homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » MW2897 Bethany Evangelical Church (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: MW2897 Bethany Evangelical Church
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I get the impression they don't normally say the words of institution but have an extempore thanksgiving over the bread and wine.

Which would be in line with primitive practice. I understand other protestants would have the words of institution (from 1 Corinthians) and nothing else.

Have I got that wrong?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I get the impression they don't normally say the words of institution but have an extempore thanksgiving over the bread and wine.

Which would be in line with primitive practice. I understand other protestants would have the words of institution (from 1 Corinthians) and nothing else.

Have I got that wrong?

No that's correct. There is extempore thanksgiving for the bread & wine - which usually would then be distributed to a seated congregation. In theory, any of the membership could give thanks though in my experience it would often fall to the Elders. There maybe 1 person that gives thanks for both elements or one person who gives thanks for the bread (which is then distributed) followed by another giving thanks for the wine (which is then shared).
Whilst in theory there is no liturgy at all I think if you attended for a few weeks you would quickly spot the conventions that have grown up, for example I would imagine the words from 1 Corinthians appearing fairly regularly in one form or another.
So I think your earlier point around an almost liturgical approach in a Quaker framework was a good description. There would never be a formal liturgy but I think there would be a very, very recognisable pattern at play every week. I also think you were right about with your "almost sacramental" comment. There is a real deep reverence for the Breaking of Bread within the tradition which whilst not "sacramental" in a strict theological sense nonetheless holds communion as a very special "sacred" practice.

(Again to the earlier discussion I think in an exclusive Brethren assembly as a visitor you would not be permitted to share communion, whereas in an open brethren church there would probably be some form of words at the start of the service (said with liturgical regularity) that "everyone who knows and loves the Lord is welcome to join us in sharing communion together" or similar).

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But it does seem to me that the Brethren demonstrate just how liturgical worship developed. And they might not call themselves “sacramental” but they are as far as I can make out. I said “almost” because they might not see it that way.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But it does seem to me that the Brethren demonstrate just how liturgical worship developed. And they might not call themselves “sacramental” but they are as far as I can make out. I said “almost” because they might not see it that way.

Yes I think you are right many Brethren would probably be horrified to hear their worship described as liturgical or sacramental but I agree with you they demonstrate the kind of approach from which those things can (or did maybe?) develop. Fascinating really,

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Did the thanksgiving for the bread and wine (real wine in a common cup of course gets big Brownie points from me) ever include thanksgiving for Christ's person and work or just for the bread and wine?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Did the thanksgiving for the bread and wine (real wine in a common cup of course gets big Brownie points from me) ever include thanksgiving for Christ's person and work or just for the bread and wine?

In my experience - yes definitely the thanksgiving would usually include a focus on the person and work of Jesus. Though part of my point upthread is that practice amongst the open brethren has diverged considerably so there may be more variety in approach now.

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
I think your earlier point around an almost liturgical approach in a Quaker framework was a good description. There would never be a formal liturgy but I think there would be a very, very recognisable pattern at play every week.

As I said above, the same is usually true in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church. I used to go to a Pentecostal church in Glasgow and one of the Elders said to me. "We say that we're free in the Spirit - but I can tell you within 5 minutes who's going to speak in tongues and what they're going to say". There's nothing wrong in this - I think it's simply how humans work!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

 - Posted      Profile for Leprechaun     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I understood that there was quite an overlap between people (usually young people leaving) the Open Brethren and the FIEC. Which is odd, if the above is correct and the Brethren is essentially Arminian.

It's hard to say essentially anything; as has been said they tend to be tight in some ways, but hold together a range of views.

The movement you are suggesting isn't uncommon. Quite a lot of FIEC churches are not Calvinist. But more than that, lots of FIEC churches have similar expressions of faith to the Open Brethren - plural eldership, everyone a Bible scholar, conservative on dead horse issues, lots of room for open participation in various forms, call to take one's personal faith seriously.
The people (and churches) who make this move do so, IME, because FIEC churches tend to be slightly more driven and directional. The downfall of the incredibly egalitarian OB approach is that, again IME, the church can become a total hotchpotch of different bits and pieces with a different meeting running for each particular preference group within the congregation.

