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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Croatia and S. Luke's Day
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
The writer of this report seems to be surprised that they didn 't observe Luke.
The RCC cleared out a lot of clutter at Vaican 2 in order to follow the protestant principle of continuous reacing of scrupture without missing out chunbks when there is a saints day - in a nutshell, the feriale trumps the sanctorale because every Sunday is a feast of the resurrection.
I am annoyed that lots of C of E churches are now ditching the Sunday lectionary whenever a saints day falls on a Sunday instead of transferring it to the Monday. It seems most uncatholic to me yet many catholics are doing it.
What do others think?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Depends on the book you're using. In the US 1928, a feast of an apostle or evangelist trumps Sundays after Trinity, so we celebrated St Luke yesterday rather than Trinity XX. It's not a great loss to lose a Sunday, continuous or otherwise, every seven years.
There are a number of features of the current Roman Rite that are the result of some committee of liturgists applying some trendy theory or other (reversing the order of the dismissal and blessing being one example). Liturgy is more like poetry than technical writing, and rationalizing it misses the point.
Also, Rome is not the sole arbiter of what is or is not "catholic".
[ 19. October 2015, 16:21: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Transferring to a Monday means (in the vast majority of cases) effectively ignoring it.
I'm all in favour of Saints' Days being celebrated if they fall on a Sunday, especially outside of the main church seasons. Yesterday, we celebrated St Luke's day, with the Collect for the day, special readings and a sermon on Luke. Many people commented afterwards on how much they appreciated it.
The concept of continuous reading of scripture is a bit of a fallacy anyway. For a start, the "continuous" readings often miss out huge chunks. And secondly, it is a false assumption to think that the congregation each week will be the same and will be following the "continuous" readings. Some people may be there every Sunday, but huge quantities won't. That's why the traditional evangelical practice of Sermon Series is also deeply flawed these days. I remember years ago often hearing preachers start by saying something like "as you will remember from last week, in our series on Colossians...." But if it was really true then that most people would be there each week to hear the full series (and so might be able to remember what the preacher said the previous week), that is increasingly less the case now.
In principle, I like the idea of continuous readings, so that people get a proper idea of what a book in the Bible is all about, rather than just random snippets that have been artificially attached to other random snippets from other books in the Bible. In practice, though, I think we need to be deeply realistic about how often "regular churchgoers" actually attend church.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Liturgy is more like poetry than technical writing, and rationalizing it misses the point.
Exactly this!
In my Diocese, a new liturgy is being trialed at the moment. It has some good points, but one of the most important things I would want to say to the liturgical group that has developed it is "go away and give this to a poet (it doesn't matter if the poet is a Christian or not!). Let them rip it apart and put it back together again."
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
Celebrating saints' days on Sundays is OK-ish, especially if it's the only way saints would ever get celebrated.
What is less OK, in my view, is the recent trend of transferring saints' days to Sundays. You see this particularly with St Francis, for some reason, but it happens to other feast days as well. It seems to be essentially "well, all these Sundays after Trinity are a bit boring".
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
What is less OK, in my view, is the recent trend of transferring saints' days to Sundays. You see this particularly with St Francis, for some reason, but it happens to other feast days as well. It seems to be essentially "well, all these Sundays after Trinity are a bit boring".
You get an Amen from this corner on that one.
In a way, I think it's admitting defeat. It's bowing to the laity's impression that church is for Sunday and any requirement that one attend church on some other day of the week is a gross imposition.
I was once asked whether we were celebrating Epiphany on January 2 or January 9. "January 6," I replied. External solemnity, my butt.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
It also fits in with the recent insane tendency to try and make EVERY Sunday "special" in some form. "Education Sunday", "Vocations Sunday", "Seafarers Sunday", "World Food Sunday", "International Claustrophobia Sunday".....
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It also fits in with the recent insane tendency to try and make EVERY Sunday "special" in some form. "Education Sunday", "Vocations Sunday", "Seafarers Sunday", "World Food Sunday", "International Claustrophobia Sunday".....
Or even more convincingly religious ones, like "Bible Sunday" and "Creation Sunday".
As well as spreading liturgical illiteracy, it tends to be patronising to the congregation. It assumes they need to be told what to think, rather than allowing them to be swept up into the narrative of creation, redemption and salvation.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I have the impression that those "titled Sundays" started in places where the liturgical calendar is non-existent, minimal, or just not observed. Nature abhors a vacuum.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
We use the Canadian prayer book of 1962, so the red-letter day took precedence. We had a full procession before solemn mass: photos will be forthcoming shortly.
It may be worth noting that the bumping of St Luke by the ordinary Sunday is a development from the beginning of the Council:
quote:
In the 'liturgical books of 1962' the 'green' Sunday is celebrated. The third Sunday of October and its week are omitted and the fourth Sunday of October celebrated. Mattins is cut down to one nocturn of three lessons. St. Luke gets a commemoration at Lauds and Low Mass only. The prayer for the propogation of the faith is added to the collect of the Sunday under one conclusion. Vespers are of the Sunday without any commemorations.
