Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Keeping warm with total immersion - kids_in_manchester
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hi, we are mark_in_manchester's daughters. We are 7 and 10. We'd like to know what happens after the kind of baptism where you go under water so that you're not cold wet and shivering for the rest of the service? Our dad doesn't know!
Thanks
-------------------- "We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard (so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Japes
Shipmate
# 5358
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Posted
Any full immersion Baptism I've been to there have been towels ready when you get out of the water, and you go and get changed into a dry set of clothes, which you've been told to bring with you.
You might have to sit with wet hair, though.
-------------------- Blog may or may not be of any interest.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
The water will be warm too, unless something goes wrong with the heating. Vapour is usually visible coming from the surface of the water.
It is all warm.
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blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
All this; also, I have observed that churches which baptise by immersion generally have central heating.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Just don't go for a baptism in the local river/canal.
I was involved in one, many years ago, on the Solent. Now that was colder than an ice lolly at the South Pole.
In my experience, churches that do total immersion usually have it all very well organised, with regards to towels, dry clothing etc.
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
If you get baptised in a stream on a Lancashire hillside then you can't help getting a bit cold and shivery, even in summer. My kids had it easier - heated water in a church, and a room to get changed into their dry clothes.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Your pastor will know, if that's the kind of church you go to, and can fill you in. We don't usually do immersion baptisms, but when we do, we ask people to bring dry clothes and we make sure there are towels etc. One thing to ask about (if this is something you're planning to do, not just a curious question!) is what kind of clothes you should wear. Some places provide robes to be baptized in, but since white tends to turn transparent in water, you really don't want to be wearing a Mickey Mouse shirt or something similar--it will show right through.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes - have someone ready to throw a towel over you as soon as you come out of the water, go to another room where you can get changed, and slip back into the service when you're ready.
That usually applies to the Minister, too: best for them to announce a good long hymn and get changed during it.
When we had a baptism some time ago, the young lady concerned left wet footprints on the floor. One person found that very moving, as it spoke to her of pilgrimage.
Oh - said young lady was baptised in COLD water as the heater broke down!
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
Some churches will have robes that you can change into before being baptized.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Indeed - though I haven't come across them for years.
They used to have lead shot sewn into the bottom hem (like curtains) to wait them down so they didn't balloon up and "reveal all"!
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I am joining the dots but I suspect those are technically albs. The white clothing that is worn by the great multitude (see Revelation 7:9-14). This came to be the cloth of those leading worship. It is used in higher traditions for those leading worship but I think in the early church was often used for the newly baptised.
The use of the white robe is therefore a direct link between Higher Traditions and those of a much lower tradition.
Jengie
[footnote: I believe that in some Uniting Church of Australia all those leading worship wear the alb ] [ 11. June 2015, 08:55: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I doubt if our Baptist forebears would have used (or known) the term "alb" - if they had, they would have rejected it as "Popish". IMO the gowns used in British churches tend to be simpler garments anyway.
I also think that the symbolism is taken directly from Revelation rather than from church tradition. Indeed they may well have deliberately abjured the latter.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes, but Church tradition takes it also directly from Revelation, indeed it is pretty hard with this church tradition to separate it from Revelation passage. Were the people dressed in white in Revelation because they represented the baptised who were or were the Baptised dressed in white because of the passage in Revelation?
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't disagree, Jengie. It's just that I think the (?former) use of white robes in Baptist churches comes directly from a reading of Revelation. "Church tradition" is another shoot from the same root, but does not lead to the Baptist practice - inasmuch as we are all unconsciously influenced by what has gone before! [ 11. June 2015, 11:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The white robes were meant to be a symbol of purity - "sins washed away" and all that.
As for w what happens after - the usual practice is for something warm to be put on! It depends where you are baptising though: I have baptised in the sea in summer and it doesnt matter much when you come out as it so's warm. The river is another matter though.
