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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW2897 Bethany Evangelical Church
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The service described by the reviewer sounds exactly typical of the "Open Brethren", except for the seating arrangement; worshippers usually sit in a circle or square with the Communion elements in the middle. Even the use of "Hymns of Light and Love" (in tiny print!) is typical - in fact that took me straight back to services I used to attend in the early 70s.
It's interesting that the church has a Family Service later in the morning. This reflects a trend in Brethren churches, which used to have the "Breaking of Bread" in the morning and a "Gospel Service" at night. Many churches wanted a more "accessible" service in the morning, but without losing the "Breaking of Bread" which is really the glory of their tradition.
However the two services are, I suspect, gradually being conflated into one in many places such as this chapel which I used to know well and held the same pattern as Bethany. I suspect this is a natural process as older worshippers die - can others verify if this is happening elsewhere?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
There is a Brethren place opposite my house which still advertises morning Breaking of Bread and evening Gospel services - but how would one tell whether it was an "Open" Brethren or which other congregations it was associated with?
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arse
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Link to the report is here...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a Brethren place opposite my house which still advertises morning Breaking of Bread and evening Gospel services - but how would one tell whether it was an "Open" Brethren or which other congregations it was associated with?
In my experience the "Closed" or "Exclusive" Brethren only display the times of their "Gospel services", not the "Breaking of Bread". And often they will append something like "D.V." or "God willing" to the announced times.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a Brethren place opposite my house which still advertises morning Breaking of Bread and evening Gospel services - but how would one tell whether it was an "Open" Brethren or which other congregations it was associated with?
You could possibly try turning up and seeing if they let you in!
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a Brethren place opposite my house which still advertises morning Breaking of Bread and evening Gospel services - but how would one tell whether it was an "Open" Brethren or which other congregations it was associated with?
In my experience the "Closed" or "Exclusive" Brethren only display the times of their "Gospel services", not the "Breaking of Bread". And often they will append something like "D.V." or "God willing" to the announced times.
There's a Taylorite congregation in Coventry and they don't have any services advertised - only a contact number. Wiki says this is standard for the very strict Exclusive Brethren.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
In my experience the "Open Brethren" fellowships have modernised to considerably varying degrees. I grew up in what was regarded as an Open Brethren church but if it has remained as it was then it would now be regarded as much "tighter" than others. Some churches with a brethren heritage would probably be indistinguishable from a non-denominational evangelical church.
Two things usually stand out as indicators of an open brethren church:
1. Plural leadership. The church will probably be led by a group of Elders rather than a single minister (even if one of those a Elders is employed as a minister/pastor).
2. Open communion. The unstructured "open worship" style communion service as described in the MW report. Churches still identifying as Open Brethren will retain this format. Churches with brethren heritage may have kept the service going as, say, an early morning or evening service that mostly only the old faithful attend. The open worship style is so alien to most Christians these days it can be hard to maintain - especially it doesn't suit children which is an issue if you have a thriving church with many families.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
2. Open communion. The unstructured "open worship" style communion service as described in the MW report. Churches still identifying as Open Brethren will retain this format.
I'm unfamiliar with this tradition so bear with me. What does "open worship" mean in this context? That anyone can take communion? That there is no presidential minister and members take part as the Spirit moves them?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Very much so, indeed. Although one must remember that, even in so-called "open worship", unwritten liturgies and expectations tend to develop: that's human nature. (The same is true in charismatic/Pentecostal churches and probably in "Fresh Expressions", too).
Also don't forget that there are elected - and respected - elders in each congregation, so it's not total anarchy; indeed, that would be frowned on. And there is most definitely no "priestly caste" in Brethrenism - anyone (or, at least, any male "in good standing") may break the bread and pour the wine, asking God's blessing on them.
This is felt to be a return to New Testament simplicity, and a visible expression of the "priesthood of all believers". In practice, just as in Quakerism, folk who attend soon get to know "how things are done" and fit in with it.
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
Having grown up in the Open Brethren myself, I would point out that the elders are not always elected. We never had elections. Instead they were appointed by the existing elders (who collectively in my congregation were simply known as 'the Oversight')
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There is a Brethren place opposite my house which still advertises morning Breaking of Bread and evening Gospel services - but how would one tell whether it was an "Open" Brethren or which other congregations it was associated with?