[ 19. October 2015, 20:07: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
<snip>Or even more convincingly religious ones, like "Bible Sunday" and "Creation Sunday".<snip>
AFAICT, Bible Sunday in England had its origins in the 1662 BCP Collect for the Second Sunday in Advent, which was, from 1980, reinforced by the ASB lections for that day. CW following RCL lost that (for good or ill) in a different treatment of Advent, but saved it by putting it in as an optional observance for the last "after Trinity" Sunday.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
CW following RCL lost that (for good or ill) in a different treatment of Advent, but saved it by putting it in as an optional observance for the last "after Trinity" Sunday.
I thought that was supposed to be "Christ the King"?
[ 20. October 2015, 15:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
That's the new-calendar position of CtK. It used to be observed on the last Sunday of October (a counterpoise to Reformation Sunday).
My jurisdiction keeps it in the old position, which is sort of nice because it's better to lose a different Sunday after Trinity each year than to permanently lose the Sunday Next Before Advent.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
The new date for CtK is the only post-1969 usage we follow. (I only wish we had a proper Sacrament procession and Benediction!)
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I'm getting Very Confused. I thought the Last Sunday After Trinity was the Sunday Before Advent. Now I look on an Anglican website which tells me that it (and Bible Sunday) are, in fact, this Sunday; and then follows the season of All Saints.
Being a Nonconformist is so much easier!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Pius XI instituted the Feast of Christ the King in the mid 1920s as a sort of antidote to the rising anticlerical establishments in various European countries. He set it towards the end of the liturgical year just before the Feast of All Saints.
It is doubtful if Pius XI was aware of Reformation Sunday.
In the big liturgical reforms in the wake of Vatican 2 the Feast of Christ the King was placed at the very end of the liturgical year, the last Sunday before Advent.
A good number of Anglican churches celebrate Christ the King,but they are not obliged to follow the Sundays of the Roman Catholic calendar.
On the other hand the RC church in Croatia would be obliged to follow this calendar and St Luke's day is not a day which replaces the normal Sunday liurgy.
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Advent 2 just HAPPENED to have the words in that collect.
I think it was the Bible Society that hyped it up into a 'special Sunday'.
The Bible Society promoted 'Bible Sundays' on various days (including Advent 2). In its centenary year, 1906, there was a 'Universal Bible Sunday' on the first Sunday in March. The observance soon shifted to the 2nd Sunday in Advent, not only because of the Collect, but also because the BCP also just happened to have readings which cohered thematically with the Collect.
This was subsequently reinforced by the ASB lectionary provision around the theme of "The Word of God in the Old Testament". By the time the CW Lectionary was produced the observance was well-established.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
I believe that the Feast of Christ the King was celebrated for the first time on Sunday 25 October 1925. Anglicans now keep the feast on the last Sunday in the Church's year. I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
CW following RCL lost that (for good or ill) in a different treatment of Advent, but saved it by putting it in as an optional observance for the last "after Trinity" Sunday.
I thought that was supposed to be "Christ the King"?
Christ the King as a C of E observance only came in officially with the Common Worship Lectionary which, following Promise of His Glory, introduced what is sometimes called Kingdom Season or All Saints to Advent (PDF)
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I've only ever encountered CtK being held on the Sunday before Advent in Anglican churches.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
One of the confusing factors here is the term "last Sunday after Trinity".
For the C of E (and I think ONLY the C of E), the last Sunday after Trinity is at the end of October. The Sundays in November leading up to Advent are then termed "Sundays before Advent", but also can be termed "Kingdom Sundays" (which is a pseudo-season of its own). "Bible Sunday" is a permitted alternative to the last Sunday after Trinity, which will be in October. This has moved "Bible Sunday" (and the well-known collect) from Advent 2.
For everyone else, "Last Sunday after Trinity" means the Sunday before Advent. And this is where the C of E places Christ the King - but in the C of E, it comes as the Last Sunday before Advent (which is NOT the same as the Last Sunday after Trinity). Is that clear?
No?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
A good number of Anglican churches celebrate Christ the King,but they are not obliged to follow the Sundays of the Roman Catholic calendar.
In the Book of Alternative Services of the Anglican Church of Canada, the last Sunday of the year is the "Reign of Christ," and the quasi-official McCausland's Ordo put out by Church House suggests white as the colour.
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
Anywhere that follows the "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. In Toronto, where I lived until a few years ago, there is a big do (usually Solemn High Mass, Procession, and Benediction, but it can depend on the venue) at a different church each year in the afternoon of the last Sunday of October. It's sung by a travelling schola and supported by the local chapter of Una Voce.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
Anywhere that follows the "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. In Toronto, where I lived until a few years ago, there is a big do (usually Solemn High Mass, Procession, and Benediction, but it can depend on the venue) at a different church each year in the afternoon of the last Sunday of October. It's sung by a travelling schola and supported by the local chapter of Una Voce.