In church the 6 kw heater we have produces water at approx 85 degrees - very comfortable.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I was baptized by immersion. The water was warm, and there was a towel waiting for me (the youth group were responsible for towels). There was then a 'wet path' in the midst of the church (made up of mats) which we walked on to get to the two changing rooms (male and female). We were told to wear informal dark clothes for the baptism. In the changing room were more towels, and my godfather came with me to help me change into a suit I'd brought. Once I returned to the sanctuary, all the newly baptized were given white robes to put on over our clothes.
At other churches, I've seen dark robes for the baptisms, and I've seen people return already wearing their white robes after their post-baptismal drying.
-------------------- Ave Crux, Spes Unica! Preaching blog
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
In California they tend to immersion baptize in hot tubs -- plenty warm, and often with bubbling action. A friend of mine is on the vestry of a church which built themselves a new sanctuary. It has a baptismal pool tucked in behind the altar (where one would ordinarily see the pipes of the organ). It is something like a Roman Bath, very deep and narrow, and you go down the steps to get into it, wade through and then up the steps on the other side. It is always kept filled, so they can dip you at the first hint of conversion. (It is not a standard denomination, but a subsect whose name I cannot recall.)
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: I doubt if our Baptist forebears would have used (or known) the term "alb" - if they had, they would have rejected it as "Popish". IMO the gowns used in British churches tend to be simpler garments anyway.
The last baptism by immmersion that I atended was in a Baptist church and the candidate wore an albe.
Nicely ecumenical.
-------------------- My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/ My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie jon: I am joining the dots but I suspect those are technically albs. The white clothing that is worn by the great multitude (see Revelation 7:9-14). This came to be the cloth of those leading worship. It is used in higher traditions for those leading worship but I think in the early church was often used for the newly baptised.
The use of the white robe is therefore a direct link between Higher Traditions and those of a much lower tradition.
Jengie
[footnote: I believe that in some Uniting Church of Australia all those leading worship wear the alb ]
I thought early tradition was for the immersed to be, as my East Texas grandmother would say, "nekkid as a jay bird".
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
I remember the first immersion baptism I saw (my father was one of the candidates) and the girls wore these white gown things which went SEE THROUGH when wet!!!
When I was baptised the water was cold, the month was February and I was off school with tonsillitis for a week, despite getting changed right away. (That time the ladies' gowns had an under-robe)
-------------------- "...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Brenda Clough: In California they tend to immersion baptize in hot tubs -- plenty warm, and often with bubbling action.
Is definitely outrage.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, you-all could follow the advice of the Didache, and baptize by preference in COLD water.
As for the see-through gowns: that's a mistake no church makes twice. Normally people are asked to wear t-shirts and shorts or something underneath. Which is why I mentioned being careful what you chose. A "little devil" T-shirt wouldn't go over too well when it started showing through.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: quote: Originally posted by Brenda Clough: In California they tend to immersion baptize in hot tubs -- plenty warm, and often with bubbling action.
Is definitely outrage.
I've been attending the wrong churches then. Never a hot tub in sight. Must be a So Cal thing.
My congregation opted for dark blue robes to deal with the "see thru" issue.
-spelling [ 11. June 2015, 16:24: Message edited by: Prester John ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
My brother-in-law was baptized in a hot tub -- he lives near San Francisco. It was in the pastor's back yard. (It may be state law that all houses in CA have a hot tub.) Oh! And another issue we had in our area was a family who insisted on immersion-baptizing a quite young child, an infant. The child did not tolerate the dunk well, got sick, and there were lawsuits. The word went around that young kids could only get sprinkled; dunking was reserved for people above the age of 8.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Prester John: I thought early tradition was for the immersed to be, as my East Texas grandmother would say, "nekkid as a jay bird".
There's rarely such a thing as a monolithic "early Church practice," but many sources attest to: Go into the water naked, come out and be clothed in white (and possibly anointed then and there).
As Jengie points out, the development of embodied rituals and body language metaphors (some of which ended up getting canonized as scripture) is somewhat of a chicken and an egg thing, but there's a clear sense hear of stripping off the old, dying and rising with Christ, and then being clothed with him.
