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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Customary
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
My copy of the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham is on the way... This is the volume produced in 2012 by Andrew Burnham & Aidan Nicols as an option for the UK Ordinariate. (If this is a dead horse, please do send to the place prepared for it.)
What's it like to use? It looks like a bigger & more Romanised version of The English Office. Is it really intended to be a daily office book - I doubt it's used as such by Fr B - or is it primarily a desk resource?
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Not a Dead Horse at all - but I'm sure many of us would like to know what exactly it is!
I'm assuming it is a Prayer Book modeled along the Roman Offices... but if so, how does it differ?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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TonyK
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# 35
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Posted
The page on Amazon about the book is informative - especially the reviews.
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Yours aye ... TonyK
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
Yes, it's the office authorised for the Ordinariate, as an alternative to the existing Liturgy of the Hours, based largely on the framework of the 1549 Prayer Book and containing Coverdale's Psalter to be used in sequence, as in the Prayer Books. This, if nothing else, is a great achievement. It also contains Cranmer's Collects - paradoxically, often rewritten by him to reflect Reformed theology - but never mind.
It seems to differ from The English Office in 2 major ways. It contains a large number of post-Biblical readings for the office from the English Catholic traditions, both pre and post Reformation. It also contains Lectionaries which appears to have the aim of providing 3 more possible readings for the daily office, in order to follow the Anglican pattern of 2 and 2.
It's this marrying of the Anglican and RC lectionary systems which looks tricky. In the RC case, the daily office has only one reading which follows a continuous cycle - the other day hours have short readings, all repeated every 4 weeks or more. Unlike the Anglican system, the rest of the Scriptures are read at the daily/weekly mass. In the Anglican system, the mass readings are always extra - you will get virtually all the Scriptures just by using the office. So, with the Customary, unless you're daily in church, it looks like you're going to need the Weekday Missal as well as a Bible with this volume. Otherwise you're only going to get the Gospels at Sunday mass.
I'm wondering really about anyone's experience using this regularly as a daily office, and not just as the main resource for ex-Anglican Sunday evensong.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The page on Amazon about the book is informative - especially the reviews.
Is it a bad thing that I got a chuckle out of the two star review and the response to it?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Just out of interest, how many Ordinariate groups/congregations are there (in the UK) which actually have Evensong on Sundays?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
The page on Amazon about the book is informative - especially the reviews.
Is it a bad thing that I got a chuckle out of the two star review and the response to it?
Ooh yes. The second response does seem to indicate - as an extra complication - that one can add in the Antiphons from the LOTH if one wishes. I think that would make things remarkably complicated and the juggling of books wouldn't bear thinking about!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
It's funny! I don't how many groups there are with regular evensong.
It's quite a large, spaced-out volume. A lot of it is the post-Biblical readings and musical settings - all of which are optional - wondering if a separate volume for these might make for a more portable "core" book.
Regarding the Lectionary, I can't see that other forms are not allowed, saving that those in priestly orders must use the Divine Office reading at some stage each day.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Just out of interest, how many Ordinariate groups/congregations are there (in the UK) which actually have Evensong on Sundays?
Ian J.
Those who follow it weith benediction.
As regards the daily offices, I am not sure that there is much need for Coverdale and the old prayer book - those priests who I know, who joined the ordinariate, all used the Roman Breviary in modern language before they 'went over'.
[ 17. July 2015, 15:40: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, just so. If you've joined the RCC via the Ordinariate, why not simply use the RCC offices? If you still have a hankering after the 1662 BCP Office, is there anything within it which could not be said or sung, with a clear conscience, by de facto members of the RCC, even as a prelude to Benediction?
Sound to me like re-inventing the wheel .....but then, I have to confess, I really can't see the point of the Ordinariate, at least within the UK.
I'll get me coat.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Those who follow it with benediction.
As regards the daily offices, I am not sure that there is much need for Coverdale and the old prayer book - those priests who I know, who joined the ordinariate, all used the Roman Breviary in modern language before they 'went over'.
That's actually quite interesting. If true, it might be a warning sign that a person is being tempted to jump ship. Apart from cathedrals which for musical reasons stick to daily 1662 for the sung offices, it's my impression that virtually all clergy, even Anglo-Catholic ones, now use Common Worship Daily Prayer both individually and for shared said offices.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Not necessarily quite so - our P-in-C introduced daily Morning Prayer following the Franciscan Office (using the C of E lectionary) simply because he was at that time in the process of becoming a member of the TSSF. That is no longer the case, but those of us (a small handful only, alas) who join him for MP are now used to using this form, which, personally, I rather like. I gather that the differences from the CW Office are quite minor, in any case!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
In the early 90s my then vicar was using the RC Daily Office, and he went on to be a founder of the (Aff Cath) SCP, altho' he was at that time in SSC. I don't know what he uses now: probably CW, although of course AIUI that is closely based on Celebrating Common Prayer which in turn is based on the Daily Office SSF; and so, I imagine, would be much closer to the RC Daily Office than the old ASB MP/EP would have been.