--------------------
He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love

Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715

 - Posted      Profile for ExclamationMark   Email ExclamationMark   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Brethren are definitely Arminianist.

Confusingly, there were/are non-Brethren Gospel Halls that are Grace Baptist/another Calvinistic Baptist group. Quite rare I think, though. There's an old Gospel Hall (a converted house) up for sale in a village near me (Sherborne St John, Hampshire) and I find it fascinating - would love to know what it looks like inside, and whether it's Brethren or not.

Some are Arminian, some Calvinist. It seems to depend on the area - East Anglian brethren are pretty similar to Grace Baptists in their Calvinism IME.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
It's hard to say essentially anything; as has been said they tend to be tight in some ways, but hold together a range of views.

The movement you are suggesting isn't uncommon. Quite a lot of FIEC churches are not Calvinist. But more than that, lots of FIEC churches have similar expressions of faith to the Open Brethren - plural eldership, everyone a Bible scholar, conservative on dead horse issues, lots of room for open participation in various forms, call to take one's personal faith seriously.

Oh fair enough, I have been out of it a long time, but many years ago it was certainly a Calvinistic group.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
I think your earlier point around an almost liturgical approach in a Quaker framework was a good description. There would never be a formal liturgy but I think there would be a very, very recognisable pattern at play every week.

As I said above, the same is usually true in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church. I used to go to a Pentecostal church in Glasgow and one of the Elders said to me. "We say that we're free in the Spirit - but I can tell you within 5 minutes who's going to speak in tongues and what they're going to say". There's nothing wrong in this - I think it's simply how humans work!
Yep we like our regularity, patterns and routines even if we pretend they are spontaneous [Biased]

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The charismatic Baptist minister John Leach called services 'planned spontaneous Spirit-led happenings'. I think he got it pretty right!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

 - Posted      Profile for Sipech   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's something that irks me about charismatic churches (which I've been a part of for many years, having previously been FIEC). The idea that 'now is a time for prophecy' or 'now is a time for tongues' just seems completely contradictory and I wish we'd cut it out.

As a tangent, mention of non-Calvinist FIEC was something that piqued my interest, as I understood the FIEC was inherently Calvinistic. So I went for a search around their website. Thought about finding a place to visit and saw one that had the following in their directory entry (capitals original):
quote:
If you are already in Fellowship elsewhere, the Lord bless you WHERE YOU ARE!!
If you have NO spiritual home and are looking for a Fellowship or are just looking into what it means to be a follower of the Lord Jesus you would be MOST WELCOME!!!

[Eek!]

--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
The idea that 'now is a time for prophecy' or 'now is a time for tongues' just seems completely contradictory and I wish we'd cut it out.


Why? If you believe both that these things are genuine, and if you take St. Paul's injunctions about worship being done "decently and in order" and about the "spirit of the prophets being subject to the prophets", then surely this is the right way to do things.

Is your difficulty that you don't believe in these things and think they are spurious (and, goodness, I have heard enough trite "inspired" messages to last me a lifetime)? Or is it more along the lines of "If the Spirit inspires, then one must not hold back and formalise what is uttered"?

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I understood the FIEC was inherently Calvinistic

So did I.

quote:
So I went for a search around their website. Thought about finding a place to visit and saw one that had the following in their directory entry (capitals original):
quote:
If you are already in Fellowship elsewhere, the Lord bless you WHERE YOU ARE!!
If you have NO spiritual home and are looking for a Fellowship or are just looking into what it means to be a follower of the Lord Jesus you would be MOST WELCOME!!!

[Eek!]
But, presumably, only if that has been foreordained since eternity ... [Devil]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It seems there has been quite a change at the FIEC relatively recently. Apparently there is some discussion about ecumenicalism, and how it might not be a really bad thing.

Many years ago I had a conversation with the then leader of the FIEC in his garden. My wife, who I was woo-ing ( [Big Grin] ) was one of his church members, and I was an interloper as a member of a local Anglican church. It didn't go down well.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems there has been quite a change at the FIEC relatively recently. Apparently there is some discussion about

Now that would be a change - especially in light of the Martyn Lloyd-Jones/John Stott argument about "coming out" or "staying in" the traditional denominations.

