Source: (consider it)
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Thread: World faiths' scriptures in Christian worship
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I believe the Spirit spoke to me through The Upanishads when I was 19.
The reading above did NOT end with 'This is the word of the Lord'
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Josiah Crawley: Wow! I didn't think my post would get so much interest! Thanks for those comments and thoughts.
I've got in front of me the order of service from the cathedral of Saint John the Divine.
Here is a quote from Dean Kowalski in the introduction to the liturgy booklet:
"Each year the Earth Mass and Blessing of the Animals is placed under the roof of this Cathedral as a way of re-convening a conversation about stewardship of creation. There are many ways - through liturgies, art and other forms of discourse - we endeavor to call people together across faiths and cultures to the kind of advocacy that builds more just societies."
Building a more just society would be a good thing, but I don't think Christian churches should be making it a higher priority than proclaiming the Gospel.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
Are they in conflict?
-------------------- "Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: Building a more just society would be a good thing, but I don't think Christian churches should be making it a higher priority than proclaiming the Gospel.
Good to have Christian relative indifference to Justice as Fairness (see Rawls) confirmed.
-------------------- Refraction Villanelles
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
What I left out was my curiosity why, given the amazing amount of specifically Christian literature, from the Fathers onward, non-Christian readings would be chosen, much as I might want to recommend agnostic and even atheist authors who might appeal to me.
-------------------- Refraction Villanelles
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garasu: Are they in conflict?
No, but the Social Gospel is only half the picture.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
But still half.
Are you going to criticise another liturgy for omitting it?
-------------------- "Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
That's not the point. The point is that the Dean of SJD decided that the Social Gospel is so important that his concern for the environment trumped the liturgy of the Church and compromised its proclamation of the Good News.
And yes, it upsets me just as much to hear Christians say that the commandments to care for others really only apply to their spiritual needs and not their physical ones.
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Hang on ... we suddenly seem to have got onto a completely different topic. It's one which is worth debating (indeed, it causes tension with my own congregation). But it's surely not what the OP was asking.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I think the triune God can speak to Christians through the Quran, as can other texts - but I don't think that makes it suitable for corporate Christian worship and especially not the Eucharist.
All Christians have differing opinions on the Bible and how they use it, but it is universally considered to be the holy text of Christianity. There's unity there, in some form at least. Unity in Christ is the basis of the Eucharist and this needs to be reflected in the readings.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Oblatus: quote: Originally posted by Stetson: Oblatus wrote:
quote: I've walked out of an Episcopal parish church on a Sunday morning when I looked at the leaflet to find out it would be a Rosh Hashanah liturgy of some sort. Doubting the synagogue would be doing a Holy Eucharist, I left and made it to the Roman Catholic parish where the readings of the day were proclaimed and preached.
So the issue is tit-for-tat for you? In other words, if a synagogue DID decide to host a Holy Eucharist, then the Rosh Hashanah liturgy would be okay?
No, it wouldn't. I'd find both appropriations, um, inappropriate. My problem was with the fact that a main Sunday service in a parish church was not even a liturgy of the Episcopal Church. My thoughts about the synagogue were more like, "This service from another religion would be unthinkable in the synagogue, or mosque, or Eastern Orthodox church; why do we think it's just fine here?" Do it as part of a class on Jewish liturgy, not as the main Sunday service of the parish.
Okay, if your point was that cross-sectional services are not the way things are normally done in most faiths, that's a better point than what I had assumed with my tit-for-tat interpretation.
I still think that, if a particular religious group reaches the conclusion that appropriating other faiths' writings or rituals fits their needs, they should go ahead and do it, regardless of what any other group does. [ 13. October 2015, 06:21: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
As it is not part of my background, I was rather taken aback a couple of weeks ago to hear a bible reading from the Book of Wisdom.
I'm thinking I might have a similar reaction to hearing the Koran.
It doesn't really fit within the general understanding of "Christian scriptures" and doesn't really fit many of our ideas of how God speaks, I guess. Or at least not the ones I've grown up with.
Although I would have been very offended in my younger days, I don't know what I would think now - other than that these things need a lot of context and understanding, so the chances of a random reading by a Christian of another sacred text is unlikely to be faithful to another faith.
-------------------- arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson: Okay, if your point was that cross-sectional services are not the way things are normally done in most faiths, that's a better point than what I had assumed with my tit-for-tat interpretation.
I still think that, if a particular religious group reaches the conclusion that appropriating other faiths' writings or rituals fits their needs, they should go ahead and do it, regardless of what any other group does.
Of course, there are certain religious groups who make a point of taking bits-and-pieces from any scriptures they can get their hands on. I'm thinking of Gandhi's Hinduism, for example. Also I remember entering a Quaker meeting house and seeing the [apparent] veneration of a female goddess.
I think the problem is more pronounced when one is not a unitarian, Quaker etc but are trying to bring in other scriptures to a religious worship service where the rules either do not state that this is allowed or specifically state that it is not allowed. I'm not sure of the exact status of other scriptures in the EC, but I'm doubting that they are supposed to be read on the same status as the gospels, for example.
-------------------- arse
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: As it is not part of my background, I was rather taken aback a couple of weeks ago to hear a bible reading from the Book of Wisdom.
I'm thinking I might have a similar reaction to hearing the Koran.
It doesn't really fit within the general understanding of "Christian scriptures" and doesn't really fit many of our ideas of how God speaks, I guess. Or at least not the ones I've grown up with....
