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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ordered charismata
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure, but I also think some forms of window-dressing are more suited to the 'product' than others -- I do think that personal taste and personality type comes into it and agree that our responses and likes/dislikes can and do change over time -- but mileage will vary over what we consider positive, neutral or positively harmful ...
If we were to change the analogy from window-dressing to what's called 'physical evidence' in marketing theory - one of the original 7Ps alongside Product, Place, Price, Promotion (for 'product' marketing) with People and Process and Physical Evidence added to that for 'service' marketing ... then we could see some forms of 'window-dressing' being an integral part of the service as it were.
Not that I'm wanting to be so reductive as to boil the Gospel down to a readily packaged 'deal' of some kind ...
We are none of us disembodied beings - we are all hot-wired to respond to physical stimuli of one form or other - and our responses to those are going to be conditioned by a whole range of criteria.
Like you, I was initially very freaked out and put-off by my first exposure to things charismatic - but gradually I became acclimatised to it.
The same applied when I first encountered more 'Catholic' forms of worship - I was attracted and repelled in equal measure at one and the same time.
In the case of the charismatic - I stuck with it and perservered.
The same is true with more sacramental forms of worship. Like Laurelin I found Orthodox worship rather strange and inaccessible at first - but I feel fairly comfortable with it now because I've been exposed to it a lot more over the years -- it still feels rather alien but if I were to attend Orthodox Liturgies week by week it'd start to feel less alien and exotic and more the 'norm' ...
Same with anything else. I thoroughly 'enjoyed' (if that's the right word) an Anglican choral evensong I attended a few weeks ago ... whereas 20 or 30 years ago I'd have probably thought it was 'dead' or contained 'meaningless repetition'.
What's changed in the interim? The 1662 Prayer Book hasn't, the anthems and settings they used on that occasion haven't changed ... I've changed.
Yes, different strokes for different folks but there is just as much cultural baggage, expectation and 'forms' in evidence in an apparently casual and unstructured charismatic gathering as there is in a 1662 Prayer Book service - it's just the structure is a lot more obvious in the latter ... and, at the risk of sounding patronising, many of those engaged in the former won't actually realise just how formulaic the activity they are engaging in actually is.
All charismatic activity will routinise over time.
That is inevitable. That's how we are wired. There is nothing wrong with that. We can't help it. We are human beings.
No disrespect to the Salvation Army, for instance, but why do we think they've developed a particular 'look and feel' over the years? Because that's what happens. Why do we think they've put great store on things like the 'penitent form' and so on? Because nature abhors a vacuum and in the absence of what we might consider the 'regular' or traditional sacraments they have effectively developed new ones ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I'm not saying anything about the 'validity' or otherwise of these things - simply making the observation that forms evolve.
Is a poem any the less effective if it sticks to a set form rather than being written in free-verse? The form itself may heighten its emotional or aesthetic impact.
I'm not saying that charismata doesn't exist - although I would say that there's probably a lot less of it around than some people imagine and a lot more of it than others will allow - simply that there doesn't seem to be any logical or biblical reason that I can see why charismata shouldn't operate in an 'ordered' way ...
I don't make any claim towards 'prophetic' insight and what-have-you but on those occasions where I did 'prophesy' or bring a 'word from the Lord' (and I never used the 'thus saith the Lord' formulary or claim) whatever it was didn't simply drop into my mind at random ... it generally 'formed' from something I'd been thinking or meditating on or some scriptural passage or verse that seemed apposite to the circumstances.
I didn't just walk into a meeting and 'bingo' -- here come the prophecies ...
Looking back, I never really couched them in the standard forms and language that charismatics are prone to use either ...
But that's another issue.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm likely to be out and about over the next few days so it'll give a chance for others to post on this thread rather than me hogging it with hobby-horses ...
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
FWIW in the meantime though, I don't have an issue with the 'idea' of charismata per se - but I can't say I'm particularly impressed or convinced by much of what passes for them these days ... and looking back to the early '80s when I first encountered charismata etc I'd seriously call a lot of it into question ...
The issue for me isn't so much how services and meetings/gatherings are organised as the content ... what we need right across the board it seems to me - from the liveliest of charismatic churches through to the most traditional of liturgical/sacramental settings is proper catechesis.
