Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Cities and diocese with more than one cathedral (of the same denomination)
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
-------------------- Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
 Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie jon: Leeds does not have a Cathedral because prior to the merger it was part of the Diocese of Leeds and Ripon.
Ripon and Leeds actually, not Leeds and Ripon. Until fairly recently (about 10-15 years ago) it was simply the Diocese of Ripon.
Although Ripon Minster is an ancient church, it's only been a cathedral since 1836 when the diocese was carved out of the diocese of York
-------------------- "May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
Yes, I know all that. But does st Patrick's actually have a cathedra, and if it does whose is it?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: quote: Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop: quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin is the national Cathedral - for the Province, if you like. Christ Church Cathedral is the diocesan Cathedral. St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral serves the RC Archdiocese.
Yes, I know all that. But does st Patrick's actually have a cathedra, and if it does whose is it?
Sorry, I am not the person to answer that.
-------------------- Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Someone like Anselmina or Ronald Binge would know.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
There are two, both identical, opposite each other. The Archbishop of Dublin also has a prebendal stall.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
So a cathedra for each of the Primates (++Armagh and ++Dublin)?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
 Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
Well this thread has proved to be a relief to me: It's not just the nutty Orthodox with cathedrals galore in one place. My own modest metropolis has, at my last count, seven Orthodox cathedrals. How does one spell Scandal?
Now, when is that Great and Holy Council? Have we all got our hotel reservations?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
 Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
There was talk, at one time, of re-joining Truro with Exeter. But not sure how serious that was - it would certainly lead to a lot of tricky journeys given size of see and the relatively rural road structure.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
Posted by Albertus: quote: So a cathedra for each of the Primates (++Armagh and ++Dublin)?
Yep.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chorister: There was talk, at one time, of re-joining Truro with Exeter. But not sure how serious that was - it would certainly lead to a lot of tricky journeys given size of see and the relatively rural road structure.
At least it would mostly be on a contiguous piece of land. Our Bishop has been in office nearly 4 years and hasn't made it to all the inhabited islands yet.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
|
Posted
In the US (Midwest), there is St. Paul's Cathedral in St. Paul, MN, and the Basilica of St. Mary (co-cathedral) in Minneapolis, MN. And in the Diocese of Ft.Wayne-South Bend, the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Ft. Wayne, IN, and the Co-Cathedral of St. Matthew in South Bend, IN.
-------------------- "I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Albertus: So whose cathedra is in that other National Cathedral, St Patrick's, Dublin?
St Patrick's is the National Cathedral of the Church of Ireland, with prebendal stalls for each diocese, and the Dean is Dean and Ordinary. All clear? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
 Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: Well I suppose they're both places where some people are benighted enough to speak French.
That's not funny.
-------------------- NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
 Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
Augustine -- your pm box is full.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
|
Posted
The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bishop on the Chapter of St Patrick's Cathedral, and there is a Cathedra on the south side, opposite the reading desk.
St Anne's Cathedral was built while Down, Dromore and Connor was a single diocese, and when Connor was split off in 1945, it continued to serve for both dioceses. Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by AndyB: The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bishop on the Chapter of St Patrick's Cathedral, and there is a Cathedra on the south side, opposite the reading desk.
St Anne's Cathedral was built while Down, Dromore and Connor was a single diocese, and when Connor was split off in 1945, it continued to serve for both dioceses. Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
I understand that St. Ann's (Anglican) Cathedral is in Belfast and not in Dublin. St. Ann's Church Dublin (also Anglican) is not a cathedral.
-------------------- Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by AndyB: The Archbishop of Dublin is the sole Bisho Thus, Down and Dromore has 2.5 dioceses, although St Anne's is physically in Connor diocese, and its clergy are attached to Connor diocese.
Don't understand 2.5 dioceses. (Query - is "diocese" - pron dio cease - the plural of diocese - pron dio cess?)
I knew Andy was talking about two seperate cities.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Andy can answer for himself but I read 'diocese' as a simple mistake for 'cathedral'- Down, Dromore, and a half share in St Anne's Belfast = 2.5.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
AndyB
Shipmate
# 10186
|
Posted
I'm allowed a wee mistake in my first post in months...
St Anne's Cathedral is in Belfast. St Ann's parish church (without the e) is in Dublin, at least the one in question anyway.