You could possibly try turning up and seeing if they let you in!
I once turned up, out of curiosity, at a supposedly public gospel meeting advertised by a Brethren splinter group known as Needed Truth, and had to explain myself at the door before they would let me in!
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Having grown up in the Open Brethren myself, I would point out that the elders are not always elected. We never had elections. Instead they were appointed by the existing elders (who collectively in my congregation were simply known as 'the Oversight')
The system I am familiar with is one in which the existing eldership appoints new elders, but the congregation expresses its agreement or disagreement by means of a secret ballot.
If the congregation's opinion varied from the eldership's, then the decision would be rethought, but I have never known this to happen, mainly because a wise oversight will always gauge the congregation's attitude thoroughly beforehand.
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
Well, this sounds very much like Culver Grove, Stanmore, Middlesex (now Culver Evangelical) that I grew up in. I still have my baptismal Hymns of Light and Love.
The one big difference is the open communion. It was expected that new visiting brethren would have letters of introduction from their elders.
I left at 16 and thought that, despite some of the things I loved (I conduct a very similar Lord's Supper in our house church), the Brethren would always be too narrow for me. (Interestingly, the most open person was a lecturer (and contributor to the New Bible Dictionary) at the London Bible College) This assembly does sound like one I could at least visit.
Thank you for the report. It does gladden my heart.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Having grown up in the Open Brethren myself, I would point out that the elders are not always elected. We never had elections. Instead they were appointed by the existing elders (who collectively in my congregation were simply known as 'the Oversight')
Ah, my mistake then. I may well have unintentionally assumed that Baptist/Congregational practice applied in the Brethren situation.
The word "oversight" is familiar from my experience in Southampton in the 70s.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
2. Open communion. The unstructured "open worship" style communion service as described in the MW report. Churches still identifying as Open Brethren will retain this format.
I'm unfamiliar with this tradition so bear with me. What does "open worship" mean in this context? That anyone can take communion? That there is no presidential minister and members take part as the Spirit moves them?
Yes. Exactly as you say there is no-one presiding over the service. It is entirely "open" for anyone to take part. This would normally take the form of asking to sing a song or hymn, praying (though typically prayers of worship not petitions), reading a passage of Scripture and/or sharing a thought. At some point in the service someone would give thanks for the bread & wine and the congregation would share communion. The intent is that the service is entirely led by the Spirit (though in practice of course there will be certain patterns and expectations).
There would be a huge variation in minor details though depending on the congregation, e.g.
1. In some congregations someone would be pre-assigned to lead off the service and formally open it in some-way. In others it would be entirely open.
2. Some congregations would still not permit women to participate though many open brethren churches would now welcome the participation of women in the "breaking of bread" service
3. The more traditional congregations will also avoid use of musical instruments and singing will be a Capella as in the MW report. Much more likely is the use of a piano to accompany and some congregations will use other instruments . Note this kind of service demands a lot of musicians given that potentially you could be asked to play any song out of a large hymn book at a moment's notice!
Having grown-up in this sort of church I really value this style when I am able to attend such a service. There is time for quiet reflection (sometimes absent in lively, family-orientated churches) and the service usually feels unrushed with space to focus on and worship God. There is an unspoken rule that the purpose of the service is worship - I.e. There is an expectation that everyone will come prepared with something to give. It is not about coming to receive (like with the equally unspoken rule that petitioning prayers aren't really the done thing).
Sadly this type of service is disappearing as the more traditional Brethren churches literally die out and the more modernising ones push the format to the sidelines.
[ 04. August 2015, 07:26: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
The one big difference is the open communion. It was expected that new visiting brethren would have letters of introduction from their elders.
Oh yes, I remember the 'letters of commendation'. (which one of my younger sisters accidentally called a 'letter of condemnation'). Zealous Brethren people would even obtain one when they went on holiday, so that they could be welcomed at an assembly in the area they were visiting. My father was a little bit rebellious and didn't bother with the letters, instead sometimes taking the opportunity to visit other types of churches (eg FIEC or Baptist, shock horror!) when we were on holiday. Or if we did attend a Brethren meeting while away, it was normally the slightly more progressive type than we attended at home, less likely to expect a letter. But we never ever went away on holiday (on a Saturday) as kids, without the first priority for the next day being to find a church to go to (usually both morning and evening services). Not entirely sure how my dad tracked them down in the pre-internet age!!