[ 17. July 2015, 16:34: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
Some might argue that The Customary "incidentally" recognises the 1549 office (which can be followed using 1662) as valid forms of lauds & vespers. And the BCP is much handier...
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
those priests who I know, who joined the ordinariate, all used the Roman Breviary in modern language before they 'went over'.
Acting illegally, then
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
My instinct would be to agree with you but I don't know whether there is any particular form legally prescribed for a cleric's private devotions. Nor do I know what force the requirement to say morning and evening prayer daily, in the parish church, has. Perhaps some other shipmates would know.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
those priests who I know, who joined the ordinariate, all used the Roman Breviary in modern language before they 'went over'.
Acting illegally, then
Not at all. The RC daily office fulfils the rubrics for a 'Service of the Word' according to Common Worship. Common Worship: Daily Prayer is merely another form of the same with quasi-official blessing, and the ungeeky ordinary Christian would notice very little difference.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
My instinct would be to agree with you but I don't know whether there is any particular form legally prescribed for a cleric's private devotions. Nor do I know what force the requirement to say morning and evening prayer daily, in the parish church, has. Perhaps some other shipmates would know.
B 11 Of Morning and Evening Prayer in parish churches
1. Morning and Evening Prayer shall be said or sung in every parish church at least on all Sundays and other principal Feast Days, and also on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Each service shall be said or sung distinctly, reverently, and in an audible voice. Readers, such other lay persons as may be authorized by the bishop of the diocese, or some other suitable lay person, may, at the invitation of the minister of the parish or, where the cure is vacant or the minister is incapacitated, at the invitation of the churchwardens say or sing Morning and Evening Prayer (save for the Absolution).
2. On all other days the minister of the parish, together with other ministers licensed to serve in the parish, shall make such provision for Morning and Evening Prayer to be said or sung either in the parish church or, after consultation with the parochial church council, elsewhere as may best serve to sustain the corporate spiritual life of the parish and the pattern of life enjoined upon ministers by Canon C 26. Public notice shall be given in the parish, by tolling the bell or other appropriate means, of the time and place where the prayers are to be said or sung.
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Vaticanchic
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# 13869
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Posted
Indeed - & these obligations may be fulfilled using the Breviary, as pointed out above under the CW allowances. RC clergy in priestly orders must say the daily office in full, but the place is not specified.
I'm having trouble seeing The Customary as an improvement on The English Office. There are a number of issues, which could disappear in future revisions, but the main one is the size and scope of the lectionary - the most significant difference between Anglican & RC daily worship.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
My instinct would be to agree with you but I don't know whether there is any particular form legally prescribed for a cleric's private devotions. Nor do I know what force the requirement to say morning and evening prayer daily, in the parish church, has. Perhaps some other shipmates would know.
General Rubrics for the 1959/62 Canadian BCP (which continues to be the canonical standard):
All Priests and Deacons, unless prevented by sickness or other urgent cause, are to say the Morning and Evening Prayer either privately, or in the Church. In the latter case it is desirable that the bell should be rung, in order that the people may come to take part in the Service, or at lest may lift up their hearts to God in the midst of their occupations.
I was told that the option of saying offices privately came from the reality that many parishes were multi-point and that winter weather and distance made impossible to insist that the offices be said in church.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, just so. If you've joined the RCC via the Ordinariate, why not simply use the RCC offices? If you still have a hankering after the 1662 BCP Office, is there anything within it which could not be said or sung, with a clear conscience, by de facto members of the RCC, even as a prelude to Benediction?
Sound to me like re-inventing the wheel .....but then, I have to confess, I really can't see the point of the Ordinariate, at least within the UK.
I'll get me coat.......
Ian J.
I think your last point answers your first in a way. The ordinariates are a pastoral response to former Anglicans who desire to bring elements of their liturgy and piety with them into full communion with Rome. So naturally its Daily Office would resemble the prayer book office just as its liturgy of the Mass preserves features of the BCP/English Missal.
To turn it around, if one does not have such a hankering, why hold out for the ordinariate instead of just joining up via the regular channels? And that, as you allude to, is the question I have about the English ordinariate. AIUI (second-hand, of course, so correct me if I'm wrong) many of the OLW parishes do not in fact use their own liturgy at all, but stick with the same ordinary form many of them used while still in the C of E.