If you mean the Wisdom of Solomon, it is the the Apocrypha, one of the deuterocanonical books. It is part of the Greek version of the Old Testament but not the Hebrew one. The CofE lectionary includes them, but for those that don't like them or only have a bible that omits them, provides an alternative reading from the Hebrew part of the Old Testament.
The Koran though is the sacred book of the Moslem faith, which is another religion. That religion claims Mohammed wrote it under the direct inspiration of God. As Christians, we do not accept that claim.
So there is no similarity between reading from the Wisdom of Solomon and reading from the Koran in public Christian worship.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: If you mean the Wisdom of Solomon, it is the the Apocrypha, one of the deuterocanonical books. It is part of the Greek version of the Old Testament but not the Hebrew one. The CofE lectionary includes them, but for those that don't like them or only have a bible that omits them, provides an alternative reading from the Hebrew part of the Old Testament.
I know what it is, I have never heard it read in church before. In my background, that would not be considered to be part of the biblical canon, but YMMV.
quote: The Koran though is the sacred book of the Moslem faith, which is another religion. That religion claims Mohammed wrote it under the direct inspiration of God. As Christians, we do not accept that claim.
As I said, that is not a distinction with a difference from the point of view of my background.
quote: So there is no similarity between reading from the Wisdom of Solomon and reading from the Koran in public Christian worship.
Well, y'know. Whatever.
-------------------- arse
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: As it is not part of my background, I was rather taken aback a couple of weeks ago to hear a bible reading from the Book of Wisdom.
I'm thinking I might have a similar reaction to hearing the Koran.
It doesn't really fit within the general understanding of "Christian scriptures" and doesn't really fit many of our ideas of how God speaks, I guess. Or at least not the ones I've grown up with.
Although I would have been very offended in my younger days, I don't know what I would think now - other than that these things need a lot of context and understanding, so the chances of a random reading by a Christian of another sacred text is unlikely to be faithful to another faith.
It's hard to argue that there is an exact analogy between the Qur'an and the Wisdom of Solomon. One unambiguously stands in the Christian tradition, even if not quite in your part of that tradition, and the other unambiguously denies the Christian tradition.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I thought Wisdom of Solomon stood in the Jewish tradition?
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: Building a more just society would be a good thing, but I don't think Christian churches should be making it a higher priority than proclaiming the Gospel.
I thought the gospel was largely about justice - thy kingdom come...on earth etc.
A large part of the Gospel is about justice. All the more reason to choose such a reading from one of the Gospels rather than going elsewhere and implicitly saying thereby that this is not a theme which is adequately treated in Christian scripture.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Basilica: It's hard to argue that there is an exact analogy between the Qur'an and the Wisdom of Solomon. One unambiguously stands in the Christian tradition, even if not quite in your part of that tradition, and the other unambiguously denies the Christian tradition.
I'm not arguing, I'm telling you how it felt for me, with a background that did not allow that the Book of Wisdom was any more part of the biblical canon than the Koran. This isn't up for debate, this is how felt.
If you want a debate (although I've no idea what you think there is to debate here), why don't you start a discussion in Purgatory?
-------------------- arse
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the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
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Posted
I find this very peculiar... As far as I can see, it all hangs on the content of the sermon, because this is either an interesting opportunity or utterly inept.
Remember, this isn't a celebration of "Creation Day" or some such, it's the feast of a particular person: a complex, important, and interesting saint.
One of the things that St. Francis did after organizing his eponymous order was to journey to Egypt with the intent of evangelizing the Sultan. He was attempting to end the Crusades by means of converting them all to Christianity!
Hence, the inclusion of a reading from the Quran could either be brilliant (if engaged during the sermon and explained) or a stunning contradiction of the person being celebrated...
-------------------- The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: "If" is a big question.
Actually, that "if" isn't a big question at all. The Spirit does speak beyond the words in the Christian Bible. It's his job. "the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things ... I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." (John 14:26, 16:12-13).
The big question is how we discern whether we're listening to the Spirit of God or some other spirit.
Oh come on... they are not quoting the Kuran because they think the Spirit also talks through it. They quoting it becuase they think the Spirit doesn´t actually talk anywhere. When liberals talk about the Spirit they are not talking about the divine person of the trinity, they´re just sayng something like "that text is nice, it sounds inspired". It´s not like they actually believe there is a God to reveal something to us.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I think that's a huge and inaccurate over-generalisation. There are shades of liberals, some of whom would indeed see things in the way you describe. But there are others who - although perhaps struggling to understand the Personality and Divinity of the Spirit - most certainly would not.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Hostly hat ON
gorpo, you agreed to abide by the Ten Commandments of the Ship when you signed up. One of those states that you should not 'easily offend'. I don't think your last post can be seen as anything other than a attempt to be deliberately offensive to a large swathe of people, including many who have posted on this thread.
Please consider yourself duly warned and try to engage in Ecclesiantics in a manner more respectful of other's traditions in the future.
Hostly hat OFF
-------------------- Flinging wide the gates...
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
gorpo,
I don't actually know much about the particular church mentioned in the OP. I was talking more generally of why I would consider it appropriate, at times, to include non-Biblical texts within worship. And, that is because although I believe that the Spirit speaks most clearly through the Bible I also believe truth can be found elsewhere. And, theologically I do not consider myself to be liberal but evangelical (although more liberal than the Missouri Synod Lutherans I currently worship with).
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: Alan, if that's in Japan, we probably know some people in common!
I tried to send a PM, but your inbox is full.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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