Posts: 149 | From: Belfast | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
|
Posted
In Yorkshire, there are now 3 cathedrals in 1 diocese - none of them where the bishop takes his title.
-------------------- "Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
|
Posted
Due to events in history, the Russian tradition of the Orthodox Church in the UK is represented by three separate groups (all in communion with each other). As the historic London parish has morphed over the years and the various members of the original community have aligned themselves with the different groups, three parishes now exist in London, each dedicated to the Dormition (Assumption) of the Most Holy Mother of God.
Two of these are cathedrals.
- Chiswick
- Knightbridge
- Holborn
-------------------- If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
 Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Vaticanchic: In Yorkshire, there are now 3 cathedrals in 1 diocese - none of them where the bishop takes his title.
As several people have already pointed out on this thread
-------------------- "May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
When I asked a priest of the Greek Orthodox church in London why they had so many cathedrals, he explained that any bishop in the diocese had to have a cathedral. I may have misunderstood that. But certainly there are a number of Greek Orthodox churches in London which are cathedrals as well as the main one in Bayswater.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
VerilyVerily
Apprentice
# 18435
|
Posted
Likewise the Diocese of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island has two, one in Halifax and one in Charlottetown.
Most people here forget that there's two since the one in Halifax is seen as *the* Cathedral.
The histories are complicated, but basically a former bishop who was influenced by the Tractarians wanted to establish a cathedral on PEI and went to St. Paul's, the already well established Anglican church there. St. Paul's, where a candle had never graced the altar, blocked the bishop at the door and told him and his Tractarianism to take a hike.
Not long after he went down into the poor neighbourhood where St. Peter's stood as a chapel of ease and made it the Cathedral. St. Peter's remains an "anglo-Catholic"/Tractarian church, using the Canadian BCP, Prayer Book Lectionary, and high liturgy.
http://www.stpeter.org/cathedra.html
http://www.cathedralchurchofallsaints.com/
Posts: 1 | From: Maritimes | Registered: Jul 2015
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain has seven cathedrals listed on their website. There is one in Birmingham and six in London.
My understanding is that it is all one diocese - I can't believe they have separate dioceses for Camden Town and Kentish Town. I was told once by a Greek priest (cradle Orthodox to English convert parents) that they are the churches of assistant bishops in the diocese.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
But the oddity is that the website only mentions four assistant bishops, one of whom is the Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware).
And there's six cathedrals.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
The Archdioces of Thyateira also has seventh cathedral in Glasgow.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
decampagne
Shipmate
# 17012
|
Posted
As well as the RC cathedrals at Westminster and Southwark, there is also a Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral, just off Oxford Street.
It's not uncommon in countries in which RC dioceses have been merged over the years (or centuries), for each of the former constituent dioceses to retain their own (co-)cathedrals. Italy has countless examples of this.
A different case, but also in Italy is Brescia, where the "Old", Romanesque, Winter Co-Cathedral sits immediately next to the "New" Baroque, Summer Cathedral"
Posts: 86 | From: Oxfordshire | Registered: Mar 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
|
Posted
There are two (understated and modestly-sized) Anglican Cathedrals in Birmingham: St Philip's and St Paul's
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by OddJob: There are two (understated and modestly-sized) Anglican Cathedrals in Birmingham: St Philip's and St Paul's
OddJob, do I understand you correctly and are you saying what you mean to say?
In Birmingham West Midlands, the Anglican Cathedral is St. Philip's. I understand that there is a St. Paul's Church, which is not a cathedral. The RC Cathedral there, is St. Chad's.
-------------------- Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
|
Posted
You're correct, EFF. I've just googled and realised that 'Cathedral' is a grandiose local term awarded to St. Paul's.
Posts: 97 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
Nothing "grandiose" involved. A cathedral is the church where the bishop has his cathedra, and is the mother church for the diocese.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
There is, of course, the occasional practice of non-episcopal churches having cathedrals to emphasize their importance- Toronto's former Queensway Cathedral which has become Church on the Queensway is an example. Not to mention the Cathedral of Chocolate (no longer in business, sadly) or the Cathedral of Learning, which appears to be an administrative building at the University of Pennsylvania at Oakland.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
And of course in Scotland there is 'Highland cathedral' for no particular diocese and no particular denomination. It is a piece of very popular Scottish type music written by two Berliners (who certainly weren't doughnuts ).