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Depends on the book you're using. In the US 1928, a feast of an apostle or evangelist trumps Sundays after Trinity, so we celebrated St Luke yesterday rather than Trinity XX. It's not a great loss to lose a Sunday, continuous or otherwise, every seven years.
The '79 BCP also actually tacitly allows this. It says that only 10 feasts trump any Sunday's mass; however, it also has this oft-overlooked rubric:
quote:
When desired, however, the Collect, Preface, and one or more of the Lessons appointed for the Feast may be substituted for those of the Sunday, but not from the Last Sunday after Pentecost through the First Sunday after the Epiphany, or from the Last Sunday after the Epiphany through Trinity Sunday.
In essence according to Episcopal Church rubrics, you can celebrate saints' days on "green" Sundays when they fall on them. It's perfectly licit in the US. Don't let curmudgeons say otherwise.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
As been stated, any RC parish, chapel or other venue that celebrates the Extraordinary Form still observes Christ the King on the last Sunday in October. My own parish, which is an EF parish staffed by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, will observe the feast this coming Sunday, with a Solemn Mass that includes a Knights of Columbus honor guard.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
This was just published, and seems à propos. Service leaflet for a Procession and High Mass of the Octave Day of St Luke (at a church dedicated to him).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
Anywhere that follows the "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. In Toronto, where I lived until a few years ago, there is a big do (usually Solemn High Mass, Procession, and Benediction, but it can depend on the venue) at a different church each year in the afternoon of the last Sunday of October. It's sung by a travelling schola and supported by the local chapter of Una Voce.
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
In that case, obviously off my beaten track and in places where I don't have occasion to go.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Fr Weber
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
I read that one of the continuing Anglican churches is called the province of Christ the King. Do they particularly celebrate the festival of Christ the King or are the names of the church and the festival not connected ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
Anywhere that follows the "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. In Toronto, where I lived until a few years ago, there is a big do (usually Solemn High Mass, Procession, and Benediction, but it can depend on the venue) at a different church each year in the afternoon of the last Sunday of October. It's sung by a travelling schola and supported by the local chapter of Una Voce.
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
In that case, obviously off my beaten track and in places where I don't have occasion to go.
Yes, there would appear to be just the one continuing Anglican congregation in Surrey.
[ 22. October 2015, 13:07: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I tend to agree. But I think Oscar's got a point. Christians are regarding church attendance less and less as an "obligation" (and Oscar is right to say that this is true across the traditions, certainly in Protestantism) and more and more as an "elective choice", i.e. as one of several potential activities for a Sunday. That s probably indicative of a general societal trend.
But I don't think this has much to do with the OP!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I am at a loss to know where this is still kept on the last Sunday in October.
Anywhere that follows the "extraordinary form" of the Roman Rite. In Toronto, where I lived until a few years ago, there is a big do (usually Solemn High Mass, Procession, and Benediction, but it can depend on the venue) at a different church each year in the afternoon of the last Sunday of October. It's sung by a travelling schola and supported by the local chapter of Una Voce.
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
In that case, obviously off my beaten track and in places where I don't have occasion to go.
Yes, there would appear to be just the one continuing Anglican congregation in Surrey.
Thanks for this link. I used to be aware of the continuing Anglican Church in Thames Ditton, but my travels don't take me that way now. I thought I may have heard something about this place of worship ceasing to operate, due to the priest going out of action without replacement. But the link suggests that it is still up and running. I had not looked up the continuing Anglican Church for a long time.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Perhaps the most significant continuing Anglican house of worship in Britain (since the departure of St Agatha's, Landport, to the ordinariate) is St Katherine's Cathedral parish, which worships in the Lincoln priory.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
...and has a weekly service of Holy Communication (sic) - which I suppose is what the Eucharist is about, in a manner of speaking.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
quote:
originally posted by Fr Weber
Most of the continuing Anglican churches that keep Christ the King do so on the last Sunday of October as well, whether their ceremonial is Tridentine or Dearmerite.
I read that one of the continuing Anglican churches is called the province of Christ the King. Do they particularly celebrate the festival of Christ the King or are the names of the church and the festival not connected ?
The APCK does celebrate the feast for which it is named, but it's no greater an occasion than any other feast. The name of the feast is obviously connected to the name of the jurisdiction, but I'm guessing the late Bishop Morse chose it more as a badge of Catholic sympathies than anything else.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
...and has a weekly service of Holy Communication (sic) - which I suppose is what the Eucharist is about, in a manner of speaking.
Ian J.
Well as you know, the Vicar is a medium of Mass communication....... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
OK I'll get me coat.....
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
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