A former cathedral chorister once told me that he never received any cathechetical instruction during the whole time he sang in a cathedral choir ...
On the other hand, I still hear evangelicals and charismatics using very loose and imprecise theological language when it comes to dealing with Trinitarian matters and often even having a very hazy idea about crucial issues such as the Divinity of Christ.
Something is not right in the state of all our churches.
Whether we have 'contributions' and apparent 'words' and 'prophecies' throughout a meeting or at a set-time put aside for the purpose is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned - what matters is the content of those contributions and utterances - and for the most part in my experience they tend towards harmless pious platitudes at best or wonky and potentially harmful wrong-end-of-the-stick cloud cuckoo land pronouncements at worst.
Hence my current position of seeing the 'charismatic' expressed in a different kind of way -- working in and through the normal, everyday means of grace and normal, everyday way we live our lives.
That's a view that strikes me as commensurate both with the Orthodox, the Reformed and the RC tradition ...
But who am I?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well ... been away - back now ... seems I'm the only one interested in this topic!
What's happened to Sipech?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
An American friend (based at St Thomas the Apostle in LA) regularly talks about her role in instructing catechumens. I have never encountered an Anglican church in the CoE that has catechism, let alone enough new Anglicans to set up catechism classes.
This proactive approach to lay education seems like a good thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Really? how do they handle the transition from childhood to semi-adulthood (teenager-ism) then?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well ... been away - back now ... seems I'm the only one interested in this topic!
What's happened to Sipech?
Rapture
Quotes File!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was told by my grandparents, speaking of late C19 early C20, that confirmation classes in those days included learning by heart and being able to recite the catechism in the 1662 BCP.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Really? how do they handle the transition from childhood to semi-adulthood (teenager-ism) then?
As far as I understood it, these catechism classes are for adults, but I may have misunderstood that. But certainly I've never encountered catechism classes for teenagers in Anglican churches in England, surely Sunday School and confirmation classes if applicable take care of all that?
Edited to add that in evangelical Anglican churches where confirmation is relatively uncommon, instruction in the faith would take place in youth Bible study groups, Bible camps and so on.
[ 14. August 2015, 19:29: Message edited by: Pomona ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Okay, maybe that's my confusion. In my (Lutheran) church, confirmation classes = catechism classes, and take place roughly around ages 11 to 13 or so.
There are of course classes, mainly Bible, both younger and older, but those tend to be handled in Sunday School or the various Bible study groups.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Okay, maybe that's my confusion. In my (Lutheran) church, confirmation classes = catechism classes, and take place roughly around ages 11 to 13 or so.
There are of course classes, mainly Bible, both younger and older, but those tend to be handled in Sunday School or the various Bible study groups.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yes, I understood these catechism classes as being akin to an RCIA course, rather than for young people.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I was told by my grandparents, speaking of late C19 early C20, that confirmation classes in those days included learning by heart and being able to recite the catechism in the 1662 BCP.
Not so long ago.... I am perhaps of the last generation in the Diocese of Ottawa who can cheerfully recite bits from the 1959/62 BCP catechism, as we were catechized just before the centennial year.
While paedagogical approaches have advanced somewhat, confirmation classes continue to feature locally. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that this was still the default in Anglican Canada.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I was given the catechism to learn as a teenager at confirmation classes. That was in the 70s in the UK. Sadly for that vicar I argued with him lots and wasn't confirmed, real thorn in his side. (I was confirmed later as an adult).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Reading through, I note that Pomona said (ages ago) that
quote:
...but it does just sound like the vocalisations X Factor contestants put in their songs or something
This aspect of 'order' in charismatic expression has interested me for a while, as a musician. How is it that the Holy Spirit can (and apparently regularly does) inspire folks to sing-in-the-spirit over Csus2-G (repeat), but does not often move worship band and singers to (say) Fmaj7-Bm7b5-Em7-A7-Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7...
But with that X-factor comparison, P. suggests something which makes me wish I'd been alive and attending charismatic worship in another era ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I read a book recently which helped me to work out some of the reasons I struggle in charismatic worship. It's called 'The Introvert Charismatic' by Mark Tanner. Lots of what I struggle with is style rather than substance within charismatic circles.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think there's a lot in that, Jenn.