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Forthview: And of course in Scotland there is 'Highland cathedral' for no particular diocese and no particular denomination. It is a piece of very popular Scottish type music written by two Berliners (who certainly weren't doughnuts ).
And this same 'Highland Cathedral' played by organ and bagpipes has become a nearly ubiquitous feature (curse) at weddings in the SE states of the US. (IMNSHO)
-------------------- You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
|
Posted
The Episcopal Diocese of Nebraska (USA) has Trinity Cathedral in downtown Omaha, which I recall to be the oldest Anglican congregation in that state. But there is also St. Mark's Pro-Cathedral, Hastings, a Ralph Adams Cram building that was formerly the mother church of the Missionary District of Western Nebraska from 1918 until 1946 when that district was absorbed into the Diocese of Nebraska.
As a contrast, St. Paul's in Peoria, Illinois, was historically the cathedral of the Diocese of Quincy from 1962 onward, but when Quincy was resorbed into the Diocese of Chicago (the successor entity to the old Diocese of Illinois from whence it came) in 2003 following large realignment losses, the sole cathedral remained St. James, Chicago, with St. Paul's reverting to parochial status.
Wikipedia also reports that Iowa (TEC) has two cathedrals - St. Paul, Des Moines, being the liturgical cathedral without compromising the status of the more remote Trinity, Dubuque - much as Brooklyn (RC) has the Co-Cathedral of St. Joseph, which has a greater seating capacity than the Cathedral Basilica of St. James (both of which are in Brooklyn, though the diocese also includes Queens).
Otherwise there are cities with cathedrals for more than one jurisdiction of the same denomination, such as the two Roman Catholic cathedrals of Chicago, Holy Name (Latin Rite) and St. Nicholas (Ukrainian Catholic). In the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston you have St. Mary's in Galveston, Sacred Heart Co-Cathedral in Houston, *and* the principal church of the Ordinariate of the Chair of Peter, Our Lady of Walsingham also in Houston.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Doing a bit of church crawling on Romney Marsh, we visited Ivychurch yesterday.
Given Ivychurch is one pub and ten house I was mighty impressed that the church was loved cared for, welcoming and used, despite being only one of some six churches under one vicar. (I met her in the High Street of New Romney and congratulated her warmly).
http://www.kentchurches.info/%5Cimages%5CIvychurch.JPG
The point here is the notice board said "Ivychurch, the Cathedral of Romney Marsh". It is in fact in the diocese of Canterbury.
It is just an example of using "cathedral" to mean "large church". [ 22. August 2015, 09:03: Message edited by: venbede ]
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglicano
Shipmate
# 18476
|
Posted
quote: the RCs reckon Dublin has three cathedrals. One pro, and two amateurs.
And of course, amateurs do things for love, professionals for money.
Posts: 61 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Sep 2015
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
There is certainly one amateur anyway, seeing that my information came first hand from a canon of said national disgrace! Apologies for the misinformation.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Spike: London has two Anglican cathedrals on opposite sides of the river - St Paul's and Southwark
Well, I hate to play stickler here, however, St. Paul's is in the City of London proper whereas Southwark -- a much newer cathedral -- is outside the boundaries of the city proper and historically was part of the County of Surrey. As such, they're in different political jurisdictions.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by venbede: What is the difference between a pro and a co?
I thought a pro cathedral is one that you have until you get a proper one.
The Anglican diocese of Europe has a three cathedrals - the main one at Brussels and two pro cathedrals at Valetta and Gibraltar, although there's no intention to replace them.
The RC diocese of Malta has two joint cathedrals, ie at Valetta and one at the old town in the middle of the island. They are both co cathedrals.
Roman Catholic Diocese of Marquette (aka Michigan's Upper Peninsula) has its cathedral in Marquette while Sault Sainte Marie--one of the oldest cities in the United States with one of the oldest Roman Catholic parishes in the country--is the pro-cathedral.
Interestingly, the other Sault Sainte Marie--on the Canadian side of the Saint Mary's River--also has a Roman Catholic cathedral as well as an Anglican cathedral.