[ 21. July 2015, 16:11: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
RC vernacular liturgy is very much in its infancy, unlike the historic Anglican ones, and the English translations are generally not very good - they are also consequently in a state of revision far from complete.
No, there's no need for them to use special forms. I think being part of the Ordinariate has attractions apart from linguistics. The calendar, for one, allows some escape from the standard - rammed as it is with Italian & Irish saints. Further exodus from the CofE is not unlikely - establishing a "little England" in Rome might help.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
What about- and if this is a tangent don't pursue it- not being under the jurisdiction of RC diocesan bishops- who do AIUI actually expect to be obeyed. (If, by some freak chance, an RC PP decided that he'd rather use CW or the BCP in his church, can you imagine an RC diocesan tolerating that for a moment?)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As matters of curiosity, can an ordinary non-Ordinariate RC attend and receive at an Ordinariate Mass? And if short of someone to celebrate, can an Ordinariate parish ask an ordinary RC priest to celebrate using the Odinariate form of Mass, or if so, does he have to use the standard form of Mass?
And could a non Ordinariate priest use the Ordinariate offices in stead of the ones he'd more usually use? And could a non-Ordinariate lay person use them for their regular practice of prayer.
Finally, how different is the RC full 365 day lectionary from the one we have?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I'm afraid I only know the answer to some of your questions:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As matters of curiosity, can an ordinary non-Ordinariate RC attend and receive at an Ordinariate Mass?
Yes.
quote:
And if short of someone to celebrate, can an Ordinariate parish ask an ordinary RC priest to celebrate using the Odinariate form of Mass, or if so, does he have to use the standard form of Mass?
I'm pretty sure an ordinary Latin Rite priest would need some kind of permission from someone to celebrate a Use other than his own. If I were asked, I'd find out whose permission I'd need (or, in the asking, be told I didn't need it).
quote:
And could a non Ordinariate priest use the Ordinariate offices in stead of the ones he'd more usually use?
Any port in a storm, if he doesn't have access to his own books. I don't think it would be proper otherwise, though they could certainly be used as a supplement.
quote:
And could a non-Ordinariate lay person use them for their regular practice of prayer.
Certainly.
quote:
Finally, how different is the RC full 365 day lectionary from the one we have?
There's no such thing. Our Daily Mass lectionary is a 1-yr lectionary for the Gospel and during the seasons, and a 2-yr lectionary for the first reading in Ordinary Time. The Office of Readings is a one-year cycle (with an optional second cycle), again arranged by liturgical year.
Felix Just has a very helpful website giving tables of these lectionaries. Here are the Mass ones, and here for the Office. His tables are useful for getting a sense of the structure, which really is quite beautiful in my opinion.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Finally, how different is the RC full 365 day lectionary from the one we have?
There's no such thing. Our Daily Mass lectionary is a 1-yr lectionary for the Gospel and during the seasons, and a 2-yr lectionary for the first reading in Ordinary Time. The Office of Readings is a one-year cycle (with an optional second cycle), again arranged by liturgical year.
Felix Just has a very helpful website giving tables of these lectionaries. Here are the Mass ones, and here for the Office. His tables are useful for getting a sense of the structure, which really is quite beautiful in my opinion.
I believe that the CW Daily Eucharistic Lectionary is only very loosely adapted from the RCC Daily Mass Lectionary. (I think even less adaptation than with RCL for Sundays)
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I saw a copy of the C of E daily mass lectionary. As I remember from the preface the two main differences were
A When there was a reading from the Deutero canonical books, there was an alternative from the Hebrew Scriptures - not a distinction that bothered Thomas Cranmer.
B On two days in two years in place of the psalm there was a canticle that was not used as a canticle in Anglican worship so a psalm has been substituted. The canticle in question was from Deuteronomy, which is included as a potential canticle in Daily Prayer.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Thank you for your comments. I have leant something.
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
The mass cycles are integral to the overall lectionary in the RC system, of course - but in the Anglican they're additional. And so, without this table in The Customary, you're going to need even more gear than just a Bible on your travels.
Use of the Ordinariate liturgies beyond the jurisdiction would be valid but unlawful, as it's not just a different translation of the current Latin standard, it's an older form of the office altogether.
I've also discovered The Customary does not include optional memoria collects from the General Calendar - so you'd have missed Margaret of Antioch's proper recently.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Oops & there's more - nothing for the offices during the paschal triduum which must be said if you don't attend the public liturgies.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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