What I find with many allegedly 'non-charismatic' settings is that they are just, if not more, charismatic in actuality - it's simply not expressed in the kind of extrovert way that is de rigeur in contemporary charismaticism - and also the sense of 'presence' and the numinous is 'realised' or articulated in a different way - but is none the less real for all that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
How is it that the Holy Spirit can (and apparently regularly does) inspire folks to sing-in-the-spirit over Csus2-G (repeat)
There was a time - it may still take place - where quite often during the 'singing in the spirit' section of the service at various conferences, the dominant note the congregation were all singing in would oscillate between the tonic and the major third. I often wondered if the entire setting was transposed to - say - some part of Asia - whether people would more naturally oscillate between the tonic and the minor third ..
On to a slightly more substantive point. On the formalistic thing, which has some interactions with Galamiel's comment about style (in Pentecostal circles) moving away from the old 'Thus Sayeth the Lord' way of conveying the message towards newer forms ..
I think it can be interesting to look at the ways in which the various third wave charismatic movements have tried to formalise the process by which 'prophecy' for one takes place [They had only to read a single OT mention of a 'School of Prophets' to find justification towards setting up their own]. Often these moves go along side a tendency to downplay the super-natural side of such things - we are told that everyone hears from God, it's just 'normal Christian life' after all. Often the way in which this is done ends up stripping anything distinctively Christian from it.
For instance, there is a 'Freedom in Christ' course which is fairly popular in UK charo circles. One session of which consists of 'hearing from God' - essentially pray, 'believe' and then speak out what 'God is telling you'. There are some half hearted checks and balances mentioned - but when I first heard this described I thought that it sounded exactly like lectio divina, except without the lectio.
Stylistically, things have moved from the OT prophet, through the motiviational speaker (Listen to Tony Robbins - himself indirectly influenced by New Thought - and compare with a certain generation of preacher), to the contents of 'The Secret' ["I see a box .. and inside this box is Gods love .. and I feel that you are keeping this box closed"].
[ 21. August 2015, 13:12: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
On a further note, let me say that I think the whole 'formalism' in charismatic circles 'divining ones gift' 'a day of casting vision', 'prophetic training', etc. come from various conflicting impulses.
I think anyone with long exposure to charismaticism would have been exposed to the jejune, but also the bizarre - and out of this springs the desire to emphasize the normality of the entire 'prophetic process'.
Simultaneously, the democratic impulse rebels against the idea that maybe these gifts are few are far between - and at the same time, some have seen the effects when a few 'claim' these gifts for their own. Throw in the prophetic school idea, and then the idea that everyone just needs to be trained in such things gains ground (with a little spiritual encouragement - after all "greater things you will do").
Finally, as these movements are largely middle class, the idea of inducted into these movements via the means of 'education' appeals intuitively (certainly more than something a lot more viscereal would).
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Chris, your very last comment is interesting, as it flies straight in the face of the approach taken by the original Pentecostals a century or more ago. Often coming from a working-class background, and reacting theologically against what they saw as the excessive rationality of liberalism, they were often fiercely anti-intellectual and would have strongly believed that the charismata were simply "given" by divine afflatus.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, interesting points Chris and Baptist Trainfan - I've been wondering where Sipech is - not because I want to argue with him but I'd be interested in his take on the whole inducement / yraining and education thing that seems de rigeur in charsmatic circles these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ah ... I see. In which case I am prepared to listen and not post should Sipech return to this thread.
I apologise for my garrulousness.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There was a time - it may still take place - where quite often during the 'singing in the spirit' section of the service at various conferences, the dominant note the congregation were all singing in would oscillate between the tonic and the major third. I often wondered if the entire setting was transposed to - say - some part of Asia - whether people would more naturally oscillate between the tonic and the minor third ..
Or whatever kind of tonality is culturally relevant to that congregation. God communicates to us in ways we relate to. Those who think God communicates to all in only one culture's language have a culture-bound view of God, seems to me.
There are many charismatics, I don't happen to have met any who think western modern tonality (developed only a couple hundred years ago) is God's own and God never endorses other tonalities when interacting with other people.
Western non-charismatic missionaries a generation ago seem to have suffered that mistaken kind of thinking, imposing western music and dress and behaviors on non-western cultures.