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Well, this sounds very much like Culver Grove, Stanmore, Middlesex (now Culver Evangelical) that I grew up in. I still have my baptismal Hymns of Light and Love.
My wife remembers taking part in a missionary meeting at Culver Grove in the 80s. As a woman, she was allowed to speak of her missionary service, but not to pray aloud in the subsequent prayer time.
quote:
The one big difference is the open communion. It was expected that new visiting brethren would have letters of introduction from their elders.
As a student attending an Assembly in Southampton in the 70s, I was never asked for a Letter; I was however able to take part in the worship and even break the bread. However I was brought by a friend whom they "knew" and I suspect the ruling was relaxed for students anyway.
quote:
I left at 16 and thought that, despite some of the things I loved (I conduct a very similar Lord's Supper in our house church), the Brethren would always be too narrow for me.
Of course, the New Church movement was strongly influenced by Brethren principles, especially through the late great Arthur Wallis. Perhaps that's not surprising when one remembers also that the Albury Conferences of the 1840s which sought to re-establish "New Testament churches" spawned both the charismatic/liturgical Catholic Apostolics and also one strand of Brethrenism.
[ 04. August 2015, 07:28: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Having grown up in the Open Brethren myself, I would point out that the elders are not always elected. We never had elections. Instead they were appointed by the existing elders (who collectively in my congregation were simply known as 'the Oversight')
The system I am familiar with is one in which the existing eldership appoints new elders, but the congregation expresses its agreement or disagreement by means of a secret ballot.
If the congregation's opinion varied from the eldership's, then the decision would be rethought, but I have never known this to happen, mainly because a wise oversight will always gauge the congregation's attitude thoroughly beforehand.
Yes exactly this approach would be the most common. (Though I would be surprised if there was a formal ballot - normally this would just be down to individual members to express any disquiet or disagreement privately to one of the Elders). Again some churches would have moved away from the original Brethren model of eschewing full-time ministers and the church would employ a full time pastor or minister. However, this person may or may not be regarded as one of the Elders. They may just be an employee if the church as a pastoral worker say or they may be an Elder who happens to work full time for the church.
Also typically Brethren churches are likely to own a building and/or be set up as a charity - this will mean that there is usually a set of a trustees of the charity - again this may be the same group as the Elders or a separate group. Once you get into the details there is a huge variety due the very loose affiliation within the network (if at all) and the strong tradition of the independence of local congregations.
In the UK there is an organisation called Partnership that is an affiliation of Open Brethren congregations. See here.
[ 04. August 2015, 07:36: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
We never ever went away on holiday (on a Saturday) as kids, without the first priority for the next day being to find a church to go to (usually both morning and evening services). Not entirely sure how my dad tracked them down in the pre-internet age!!
I think that there was quite a strong Brethren "mafia" or "intelligence service" in existence - people who knew people, as it were. Open Brethrenism (in those days anyway) was an "ipso facto" denomination, defined to an extent by the churches which subscribed to its missionary arm, "Echoes of Service".
Interestingly enough I met, some years later, a young man who wouldn't go to any "denominational" church because they were all "unscriptural". The only church he would attend was the "right type" of unaffiliated church - and, of course, all these churches knew each other! He couldn't (or wouldn't) understand that this was a denomination in everything but name. I presume he was an "Exclusive" or possibly even part of the "Little Flock", but I may be wrong (he came from a European country, I can't remember which).
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
The one big difference is the open communion. It was expected that new visiting brethren would have letters of introduction from their elders.
Oh yes, I remember the 'letters of commendation'. (which one of my younger sisters accidentally called a 'letter of condemnation'). Zealous Brethren people would even obtain one when they went on holiday, so that they could be welcomed at an assembly in the area they were visiting. My father was a little bit rebellious and didn't bother with the letters, instead sometimes taking the opportunity to visit other types of churches (eg FIEC or Baptist, shock horror!) when we were on holiday. Or if we did attend a Brethren meeting while away, it was normally the slightly more progressive type than we attended at home, less likely to expect a letter. But we never ever went away on holiday (on a Saturday) as kids, without the first priority for the next day being to find a church to go to (usually both morning and evening services). Not entirely sure how my dad tracked them down in the pre-internet age!!