Having said that, we have a local clergy meeting here which is held in (but not organised by) an independent and very evangelical Baptist church; the Minister (who is FIEC) acts as host. And the participants, although mostly evangelical, actually range from MOTR Anglican to Charismatic to traditionalist RC.

This is the latest (2011) FIEC Statement on Unity. Nice and brief, isn't it? The last short paragraph is interesting.

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have read the MW report and followed this thread with interest. I know quite a lot about the Plymouth Brethren and I used to know someone of that persuasion.
That persuasion has a fundamentalist interpretation of the scriptures, so that to them, the Word of Moses and of Paul ranks of equal importance to the Word of Jesus. In this connection, I could argue that no man can serve two (or even three!) masters; but that idea may be an overdone cliché.
That said, which the report does not make clear, is that they are supposed to be a male-dominated community and with no ordained ministry, only male members in the assemblies can take part in leading the worship meeting. By taking Paul’s words literally, women are supposed to be quiet in the assemblies. Also, ladies have to have their heads covered. By taking the words of Moses literally, they are so-called creationalists.
In view of the foregoing, I wonder whether clarification is available about the position of female participation in their acts of worship.

--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I have read the MW report and followed this thread with interest. I know quite a lot about the Plymouth Brethren and I used to know someone of that persuasion.
That persuasion has a fundamentalist interpretation of the scriptures, so that to them, the Word of Moses and of Paul ranks of equal importance to the Word of Jesus. In this connection, I could argue that no man can serve two (or even three!) masters; but that idea may be an overdone cliché.
That said, which the report does not make clear, is that they are supposed to be a male-dominated community and with no ordained ministry, only male members in the assemblies can take part in leading the worship meeting. By taking Paul’s words literally, women are supposed to be quiet in the assemblies. Also, ladies have to have their heads covered. By taking the words of Moses literally, they are so-called creationalists.
In view of the foregoing, I wonder whether clarification is available about the position of female participation in their acts of worship.

This strict approach to the non participation of women is probably only still evident in exclusive Brethren assemblies. In the Open Brethren church I grew up in, in the 70s, women were not required to wear head coverings and their participation was welcomed in all meetings (except the Breaking of Bread). I would expect now that most Open Brethren churches would've left all that behind them now - the only exception might be that all the Elders are still male in some fellowships. As my wider experience of the denomination is rather dated I can't be sure but many Open Brethren churches were on a definitely modernising trajectory back in the 1990s.

[ 05. August 2015, 16:42: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In the assembly we have just left no women wore "head coverings", and while women were not prevented from contributing in the traditional Breaking of Bread service (which attracted about 30 people, all middle-aged or old, as opposed to the family service which had about 300 of all ages), none did.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At the risk of putting the cat among the pigeons, were the Brethren REALLY such good Bible scholars as everyone tries to make out?

Sure, they produced F F Bruce and could hold a mean Bible study - I fondly remember some Bible studies I attended as a young evangelical that were led by a former Pentecostal turned Plymouth Brother ...

I found these were great for giving a good overview of the scriptures - where things were, what followed from what in terms of OT history etc - and we could all draw nice charts of Paul's missionary journeys and so on ...

But 'scholarship' ... you've got to be kidding ...

For a kick-off, even then I used to cringe at some of the bonkers, nut-job interpretations of Revelation I sat through during Gospel services ... the use of the Readers' Digest as some kind of confirmation of Biblical prophecies coming true and so on ...

Whilst they were certainly good 'biblicists', I'm not sure I'd want to attach the label 'scholarship' to what they were doing -- there was seemingly no understanding of certain literary forms, no insight into the actual dating of biblical texts ...

If anyone had introduced such topics they would have been shown the door ... given the right boot of fellowship ...

I well remember sitting through a Brethren youth meeting during one university holiday and the sweet old couple who led it gave out a Bible quiz. I was struck by how everyone present seemed to know how many Philistines Shamgar struck down with an ox goad but if you'd asked them any actual theological questions they wouldn't have had a clue ...

I'm not knocking Bible knowledge in and of itself - far from it -- when I was a GLE I felt rather proud of myself for my apparently encyclopaedic Bible knowledge and capacity for reeling off chunks of learned by rote scripture - something I'd picked up from the Brethren whilst passing through ...