-------------------- Ave Crux, Spes Unica! Preaching blog
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Brenda Clough: My brother-in-law was baptized in a hot tub -- he lives near San Francisco. It was in the pastor's back yard. (It may be state law that all houses in CA have a hot tub.) Oh! And another issue we had in our area was a family who insisted on immersion-baptizing a quite young child, an infant. The child did not tolerate the dunk well, got sick, and there were lawsuits. The word went around that young kids could only get sprinkled; dunking was reserved for people above the age of 8.
And yet the reason why so many old stone fonts in the UK are so large is that the tradition used to be that babies were dunked, not sprinkled.
I would have thought that it wouldn't take much care to ensure that a baby was dunked safely.
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Adam.: As Jengie points out, the development of embodied rituals and body language metaphors (some of which ended up getting canonized as scripture) is somewhat of a chicken and an egg thing, but there's a clear sense hear of stripping off the old, dying and rising with Christ, and then being clothed with him.
And we may be getting a glimpse of the worship surrounding baptism with Ephesians 5:14 quote: Therefore it says, ‘Sleeper, awake! Rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.’
I've long thought that this was an extract from a baptismal hymn. In one church where I was a member many years ago, someone actually wrote a song using a paraphrase of these words - which we sang primarily at baptism services. It was rather awesome to be singing these words as the newly baptised person arose from the waters.
-------------------- Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Dunno, but I was going out with a girl in the late '70s when she decided to "get baptised" in a Pentecostal Baptist church. They provided heater and white robe, towels etc. Unfortunately when wet the robe was very see through. She was wearing skimpy white undies with red hearts all over them.
And, um, no bra.
Great baptism. (Interestingly I believe she has now spent several years on the run, hiding from the Yakuza, after fleecing Japanese business magnates out of $40 million in 2007. Her undies may not be so conspicuous these days.) [ 11. June 2015, 19:50: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
You can run a long time on $40 million.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: In church the 6 kw heater we have produces water at approx 85 degrees - very comfortable.
Centigrade? I hope not!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: As for w what happens after - the usual practice is for something warm to be put on! It depends where you are baptising though: I have baptised in the sea in summer and it doesnt matter much when you come out as it so's warm. The river is another matter though.
I have had to walk 15 minutes from river to church in West Africa after baptising people. No towels were in evidence, but I was nicely dry by the time we arrived. [ 12. June 2015, 07:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zappa: Dunno, but I was going out with a girl in the late '70s when she decided to "get baptised" in a Pentecostal Baptist church. They provided heater and white robe, towels etc. Unfortunately when wet the robe was very see through. She was wearing skimpy white undies with red hearts all over them.
And, um, no bra.
Great baptism. (Interestingly I believe she has now spent several years on the run, hiding from the Yakuza, after fleecing Japanese business magnates out of $40 million in 2007. Her undies may not be so conspicuous these days.)
How different, how very different, from the home life of our own dear Dean.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: In church the 6 kw heater we have produces water at approx 85 degrees - very comfortable.
Centigrade? I hope not!
Nope - we still run here on God's own measure Fahrenheit. None of that European Celsius or Centigrade for us.
Why, they will soon be changing the barleycorns, drachms and pecks!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: Why, they will soon be changing the barleycorns
What - go to metric shoe sizes? Is outrage!
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Something about this raises the prospect of combining full-immersion baptism with the Polar Bear Club: not just a dip in a river but using a hole chopped in the ice.
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
We have a full immersion "baptism font" in our (Anglican) church. We have a heater to get the water up to a comfortable temperature - our vicar is happy to do full i9mmersions, but not in cold water! Mind, Lord P was dunked in an inflatable swimming pool set up in the church grounds, and the people filling it forgot to add the urnful of hot water which we had boiled specially. We only do full immersion when the baptism candidate asks for it, so we wouldn't "dunk" a small child, though it is always offered to adults.