It is precisely the requirement (or not) for a letter of commendation that determines if a Brethren church is open or closed. Open Brethren churches welcome people to take part in communion with no need for a letter. Closed congregations would require one.
[ 04. August 2015, 07:41: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
P.S. My previous comment cross-posted with Jammy Dodger (not the last post, but the one before), who's clearly much more up-to-date than I am!
[ 04. August 2015, 07:42: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
It is precisely the requirement (or not) for a letter of commendation that determines if a Brethren church is open or closed. Open Brethren churches welcome people to take part in communion with no need for a letter. Closed congregations would require one.
That wasn't the case in the 1960s. Ours was an open brethren, though I am not sure how rigid they were on the letter. I do know in some cases it was sufficient to have a quick word with one of the elders to be allowed to take part in the Lord's Supper. It was OK for anyone to attend the service (though a woman had ought to have had hair covering).
There was a closed Brethren assembly in Harrow-on-the-Hill that had a sign outside that said "Everybody Welcome" until someone took them at their word.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
It is precisely the requirement (or not) for a letter of commendation that determines if a Brethren church is open or closed. Open Brethren churches welcome people to take part in communion with no need for a letter. Closed congregations would require one.
That wasn't the case in the 1960s. Ours was an open brethren, though I am not sure how rigid they were on the letter. I do know in some cases it was sufficient to have a quick word with one of the elders to be allowed to take part in the Lord's Supper. It was OK for anyone to attend the service (though a woman had ought to have had hair covering).
I bow to your superior knowledge! ![[Smile]](smile.gif) My understanding was that the open-ness (or otherwise) was around the welcome at communion.
quote:
There was a closed Brethren assembly in Harrow-on-the-Hill that had a sign outside that said "Everybody Welcome" until someone took them at their word.
So true.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
And not just of Exclusive Brethren churches!
On a different slant, the MWer refers to being surprised at the use of "real" wine. Is this normal? At my 1970s church, they used port (no less!) although, I suspect, many of them were normally teetotallers.
Since I normally didn't have breakfast on Sundays, this gave me quite a "sensation" when the wine came round. (I hasten to add that my non-breakfasting was not due to a religious vow nor a nutritious decision, simply that our Hall of Residence kitchens opened too late on Sunday for me to catch my bus to church).
[ 04. August 2015, 08:20: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Thank you very much for all of this.
There was a prominent Brethren chapel in our town (although called Gospel Hall - we never knew they were Plymouth Bretren) which I passed on the bus to school every morning. Several very prominent citizens (including the sweet schoolmaster who took me for Religious Studies O level and my parent's solicitor) were members.
I only found out about what went on there when I read Mrs Beer's House, an account by Patricia Beer of her upbringing in a Brethren family.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And not just of Exclusive Brethren churches!
On a different slant, the MWer refers to being surprised at the use of "real" wine. Is this normal? At my 1970s church, they used port (no less!) although, I suspect, many of them were normally teetotallers.
Since I normally didn't have breakfast on Sundays, this gave me quite a "sensation" when the wine came round. (I hasten to add that my non-breakfasting was not due to a religious vow nor a nutritious decision, simply that our Hall of Residence kitchens opened too late on Sunday for me to catch my bus to church).
Yes. I always thought this was strange when I found out - back in the 70s and 80s you could typically expect most Brethren congregations to be largely teetotal (in practice if not on principle) so it was always a strange juxtaposition for communion to be real wine (or indeed port, I've also experienced that).
Again the divergence that has happened means that if you attend an open brethren church now they may have real wine or use a non alcoholic alternative (I may be wrong but I would guess the change on policy is to avoid excluding anyone from participation - either those who are teetotal on principle or due to previous alcohol dependence).
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Thank you very much for all of this.
There was a prominent Brethren chapel in our town (although called Gospel Hall - we never knew they were Plymouth Bretren) which I passed on the bus to school every morning. Several very prominent citizens (including the sweet schoolmaster who took me for Religious Studies O level and my parent's solicitor) were members.