But looking back our actual theological application of this extensive appreciation of chapter and verse was somewhat thin ...

But hey ... the Brethren know their Bibles, that's for sure. Whether they really have a better grasp than anyone else as to what it all means ...

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745

 - Posted      Profile for Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Email Ecclesiastical Flip-flop   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks shipmates for clarification about women's participation (or otherwise) and about their use (or non-use) of head covering. I would make clear that I asked my question leaving aside the rights and wrongs of these practices.

--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In the assembly we have just left no women wore "head coverings", and while women were not prevented from contributing in the traditional Breaking of Bread service (which attracted about 30 people, all middle-aged or old, as opposed to the family service which had about 300 of all ages), none did.

Hmmm. Maybe things haven't moved on as much as I'd assumed. I think this is interesting though as my belief is this is a really very common pattern you describe in Brethren churches. They may have a thriving family service with 100s of people attending but the BoB is reduced (not intentionally just via decline in attendance) to a few die-hards - is that your experience elsewhere? What (if anything) would you do to reverse the trend do you think? (I speak as one who values the format when I can manage to get to such a service).

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd be surprised to find many Brethren churches here in the UK attracting hundreds of worshippers. My guess would be that 60 people would be considered a large assembly here.

I might be wrong.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, in any case, I think they had an unwritten rule that, once they got to around 100, they would split so as not to get too big.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444

 - Posted      Profile for Latchkey Kid   Author's homepage   Email Latchkey Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In my assembly I heard it linked to Jesus sitting down the crowds in groups of 50s and 100s. The idea was that if an assembly reached 100 it should split into two. At least that prevents megachurches. Sorry MegaAssemblies.

I never heard of Calvinism and Arminianism in my assembly. It was normal for us to know our Bibles well, but as Gamaliel pointed out, not usually be good Bible scholars (though I must say it helped when I did my studies). What we were big on was the typological interpretation of the OT. We were also rather legalistic in our use of the Bible. In the end what impressed me most was demonstration of (silent) Christlikeness by some of the women.

--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In the assembly we have just left no women wore "head coverings", and while women were not prevented from contributing in the traditional Breaking of Bread service (which attracted about 30 people, all middle-aged or old, as opposed to the family service which had about 300 of all ages), none did.

I wonder if you have any idea why "none did" - was it that they felt unworthy, that women never had, that it was somehow a man's role despite the absence of any formal rule?

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In the assembly we have just left no women wore "head coverings", and while women were not prevented from contributing in the traditional Breaking of Bread service (which attracted about 30 people, all middle-aged or old, as opposed to the family service which had about 300 of all ages), none did.

I wonder if you have any idea why "none did" - was it that they felt unworthy, that women never had, that it was somehow a man's role despite the absence of any formal rule?
I think they were just going along with what they were used to and felt comfortable with.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
At the risk of putting the cat among the pigeons, were the Brethren REALLY such good Bible scholars as everyone tries to make out?

Sure, they produced F F Bruce and could hold a mean Bible study

The Assyriologist D J Wiseman is another one I can think of off the top of my head who had global scholarly recognition, and there were others.

The Brethren also punched above their weight in providing competent and influential lecturers at the Bible college level, many of whom had Brethren origins even if they moved away from their roots later in life.

At the grassroots level, Bible knowledge was often vitiated by the Scylla and Charybdis of ultra-literalism (ie YEC, dispensationalism) and ultra-allegorisation (especially the Tabernacle, but also something as obviously historical as Paul's voyage in Acts 27, which I have heard typologised).

The average member of the Brethren, however, still had a good scriptural grasp of credal orthodoxy (even if unaware of their debt to the creeds and the creeds' compilers) as well as evangelical distinctives such as justification by faith and the atonement.

This was in contrast with members of other denominations who were far more ready to just accept what they were told from the pulpit without any effort to understand it, let alone test it, and who were not limited to Roman Catholics - as a young teenage evangelical converted through a Billy Graham crusade, I was shocked to find that my fellow Methodists just swallowed what the minister told them without question.

In other words, the Brethren preserved the Reformation priniples of sola scriptura and the priesthood of all believers, an inchoate "hermeneutic of suspicion" which eventually burst its religious banks and affected every aspect of Western culture, political, social and intellectual.

