was an Anglican. And yet that seemed pretty normal in that place, for that time.
I have the imprssion that up until the 60s or 70s it was not uncommon for CofE/(Cof I/CinW?) churches to advertise a regular time slot for baptisms, which people could just book.
Am i right in this?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Why hadn't your rector checked this before embarking on confirmation training? One of the first things clergy should ask confirmands is whether they have been baptised. Sounds like a serious oversight on his part.
Even so, there's no reason why the bishop couldn't have baptised him at the confirmation service, or was the rector too embarrassed to admit to his boss he'd been so lax?
We've recently had a couple of baptisms immediately prior to confirmation - but planned. The rector does the baptism, then regional bishop the confirmation. I think that what Anselmina describes was probably a fairly common occurrence in rural parishes until very recently. The rector knew the parents and god-parents, and did not need to prepare them in any formal way.
Going back to the OP: this seems an authorial error, much like the one discussed recently where an author wanted a married royal character to have a morganatic marriage in an Orthodox church, as some kind of permissible procedure to allow a second marriage with no divorce or annulment of the first marriage. Obviously the word appealed to the author but with no understanding what it meant.
[ 08. June 2015, 11:12: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
I think there was some confusion about 'dedication'. The kid was dedicated as an infant, but this is not actually baptism. And it never occurred to the kid (or the parents, who were standing right there) until the very last moment. Do we argue with the clergy? No we do not. The rector decides to baptize right now, the Altar Guild ladies grab the bowl.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Some things have changed a bit since I was baptized (1966). I was 'done' on a weekday evening by the local Church of Ireland vicar who had married my mum and dad. Just baptism, not as part of a congregational service. When Mum's friend heard I was to be 'done', she asked if Mum would ask the vicar could she bring her recently produced progeny along, too, for a sprinkling, at the same service. To which he replied 'sure'.
No preparation, not even an attendance requirement. I can't even remember if my mum's friend was an Anglican. And yet that seemed pretty normal in that place, for that time.
According to the Prayer Book parents have to give a week's notice that they intend to bring their child for baptism. The priest cannot refuse if this is done (save for the purpose of instruction) and the parents can/should complain to the bishop if he delays.
Of course behind this is the fear of the child dying before baptism and the suspicion that the priest himself might have 'Baptist' sympathies.
[ 08. June 2015, 14:16: Message edited by: Corvo ]
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Current Church of England Canon Law requires: quote:
1. Due notice, normally of at least a week, shall be given before a child is brought to the church to be baptized.
2. If the minister shall refuse or unduly delay to baptize any such infant, the parents or guardians may apply to the bishop of the diocese, who shall, after consultation with the minister, give such directions as he thinks fit.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
[QUOTE]O The priest cannot refuse if this is done (save for the purpose of instruction) and the parents can/should complain to the bishop if he delays.
And what will the Bishop do?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
When I was confirmed (1963), the priest preparing us checked if we'd been baptised, and baptised anyone who had not been, the evening before the confirmation.
In those days, baptisms were not done during a main service as is normal now, but separately, often on a Sunday afternoon. My recollection is that the change probably took place somewhere around 1970 and was quite sudden. My children were baptised in a Sunday morning service in the late 70s, and by then, this was widespread and normal. I did though go to an old style separate baptism as late as the early 90s. Those of us there were aware that this was a bit old fashioned and were slightly surprised the parents had managed to persuade the vicar to do this.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Locally the big confirmation services usually include some baptisms, although that service is so long it's better if the churches get their act together in advance as it does reduce the time taken. (That's the main disadvantage of baptising all those who are not already baptised, the length of time added on to an already long service.)
One year a couple of people in the adult confirmation group were baptised as part of the confirmation classes, so with their peers.
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Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Ref: the baptisms I mentioned. Certainly, the vicar I mention would've known my mum, and while I don't know what the period of notice was at that time for a CofI baptism, I'm sure it was well in advance of a week. Quite possibly for the other lady's baby, too. Though certainly brought in on the coat-tails of my own baptism!
I gather from Mum that this particular vicar was really very strong on saying 'yes' to baptizing any child brought to him, whatever the circumstances, and was perhaps known in the area as being like that.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
My children were baptised in a Sunday morning service in the late 70s, and by then, this was widespread and normal. I did though go to an old style separate baptism as late as the early 90s. Those of us there were aware that this was a bit old fashioned and were slightly surprised the parents had managed to persuade the vicar to do this.
In my fairly recent experience, there has been a slight move back towards 'separate' baptisms; not for reasons of theology but logistics (family members travelling long distances unable to make early service time; small regular congregation likely to be swamped by large additional group, and so on.) I've usually tried to arrange these for shortly after the main service so that at least one or two of the regulars might represent the church community into which the newly baptised are welcomed, and also the visitors will see a few signs of life around rather than an empty building. Compromise as ever is the name of the game.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
[QUOTE]O The priest cannot refuse if this is done (save for the purpose of instruction) and the parents can/should complain to the bishop if he delays.
And what will the Bishop do?
Read the response from BroJames immediately above your post
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Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
logistics (family members travelling long distances unable to make early service time; small regular congregation likely to be swamped by large additional group, and so on.) I've usually tried to arrange these for shortly after the main service so that at least one or two of the regulars might represent the church community
We've started to do that too.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Current Church of England Canon Law requires: quote:
1. Due notice, normally of at least a week, shall be given before a child is brought to the church to be baptized.
2. If the minister shall refuse or unduly delay to baptize any such infant, the parents or guardians may apply to the bishop of the diocese, who shall, after consultation with the minister, give such directions as he thinks fit.
If one looks at the whole of the Canon on the subject, it isn't quite as black and white as that. For example, a person clearly can't say, 'I demand the right to have my baby to be baptised but I'm not willing to come to any preparation'.
Also, if you don't live in the parish and aren't on the electoral roll, even if the vicar is willing to baptise your baby, he or she needs the agreement of the vicar of the parish where you do live.
I suspect also, that if you say 'I want my baby baptised the way I want it done, rather than the way the parish normally does it', and you complain to the bishop, the bishop will say, politely or less so, 'Get lost'.
[ 09. June 2015, 16:43: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
You're quite right, Enoch. My response was just focussed on the time scale.
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