I only found out about what went on there when I read Mrs Beer's House, an account by Patricia Beer of her upbringing in a Brethren family.
Yep "Gospel Hall" is a dead giveaway for a Brethren church. Usually only the "tighter" or closed congregations have kept this moniker most others have rebranded as they've evolved/modernised. But probably not exclusively (if you'll pardon the pun).
P.S. Randomly there was a Beer family in the Brethren church I grew up in.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
A friend brought up in the Exclusives (but later entirely ex-communicated to the extent of not speaking to his own mother for more than 40 years) once told me that the habit in his group was to visit local congregations throughout Sunday for multiple services. Given that they all used port, this meant he was a bit tipsy by the afternoon.
I never really understood why the same people went around to all the services.
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arse
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Wow! That's a new one on me. Maybe it was a competition to see who was the most holy. Interesting that independent congregations colluded together with different service times to make this possible!
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Dodgy signal meaning I can only post in bite sized chunks. On the exclusive/excommunication thing mr cheesy I regard my upbringing in an (admittedly open) Brethren church as largely positive and I have a lot to thank them for.
However, also very conscious that others (especially in the Exclusive Brethren) have had a very different experience and I also personally know people damaged by that experience.
[ 04. August 2015, 09:08: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
On a different slant, the MWer refers to being surprised at the use of "real" wine. Is this normal? At my 1970s church, they used port (no less!) although, I suspect, many of them were normally teetotallers.
Culver Grove normally used grape juice. It so happened on my first participation in The Lord's Supper they had run out of grape juice and used a red wine instead, surprising my friends. Wine was used occasionally when cartons of grape juice ran out.
On reflection, it is not so surprising that they could lay their hands on wine easily. Drinking wine was not spoken about in the assembly, but whenever members of the assembly came to dinner my father would say, "I don't know about you, but we like to have a glass of wine with the meal." The response was usually, "So do we."
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There was a prominent Brethren chapel in our town (although called Gospel Hall - we never knew they were Plymouth Bretren) which I passed on the bus to school every morning. Several very prominent citizens (including the sweet schoolmaster who took me for Religious Studies O level and my parent's solicitor) were members.
I only found out about what went on there when I read Mrs Beer's House, an account by Patricia Beer of her upbringing in a Brethren family.
Yep "Gospel Hall" is a dead giveaway for a Brethren church. Usually only the "tighter" or closed congregations have kept this moniker most others have rebranded as they've evolved/modernised. But probably not exclusively (if you'll pardon the pun).
It's only thanks the Ship that I've realised the connection between the Gospel Hall 'label' and the Brethren churches.
In the West Midlands you do see Gospel Halls round and about. I don't know how strict they are on the whole, but I know that one congregation regularly used to participate in the ecumenical church concerts that I went to every year or so. (Maybe they still do participate in such events). In fact, when it was the Gospel Hall's turn to host the concerts they eventually switched to using their local URC because it could hold more people than their own building.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm very interested in all this.
Why no or few prayers of petition? Are they strict predestinationists?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm very interested in all this.
Why no or few prayers of petition? Are they strict predestinationists?
No - I grew up in the Open Brethren and they are not at all Calvinistic. As strict as the Calvinists, sure, but I hadn't a clue what predestination was, or who Jean Calvin was, until I studied Reformation history at school!
They were, however, anti-liturgists. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The irony of that being that a Brethren service could be as tightly controlled as a liturgical one, if not more so! For all the being open to the Holy Spirit ... Of course, women were not allowed to pray or speak publicly, so that only gave the Spirit 50% of the congregation to work with. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I do remember the lovely white crusty loaf and the divine scent of that rich, ruby-red port they used at the Lord's Supper (Brethren-speak) though ...
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Brethren are definitely Arminianist.
Confusingly, there were/are non-Brethren Gospel Halls that are Grace Baptist/another Calvinistic Baptist group. Quite rare I think, though. There's an old Gospel Hall (a converted house) up for sale in a village near me (Sherborne St John, Hampshire) and I find it fascinating - would love to know what it looks like inside, and whether it's Brethren or not.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Brethren are definitely Arminianist.