[ 06. August 2015, 01:17: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Leprechaun

Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408

 - Posted      Profile for Leprechaun     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
At the risk of putting the cat among the pigeons, were the Brethren REALLY such good Bible scholars as everyone tries to make out?


I'm not sure that they were great Bible scholars. They certainly (much more than any other denomination even where I grew up in ultra-Prod Northern Ireland) actually made it clear you had to read the Bible, learn bits of it, know the stories. You are totally right that I had very little clue how it all fitted together or what it meant for real life. And certainly no knowledge at all of what we might call "scholarship."

But actually having in depth knowledge of what it says - well I think the way the Brethren do it is better than the way nearly everyone else doesn't do it.

Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
An inchoate "hermeneutic of suspicion".

Wow!!!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, I'd certainly agree that the way the Brethren did it (do it?) in terms of Bible study and broad grasp of the trajectory of the Biblical narrative is better than how other groups don't - or hardly - do it at all ...

I'm not knocking the practice and was almost reluctant to post my observations lest they cause offence or provoke a defensive reaction ...

FWIW, I believe the Brethren 'punched above their weight' in all sorts of ways - in evangelism ... (not necessarily within their own immediate contexts but with other agencies and often other churches) as well as in influence on other networks, groups, denominations ...

I'd certainly balance my criticisms of trite and patronising youth-group activities with a profound level of gratitude to them for instilling a love for the scriptures and an appetite for Bible study and theological reading ...

I only 'passed through' the Brethren while I was in my early stages of evangelical involvement and looking for somewhere to settle. I was probably only involved - so far as I was - for about 3 months all told - although I kept in touch with my Brethren contacts for much longer than that.

What did rub off on me during that period was the appetite for Bible reading and Bible study - and that despite some of the silliness - particularly in terms of allegorising - I heard the Parable of the Good Samaritan allegorised in such a way as to be of no practical use, Paul's shipwreck allegorised and more detail of the significance of tassles and fittings in the Tabernacle to last me a lifetime ...

I never bought into the dispensationalism nor the cessationism - and I soon headed into full-on charismatic territory but did carry some Brethren Bible-study ballast with me which meant that I was always questioning and assessing and not necessarily going along with the latest charismatic fad or fancy.

So the balance in that respect is more towards the positive side and I certainly don't want to give the impression that it was otherwise.

The 'restorationist' new church scene I became involved with was studded with former Brethren - and on the whole, they tended to bring a level of stability and common-sense to the whole thing.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The 'restorationist' new church scene I became involved with was studded with former Brethren - and on the whole, they tended to bring a level of stability and common-sense to the whole thing.

Although they could also bring a strong "separatist" and "we are the true New Testament church for today" approach, too.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well yes, that was very much the thrust - particularly from Arthur Wallis of course - but I suspect what they were doing in that respect was adding some 'weight' to a tendency that already existed to a certain extent.

I always had a lot of time for Arthur - everyone did - and in fairness, in personal conversation and in his attitudes he was a lot more eirenic than would appear from some of his writings and public pronouncements.

Looking back, the 'better' of the Bible-teachers among our particular network were mostly - but not exclusively - former Brethren.

There were a lot of former Baptists too and they brought a more reformed (small r) emphasis and some of them were no slouches when it came to preaching and teaching.

On the whole, though, my impression of the BUGB Baptists is that their ministers do have a better/wider grasp of the 'scholarship' issues I alluded to earlier.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thank you Kaplan Corday, as I had thought "it's always been that the men do it" and so a now authorised ministry does not get put into effect. The next generation might pick up on it though.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And, in any case, I think they had an unwritten rule that, once they got to around 100, they would split so as not to get too big.

I'm interested to know if this is still the case. I had thought that some of the open Brethren congregations had moved away from this and were meeting in larger congregations.
(Hence why you can get issues with the BoB service as the 'open' format only works group dynamics-wise up to around 50 people)...

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Hooker's Trick

Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89

 - Posted      Profile for Hooker's Trick   Author's homepage   Email Hooker's Trick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just to say what a fascinating thread; I was completely ignorant of the Open Brethren prior to this.

