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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2875: Cathedral Church of St Paul, Detroit, Michigan, USA
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Squee! My church was mystery worshipped! (Not by me; I'm not a Mystery Worshiper, anyway.)
I just wanted to correct the date of the building: it was built between 1908-1911.
Also, I wanted to explain that the lack of coffee hour was due to the rummage sale occupying its usual space, and the desire to have people peruse the rummage sale, which supports our Sunday morning Breakfast Ministry (for the local homeless, but I'm pretty sure anyone can join. There's also a video-based class at the same time).
Normally, there is coffee hour. In the summer, it's "lemonade on the lawn," which is starting up next week, I believe.
I hope any of you who visit Detroit (and of course you will, right? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) will consider dropping by.
I'm happy to answer any questions I can, and I look forward to any discussion this MW might generate - positive or negative. Full disclosure: I'm on the Vestry. Your feedback might get somewhere.
You can visit the cathedral's website at detroitcathedral.org.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Here's the link:
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2015/2875.html
As someone who knows and is an enthusiast for English medieval cathedrals (Chester is the only one I haven't seen) that looks a mighty fine place. It reminds me of the late C20 additions to Bury St Edumunds. Not cutting edge modernism, but a splendid building, dignified but not pompous.
All power to your elbow, churchgeek.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Possibly a silly point, but the MW report doesn't seem to say much (or anything I can find) about the choir..
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Sorry, my bad the "schola cantorum" is the choir. Any more info about this, churchgeek? Might be of interest to someone..
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I am happy to give more information about the choir!
The cathedral choir is actually composed of men, women, girls, and boys. It used to be two separate choirs - men & boys, and women & girls, who would sometimes all sing together, but was joined together a few years ago while I was away in CA for grad school. (I had been a member of the choir of Women & Girls.)
Last summer, before I had rejoined upon my return home from CA, the choir was in residence at Chichester Cathedral (UK), and also sang at Canterbury Cathedral and a couple other cathedrals. I wasn't there; I don't recall the exact places they sang. They were very well-received. The choir also recorded its first CD before I returned; it's a Christmas album. We'll be recording again this fall!
The choir is mostly volunteer, and some of us have little formal musical training outside of this choir. The cathedral has no day school to funnel kids into the choir. A few years ago, we started the Cathedral Choir School of Metropolitan Detroit, which is a fully extra-curricular program. It is affiliated with the Royal School of Church Music in America, and children who participate are also eligible for reduced-cost piano lessons. I think this model means the kids don't get quite as much time in rehearsal/music classes as kids in a traditional cathedral choir school, but they work really hard and put in extra time on Sundays in addition to their - 2? 3? I'm not sure - weeknight rehearsals.
But the kids had already had their last service for the academic year the week before the Mystery Worshiper visited.
The Schola Cantorum, which sang that Sunday, is a group of adults, including all the section leaders from the full choir. It's sort of descended from the former Chamber Singers, who specialized in early music and tended to be more formally trained. There are a couple members of the Schola (and larger choir) who sing with the Detroit Opera company, for example. But there are also members who have just been in choir long enough to feel comfortable singing the repertoire the Schola tackles. (Not that the full choir doesn't tackle challenging music - this past year, for example, we've sung Britten's "Hymn to St. Cecelia" and Finzi's "Lo, the Full Final Sacrifice" [the latter for our spring concert as well as a choral festival in Ontario]. But we spend more rehearsal time on it than Schola needs to.)
I'm in the choir, but not the Schola.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
As someone who knows and is an enthusiast for English medieval cathedrals (Chester is the only one I haven't seen) that looks a mighty fine place.
It is. And it has extra specialness for me as, as I was received into the Anglican Communion by the Bishop of Michigan in Detroit Cathedral in 1986. Part of what got my attention about the Episcopal Church was listening to Sunday broadcasts (occasionally, when I wasn't attending a Sunday morning Mass in my RC parish) from this cathedral over the radio, at the time THE longest-running radio program in the USA, it was claimed. Bruce Brown hosted, in a hushed, well-modulated baritone: "The procession has now entered the chancel of this magnificent edifice, and the choir members are taking their places in the stalls..."
And I turned pages for Jeremy Tarrant at a diocesan convention Eucharist one year, when we were electing the current bishop.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
Woodward Avenue ("piety hill") in Detroit is lined with churches that have seen drastic declines in attendance over the last 30 or so years. Several have closed. A few have changed denominations. I know of none that is thriving.
There are two other small (attendance wise) Episcopal churches quite nearby, and I'm sure that they would close before St. Paul's. Indeed, I would guess that if only two of the whole bunch on Woodward remained, they would be St. Paul's and a merged Central UMC and Metropolan UMC.
In its glory days (1950s-1970s), St. Paul's had three Sunday services, with the principal service comfortably full.
On some Sundays, Michigan's highly popular governor, G. Mennen Williams, served as an usher and led people to open seats.