Agree they are definitely Arminian. I had to re-learn my theology when I joined the Calvinistic Grace Bapists! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Another important difference that sets the Brethren apart from most other groups in the UK is their dispensationalism. .... And the insistence of women remaining silent in church and wearing head coverings. ..... And the rejection of paid clergy.
On the plus side they are excellent Bible scholars. Everybody is expected to know the Bible inside out. I think this is because Bible study/teaching is not left to the 'experts' ie clergy, so everyone is encouraged to engage with the text themselves.
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Brethren are definitely Arminianist.
Agree they are definitely Arminian. I had to re-learn my theology when I joined the Calvinistic Grace Bapists!
Another important difference that sets the Brethren apart from most other groups in the UK is their dispensationalism. .... And the insistence of women remaining silent in church and wearing head coverings. ..... And the rejection of paid clergy.
On the plus side they are excellent Bible scholars. Everybody is expected to know the Bible inside out. I think this is because Bible study/teaching is not left to the 'experts' ie clergy, so everyone is encouraged to engage with the text themselves.
ETA in answer to the question about why no prayers of petition at the Breaking of Bread. I think this is because of their guiding principle of 'worship before service'. The Sunday morning B of B is for worship alone. Other activities would follow at different services throughout the week. This will include 'children's work' (Sunday school was traditionally held on a Sunday afternoon) and the gospel meeting on Sundays, then during the week there would be a Prayer meeting, and a Bible Study meeting on different evenings, as well as more children's activities. The mid week Prayer meeting was the proper time and place for prayers of petition.
ETA sorry I meant to edit rather than double post!
[ 04. August 2015, 18:25: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Aravis
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# 13824
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Posted
My mother was brought up Brethren, though my parents were both Baptists by the time they met. I've been to a few Brethren services and they didn't seem that different from the FIEC Baptist church in which I grew up - though these were the more standard hymn-sandwich type evening services as far as I remember. We did go to a morning service there once and it felt more like the Monday night prayer meeting at my own church, except everyone was dressed in formal Sunday clothes.
In my mid teens, the church I went to started Covenanters as its main youth organisation. In Cardiff that seemed to be predominantly Gospel Hall groups. There was one local Covenanter rally we went to, in our usual Friday night jeans and T shirts, where one group of girls all turned up in longish skirts and headscarves. I remember overhearing them having an anguished discussion in the corridor and one saying, firmly but rather desparately, "Well, this is a church, so at least we're doing right, whatever the others are wearing, aren't we?"
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
Aravis,
I never worked out the thinking about buildings. It was frequently asserted that the church is the people. That is why we assembled in assembly halls and would not call them churches. Similarly the bread and wine and the table were important for the part they played in the act of remembrance, but when the Lord's supper was over the children could break off a chunk if they wanted too, or they could be taken to feed the birds, and the table could be used for any functional purpose.
On the other hand there were similar occasions when we would regard the place as sacred in itself.
As to liturgy, on Brethren discussion board when some declared they were spontaneous and did not have liturgy they did not argue when I said that there was an accepted approach to starting the Lord's supper with prayer and then people leading Hymns, prayers and scripture readings accompanied by expositions in which you could feel the leading up to the breaking of bread and the drinking of wine followed by a final prayer/Hymn. And everyone would bow their heads in silent prayer before getting up from their seat at the end.
If it looked like a duck, walked like a duck, sounded like a duck etc.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pomona:
Another important difference that sets the Brethren apart from most other groups in the UK is their dispensationalism. .... And the insistence of women remaining silent in church and wearing head coverings. ..... And the rejection of paid clergy.
Traditionally yes. But my point upthread was that now many Open Brethren fellowships will have diverged from this. Many will welcome the participation of women, employ church workers or ministers and be operating in the gifts of the Spirit in a thoroughly non-dispensationalist manner!
quote:
On the plus side they are excellent Bible scholars. Everybody is expected to know the Bible inside out. I think this is because Bible study/teaching is not left to the 'experts' ie clergy, so everyone is encouraged to engage with the text themselves.
Indeed. It is one of their great legacies to the church I think.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The thought that crossed my anglo-catholic head was that they managed to be liturgical (and impressively sacramental) within a Quaker framework (no ministers and leaving it to the Spirit.)