-------------------- "I say - are you a matelot?" "Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here" From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is that an old immersion font that you have? I know that in at least one church in S Wales one was built in the C19 to prevent people having recourse to the Baptists.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
An Anglican church in Hereford used to do baptisms, occasionally, in the river Wye which ran (fairly) close by! The vicar also had a large water tank that he kept in his garage, and he'd wheel it out and somehow set it up in the church chancel if anyone wanted a full immersion baptism. I don't know if the water was hot or cold.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Thanks for all your replies folks. When the girls are up and about tomorrow, I'll get them to have a read through. It was just a curious enquiry on their part, both sprinkled as they were at a young age. That said, it sometimes feels as if we 'go' to as many churches as invite us to things around here, and there seem to be too few Christians to go round; perhaps we might manage to add a baptist shack to our Metho-Angli-Roman tours of ecumenical worship.
-------------------- "We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard (so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Our friend Dave Walker has some guidance for those facing full-immersion Baptism.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: Is that an old immersion font that you have? I know that in at least one church in S Wales one was built in the C19 to prevent people having recourse to the Baptists.
My local CinW church down here in rural Pembrokeshire (the English-speaking part) has a baptistry outside - also originally built in an attempt to halt the recruiting efforts of the two local Baptist congregations.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I was baptised by full immersion in an Anglican church - sadly no old full immersion font, but a paddling/birthing pool (not sure which but it was warm water!).
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Several URCs have proper baptistries. This is how I know that you need to start heating the water very early on (several days before hand in the case of the congregation I knew who had a baptistry).
By the way you can hire baptistries.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I believe St Helen's, Bishopsgate had a full immersion baptistry put in their floor when they carried out the renovations after the Bishopsgate/Baltic Exchange bombs.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: Yes - have someone ready to throw a towel over you as soon as you come out of the water, go to another room where you can get changed, and slip back into the service when you're ready.
That usually applies to the Minister, too: best for them to announce a good long hymn and get changed during it.
When we had a baptism some time ago, the young lady concerned left wet footprints on the floor. One person found that very moving, as it spoke to her of pilgrimage.
Oh - said young lady was baptised in COLD water as the heater broke down!
And Ministers should always remember to bring a spare change of clothes. I know one who forgot to bring a change of trousers and had a very cold, soggy coffee hour until his wife got back with a spare pair. (Not me, btw!)
Tubbs
-------------------- "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Ah, I got into trouble once, but not quite like that ... At the risk of boring you all, let me tell you the story.
I was baptising in a church which had no Minister at the time. After the dunking, I popped into a little room to the side of the platform at the front of the church to get changed. I closed the door and took off my wet clothes.
It was then that I realised the awful truth: my towel was lying, neatly-folded up, on the far side of the door! So what should I do? - put on my dripping clothes, emerge, grab the towel, and then disappear again? I had to be quick as I would soon need to continue leading the service.
Then I thought: there was an upright piano standing outside the door. If I opened the door just a crack, reached out my hand, and quickly grabbed the towel, surely no-one would see me.
It was a risk. But they didn't.
A different story. We were going to have a baptism on the Sunday so, on the Friday afternoon, I went down to the church and started to fill the baptistery. Knowing that it would take something like 90 minutes to fill, I then went off to Sainsbury's to do some shopping.
On the way back, though, the traffic gridlocked (I should have thought it might!) And there was the water, rushing into the baptistery all the while. I had a vision of it overflowing and flooding the church.
But when I finally rushed into the building, it hadn't quite reached the top. Phew! (I then had the fun of trying to pull out the plug and let out just some of the water without falling in. I managed it but had a couple of tense moments!)
[The Paedobaptists (most of them) just don't know the fun we have!] [ 22. June 2015, 15:46: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Rupert Sheldrake made an interesting suggestion:
Since Baptism is about dying and being born-again, perhaps historically it actually involved the person's being held underwater long enough to be near drowning, and thus to have a near-death experience.
Some who have recently been baptized by immersion report that they spent more time submerged than was comfortable.
-------------------- Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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