If some charismatics mistakenly think "singing in the spirit" must be in Western style, they are just following the historical lead of many non-Charismatics. It's a feature of being human, alas, not a feature of being charismatic, so it can't validly be used to "prove" them somehow less God-aware or less God-responsive or less intelligent (or whatever the complaint is) than non-Charismatics.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Liturgy, sacraments, both are ordered charisms, or at least that is the intention and, for me, frequently the experience.
The way I see it personally is not so much that they are automatically spirit-filled in themselves, but that they act as a framework, at times even a climbing frame, allowing the spirit in me to come out and exercise, and interact with the language, the symbols, the experience. In a congregational setting, that takes on a collective dimension, which can be by turns separate from and part of the individual experience.
The joy of that kind of ordered charism is that it allows the congregation to travel together, with each other and with those leading worship, such that the whole body really can arrive together. Although there is a priest at the altar, the congregation is there with them, not half a step behind. Or at least, that's what happens when things are at their best.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
It's a feature of being human, alas, not a feature of being charismatic, so it can't validly be used to "prove" them somehow less God-aware or less God-responsive or less intelligent (or whatever the complaint is) than non-Charismatics.
I wasn't taking it as evidence of anything in particular, I was just adding to the previous observation.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
There was a time - it may still take place - where quite often during the 'singing in the spirit' section of the service at various conferences, the dominant note the congregation were all singing in would oscillate between the tonic and the major third.
Or whatever kind of tonality is culturally relevant to that congregation. God communicates to us in ways we relate to.
I would have thought something similar relates to tongues-speaking - I would not be surprised to discover that it generally uses the phonemic structure or speech sounds of the speaker's native tongue. If true, this would suggest that it is dissociative behaviour rather than a true foreign (or angelic) language. This does not necessarily mean that it is not "inspired", merely that it is (rightly) a human construct as much as a divine one.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
A friend who grew up amongst English pentecostals commented to me that in his experience (and mine I guess, more recently amongst charismatic RCs) the phonemes normally sound a bit 'middle-eastern', as judged by someone who doesn't speak such a language.
We were both struck by the absence of, for instance, German sounds in such utterances. Coming from the Saarf East, I also note the general absence of diphthongs ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I guess my Thomas-like expression of disbelief 'unless I see the wounds in His hands...' is shaping up to something like 'unless I hear someone scat singing in German over a praise band spontaneously jamming a-la Monk / Mingus...'
So, if that happens in a shack near you, I'd find it hugely edifying to attend.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
The Didache (late C1st) sees the prophetic within the context of Eucharistic ministry. Especially after the Eucharist, which it speaks of as a sacrifice or offering.
Assuming 1 Corinthians follows the pattern of their worship the passages on the Charismatic follow those on the Eucharist.
The liturgy of Revelation is less clear, as it ends with the marriage supper of the lamb.
On balance, from scripture and from early Christian writings the appropriate place for the exercising of Charismatic gifts is as part of the post Eucharist thanksgiving.
Where we have the notices.
It is worth noting that Catholic theology has never denied the operation of the Charismata. The questions (and renewal) centre around the availability and frequency of those gifts.
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I am never far away.
I have over the last few years been re-engaging with charismatic within a different theological framework, because I could not ignore the evidence that the early church remained charismatic and liturgical.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
It is worth noting that Catholic theology has never denied the operation of the Charismata. The questions (and renewal) centre around the availability and frequency of those gifts.
Though neither a charismatic or RC, I've been finding fellowship with such since my kids ended up at an RC primary school. They're a great bunch - some stuff is familiar (same songs, same spirit singing, same type of healing services / prayers-in-tongues) - some less familiar (the rosary, host in monstrance, ...). The liturgical setting adds a degree of order which makes it possible (safe?) for me to include myself; personally I don't feel safe in a charismatic free church setting.
Oddly I may in part feel safe since it has things in common (fervour in an ordered setting) with the more 'enthusiastic' end of my Methodist upbringing. Alas, around these parts our enthusiasts have departed.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've never encountered charismatic stuff in an RC or Anglo-Catholic setting so I'd be interested to see how it 'works' in those contexts.
I'm certainly 'through' with the charismatic thing as commonly spplird in a non-liturgical or sacramental setting but don't know enough about how these things work elsewhere.
Perhaps I ought to visit your parish one day to see how it's done.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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