But why no intercessory prayer?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Brethren are definitely Arminianist.
Agree they are definitely Arminian. I had to re-learn my theology when I joined the Calvinistic Grace Bapists!
Another important difference that sets the Brethren apart from most other groups in the UK is their dispensationalism. .... And the insistence of women remaining silent in church and wearing head coverings. ..... And the rejection of paid clergy.
On the plus side they are excellent Bible scholars. Everybody is expected to know the Bible inside out. I think this is because Bible study/teaching is not left to the 'experts' ie clergy, so everyone is encouraged to engage with the text themselves.
ETA in answer to the question about why no prayers of petition at the Breaking of Bread. I think this is because of their guiding principle of 'worship before service'. The Sunday morning B of B is for worship alone. Other activities would follow at different services throughout the week. This will include 'children's work' (Sunday school was traditionally held on a Sunday afternoon) and the gospel meeting on Sundays, then during the week there would be a Prayer meeting, and a Bible Study meeting on different evenings, as well as more children's activities. The mid week Prayer meeting was the proper time and place for prayers of petition.
ETA sorry I meant to edit rather than double post!
Yes agree. Exactly this.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I see Gracious Rebel has answered me above.
It does seem a bit odd.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The thought that crossed my anglo-catholic head was that they managed to be liturgical (and impressively sacramental) within a Quaker framework (no ministers and leaving it to the Spirit.)
But why no intercessory prayer?
It's simply a time and place thing. Intercessory prayer would be a vital part of a Brethren church's make-up and would happen in many places and in other services on a Sunday.
It's just that the Breaking of Bread particularly would be reserved for worship only. Therefore any prayers offered would, by convention, be prayers of worship not intercession.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Agree they are definitely Arminian.
I have come across some of the most rabid and strident Calvinists I have ever met in the Brethren.
The majority are probably Arminian (even though many would not be familiar with the term) but it is by no means universal.
In our last assembly, there was no set party line, but for the sake of unity, doctrinaire Calvinism could not be pushed explicitly by speakers, and the same was true for enthusiastic supporters of other potentially divisive topics such as pentecostalism and young earth creationism.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I know next to nothing about the Brethren these days, and don't come from a Brethren background, but from what I have seen of them over the years, I have a great respect for the Open variety. They often get a lot of things right. After all, in 1965, say, the CofE wasn't that happy about women speaking and in some places made them feel pretty uncomfortable if they weren't wearing hats.
They have produced some very distinguished and respected theologians. If you encounter a theologian who isn't 'Rev', it's sometimes a sign that they come from a Brethren background.
I may be wrong on this, but I think John Lennox, the Oxford Mathematician, is Brethren.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
After all, in 1965, say, the CofE wasn't that happy about women speaking and in some places made them feel pretty uncomfortable if they weren't wearing hats.
There is an old and possibly apocryphal story about two Brethren worthies, illustrative of a sense of proportion or lack thereof, which runs:-
"Say what you will about Roman Catholics, at least they are rock solid on Christ's divinity".
"Yes, and they also make their women cover their heads".
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I know next to nothing about the Brethren these days, and don't come from a Brethren background, but from what I have seen of them over the years, I have a great respect for the Open variety. They often get a lot of things right.
I agree. One of the things that I believe many Open Brethren churches get right is the ability to hold unity in church practice whilst potentially holding together a very diverse range of theological views of the kind of spectrum that Kaplan Corday describes above. My theory is that the breadth of theological views comes from a number of sources. Firstly from within the Brethren tradition itself the independence of local churches and the emphasis on everyone becoming their own Bible scholar (also mentioned upthread by someone) encourages people to come to their own (hence different) conclusions (but still maintain unity within the fellowship). Also as Christians tend more towards attending churches whose practice suits them rather than because they are part of a specific denomination, then Open Brethren churches that are "getting it right" as Enoch says are likely to attract Christians from non-Brethren traditions (and hence an even wider theological range). Just a theory.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I understood that there was quite an overlap between people (usually young people leaving) the Open Brethren and the FIEC. Which is odd, if the above is correct and the Brethren is essentially Arminian.
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arse
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