For a time, in addition to the weekly radio broadcast, the New Year's Eve service was telecast.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
OK, folks who are familiar with my church need to introduce themselves to me...especially if you're still in the area! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously, though, I'm happy to hear such great things from others who know the place. (I think I've heard Woodward called "Piety Hill" before, but it's definitely a throwback from the past! - a weird one, too, given that the Woodward Avenue, like the city, is pretty much completely flat.)
I should point out re: attendance - it was a part of the year where attendance can be quite low, as people have headed away for summer vacations; and Woodward Ave is all torn up, as are some of the freeways nearby. For some people - especially those who live quite a ways away, as some of our congregants do - that's too much hassle on a Sunday morning. I mean no judgment; if the commute's normally 30 minutes or more under good conditions, and you know you're going to have to deal with detours and delays and rough roads, you might decide it's a great time to visit a more local church (or sleep in). They'll be back. Being a cathedral means we draw from a wide geographical area. Some congregants are folks who grew up in the cathedral congregation, and have since moved to the suburbs, but can't bring themselves to leave the cathedral for whatever reason (to our benefit!).
Also, we have an 8:30 service with a dedicated group who attend it. I don't know the usual attendance for that service; I've never been. (I'm not a morning person, and I prefer the choral service.) But it's not an insignificant number.
Still, you'd rather see the place full. We do have a great mission field in Midtown.
Yes, many churches in Detroit are struggling, often due to population shifts - neighborhoods depopulating so that a congregation can no longer support its building, or demographic shifts. Over the latter half of the 20th century, Detroit became majority Black (now over 80% African American), and also enjoys significant Arabic and Latino/a populations, along with other minority groups as well. Its white, including Jewish, population has largely moved to the suburbs, but not completely. In the US, people of different ethnicities often go to churches of different denominations. (I'm proud of the diversity we have at the cathedral - not just ethnic, but economic, gender/gender identity, political, theological, dis/ability, you name it. That's part of what strongly attracted me in the late '90s.) But Detroit's still a pretty religious city, with plenty of thriving faith communities.
So that's more context...
And don't forget, Detroiters are tough and resilient. They keep pronouncing our city dead, but we just won't die. We've been the butt of jokes and recipients of scorn now for several generations. Our city motto proclaims (in part) that we "hope for better*," and we are much more optimistic than you'd think we should be. Add Christian faith to that, and, well, you can't assume anything!
*Speramus meliora - resurget cineribus - "We hope for better [things, days...it gets translated either way] - it will rise from the ashes." This was originally penned by the Catholic, French-speaking priest, Gabriel Richard, after the city burned down in 1805.
[ 19. June 2015, 23:01: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
Hi, Churchgeek.
During my schooling in Ann Arbor many, many years ago, I frequently visited Detroit, including of course St. Paul's, a Ralph Adams Cram masterpiece.
I remain very interested in Detroit and particularly its churches.
Woodward avenue is lined with architecturally interesting churches , but I think St. Paul's is clearly tops.
As for music, I don't think any other "piety hill" churches come close to St. Paul's. St. John's, with its gifted organist and professional choir is a distant second imho.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I had a bit of a memory problem. It's "Piety Row", not "Piety Hill".
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I had a bit of a memory problem. It's "Piety Row", not "Piety Hill".
That's it! That makes more sense.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Amen Alley, I think it's called also.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Amen Alley, I think it's called also.
That one I haven't heard, but I like it!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
I also have a fond memory of St. Paul's, an Easter Sunday many years ago when a friend took a bunch of University of Michigan freshpeople to services at the Cathedral. All of the pomp was fascinating to this soon-to-be ex-Congregationalist, especially the proper singing of "Feste Dies," with men and women taking different verses (God love the 1940 Hymnal). And, our usher was none other than the former Governor of Michigan, G. Mennen "Soapy" Williams. Good stuff, and topped of by a delicious brunch at a probably now-disappeared downtown hotel.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Around 1969, I remember meeting the then organist and choirmaster, Elwyn Davies, at an American Guild of Organists convention. He chatted about his men and boys choir and also of his association with the Royal School of Church Music. He had something to do with the writing of the Chorister Training Scheme. I would never have imagined that it was partly developed by an American!
I think he also knew the O/C of the cathedral in Toronto, Norman Hurrle, who had complained publicly that the choir was down to six boys and he couldn't find more. Davies said that this was not entirely true: he pretended to such desperation in hopes of getting a choir school established.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Around 1969, I remember meeting the then organist and choirmaster, Elwyn Davies, at an American Guild of Organists convention. He chatted about his men and boys choir and also of his association with the Royal School of Church Music. He had something to do with the writing of the Chorister Training Scheme. I would never have imagined that it was partly developed by an American!
I think he also knew the O/C of the cathedral in Toronto, Norman Hurrle, who had complained publicly that the choir was down to six boys and he couldn't find more. Davies said that this was not entirely true: he pretended to such desperation in hopes of getting a choir school established.
I was a member of the cathedral congregation in Toronto at that time and it was true that there were only 6 boys. They struggled mightily to be heard against the 12-18 men. And usually lost the battle. But that didn't seem to bother the choirmaster. It was said in the congregation at the time that Norman set impossibly high bars to membership of the boys choir. It was said to be one of the reasons he was summarily let go from the cathedral.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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