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
I have an idea that at one time St Mary Overie (now Southwark Cathedral) was in the City of London ward of Bridge Without- which still continued in theory to exist, in a sense, until 1978, long after the church had become a Cathedral. So.... [ 08. January 2016, 21:50: Message edited by: Albertus ]
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
Meet and Right So to Do posts: quote: Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
The Diocese of Northern Michigan never really got over the 2009 denial of consents to the election of Kevin Forrester (lots of stuff about his Zen practices and baptismal theology available on the internet for the curious) and was without a bishop for four years. A call informed me that there appears to be no real relation between the Diocese of Algoma and that of N Michigan-- this might have been a useful case for support at a difficult time, and even now, given the Upper Peninsula's remoteness. There are very few cross-border links between the two churches-- I know that in the early 1970s, there was some talk about a cross-border diocese in the Saint Lawrence River area, with bits of Albany, Ottawa, and Ontario, but nobody took it seriously.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
John Holding
 Coffee and Cognac
# 158
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams.
This is a matter for Purgatory, I think, rather than Ecclesiantics, but why do you regard a dearth of "classically trained clergy" as an indication that the diocese is "basically dead"? Lots of dioceses replete with classically trained clergy have seemed dead to me over the last 50 or so years I have been considering such things. And in a couple of places in Canada -- The Arctic, parts of the dioceses in BC, and northern Ontario -- where the church is anything but dead, "classically trained clergy" are so rare as to be irrelevant.
I'd also wonder -- but again this is not a matter for Eccles -- why you think so little of ministry support groups -- and why you refer to them as "so-called"?
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by John Holding: quote: Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do:
Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams.
This is a matter for Purgatory, I think, rather than Ecclesiantics, but why do you regard a dearth of "classically trained clergy" as an indication that the diocese is "basically dead"? Lots of dioceses replete with classically trained clergy have seemed dead to me over the last 50 or so years I have been considering such things. And in a couple of places in Canada -- The Arctic, parts of the dioceses in BC, and northern Ontario -- where the church is anything but dead, "classically trained clergy" are so rare as to be irrelevant.
I'd also wonder -- but again this is not a matter for Eccles -- why you think so little of ministry support groups -- and why you refer to them as "so-called"?
John
Because this diocese has been dying off since the 1920s and 1930s, when industry and population left the Upper Peninsula. They have some of the worst attendance, confirmation and baptism statistics in the entire Episcopal Church, too.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut: Meet and Right So to Do posts: quote: Perhaps most bizarre about this is the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan, which is based in Marquette but lacks a cathedral, is basically dead with no classically trained clergy. Almost all of the parishes have clergy who were ordained locally as part of so-called ministry support teams. One would think they would reach an agreement with the Canadian Anglicans in the other Sault Sainte Marie, but for whatever reason they have almost no relationship whatsoever. It's really, really, really odd.
The Diocese of Northern Michigan never really got over the 2009 denial of consents to the election of Kevin Forrester (lots of stuff about his Zen practices and baptismal theology available on the internet for the curious) and was without a bishop for four years. A call informed me that there appears to be no real relation between the Diocese of Algoma and that of N Michigan-- this might have been a useful case for support at a difficult time, and even now, given the Upper Peninsula's remoteness. There are very few cross-border links between the two churches-- I know that in the early 1970s, there was some talk about a cross-border diocese in the Saint Lawrence River area, with bits of Albany, Ottawa, and Ontario, but nobody took it seriously.
Definitely a lot there to discussion--probably in another thread on another board. But, yeah. Even the diocese's own history concedes it's been dying for a long time. Apparently, there was an effort to split it into three--parts going to Minnesota, parts to Wisconsin and parts to Algoma in Canada back in the 1930s but it never went there.
I get the impression this is a left John Shelby Spong-inspired diocese whereas Algoma is probably significantly more conservative.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Meet and Right So to Do: ... I get the impression this is a left John Shelby Spong-inspired diocese ...
Might that also have something to do with why it is dying? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
This gay man thinks of Bishop Spong as a patronising menace. I remember going to some talk by him in London where he was hailed as a liberator in which he said "Ten years ago I didn't know any gay men" and I thought why was I listening to him, when he needed to listen to me?
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|