Are the Open Brethren in the UK related in any way to the Brethren Church that is somehow related to the Methodists in the US? (I'm guessing not...)

Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In other words, the Brethren preserved the Reformation priniples of sola scriptura and the priesthood of all believers, an inchoate "hermeneutic of suspicion" which eventually burst its religious banks and affected every aspect of Western culture, political, social and intellectual.

Indeed. It is certainly possible to trace a trajectory from the Reformation to current atheism and secularism.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Just to say what a fascinating thread; I was completely ignorant of the Open Brethren prior to this.

Are the Open Brethren in the UK related in any way to the Brethren Church that is somehow related to the Methodists in the US? (I'm guessing not...)

No, according to Wiki there are several unrelated groups with Brethren in the name. The one linked to the Methodist church is the Church of the United Brethren in Christ, which grew out of the Mennonites. UK Brethren grew out of Anglicanism.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There was also a Evangelical United Brethren Church which merged with the Methodist Church (USA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_United_Brethren_Church

There are a lot of different theologies which exist under similar names in these parts.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Silly question but I haven't noticed it dealt with.

I take it some man is moved to actually break the bread before communion. I take it there is a shared domestic leavened loaf.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. In my experience it is often "precut" almost all the way through so it is easy to then break into halves or quarters. These are then circulated round the Assembly and people prize out a bit to eat. The wine is then poured into one or more cups and passed around in the same way.

This is in contrast to the frequent Nonconformist practice of using little cubes of bread and individual cuplets of "wine", served to the congregation by Elders or Deacons in their pews.

[ 07. August 2015, 14:40: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm sorry to remember here some evangelicals sneering at the use of the word "fraction" as jargon.

Is it possible that some evangelicals don't bother to have the physical breaking of bread? (I know my church uses individual wafers but the action of breaking is mandatory.)

Because all that matters is communion?

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Jammy Dodger

Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872

 - Posted      Profile for Jammy Dodger   Email Jammy Dodger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Certainly in the Brethren tradition the action of breaking the bread (and pouring out the wine) is important - even giving it's name to the communion service itself which is typically called the Breaking of Bread.

There are other evangelical traditions of having pre-cut little cubes of bread as mentioned by Baptist Trainfan and in these traditions I don't think there is any action of breaking involved (as the little cubes of bread are too small I presume!)

[ 07. August 2015, 15:11: Message edited by: Jammy Dodger ]

--------------------
Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek

Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
There are other evangelical traditions of having pre-cut little cubes of bread as mentioned by Baptist Trainfan and in these traditions I don't think there is any action of breaking involved (as the little cubes of bread are too small I presume!)

Correct, unless the worship leader has a "demonstration" loaf to break before the people.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm sorry to remember here some evangelicals sneering at the use of the word "fraction" as jargon.

Could you explain this please, as I (for one) honestly have no idea what you're referring to! [Smile]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
O dear, sorry about that. Fraction is derived from the same Latinate stem as fracture and fragment and is a common mathematical term. I thought it would be obvious from the context and the related words. The OED defines

The action of breaking:

In Arithmetic A numerical quantity that is not an integer; one or more aliquot parts of a unit or whole number; an expression for a definite portion of a unit or magnitude.

in the Eucharist: the breaking or dividing of the bread

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, I guessed what you meant. But I've never heard the word used in the context of Eucharist (not even by my Anglican friends when they refer to breaking up the large wafer into small pieces). Nor have I ever heard Evangelicals sneering at it. That was my puzzle. [Confused]

[ 07. August 2015, 15:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It was one occasion here when an evangelical said "What the hell's the fraction?" as though it must be a silly idea just because they hadn't heard of it.

As if I said "What the hell's dispensationalism?" Which I wouldn't.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297

 - Posted      Profile for Below the Lansker     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:

There are other evangelical traditions of having pre-cut little cubes of bread as mentioned by Baptist Trainfan and in these traditions I don't think there is any action of breaking involved (as the little cubes of bread are too small I presume!)

In most Baptist churches here in rural West Wales, there is always a slightly larger piece of bread alongside the cubes, so that whoever is presiding has bread to break while the words of institution are being read.
Posts: 144 | Registered: Aug 2012  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools