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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Terms of address for people in ministry
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Does anyone refer to the Cathedral dean as 'Dean firstname?'
It's certainly how we address our Dean in this lower right-hand corner of Wales. 'Father' is limited to the more Catholic clergy, 'Mother' is never used afaik. The only time I have been known as Reverend M is in the local primary school, where all the teachers are 'Miss/Mrs Lastname' (the only male teacher is the head...) and so using Rev Firstname wouldn't fit.
I do have colleagues who call me Padre and Your Reverence (Dad's Army throws a long shadow). I have been called Vicarage, but not by drunken homeless Mancunians. I'm not exactly anonymous on these boards, so I can say that if I were known as Father Lastname there could be a confusion with a TV character from the days when we had proper television shows... (continued p94)
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
In the Church of England it should definitely be: The Reverend John Smith and not Reverend Smith etc. Speaking to him it would be Fr John, Fr Smith, Mr Smith, but not Rev John or Rev Smith!Lots of people have already dealt with this.
What infuriates me is the BBC removing the definite article. So you get Rev John Smith appearing under his face on the news, for example. Sadly, one even sees this approach from people who work/serve in the Church themselves.
Posts: 241 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
What infuriates me is the BBC removing the definite article. So you get Rev John Smith appearing under his face on the news, for example. Sadly, one even sees this approach from people who work/serve in the Church themselves.
I cannot understand this. Surely "Rev" is the absolutely standard abbreviation for "The Reverend"? I don't know anyone who pronounces it any other way. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It's the omission of the definite article, I think, that's objected to.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Incensed
Shipmate
# 2670
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Posted
yes - the lack of definite article in both written and spoken version is a matter of huge distress to me!
Posts: 241 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Actually I object to both: for a start, "Rev" is the abbreviation for the Book of Revelation; second, the lack of definite article is jarring.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I do prefer 'The Revd....' if the abbreviated form is to be used. I think that last d may be a pond thing.
Tangent: The BBC does seem to be getting very sloppy with its use and misuse of ecclesiastical titles, but it's getting sloppy in lots of ways- e.g. hanging participles and a very frequent failure to differentiate between 'may' and 'might'. I had understood that jobs at the BBC were quiet fiercely competed for. If that is so, you'd have thought they could at least recruit a few people who knew how to use the English language properly and conventionally. But then I remember when I used to teach mixed seminar groups at a Russell Group university. If you ever came across a piece of written work that was egregiously sloppy in its grammar, syntax and use of sources, you could be almost certain that it came from one of the students on the journalism course.
[ 13. November 2015, 21:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually I object to both: for a start, "Rev" is the abbreviation for the Book of Revelation; second, the lack of definite article is jarring.
St is an abbreviation for both Saint and street - I can see no reason why Rev cannot be an abbreviation for both Revelation and reverend, just as rev is a common abbreviation for revolution as in revs per minute. A former and very popular chaplain at the school I and later Dlet attended was commonly known as Rev. Previously from the Methodist tradition, he was a muscular Christian. On his retirement, he was presented with a rugby jersey with REV in place of the usual number.
You are on stronger ground with the lack of the definite article.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
One of my acquaintances, very long active in the NDP, addresses one of his clerical fellows as Comrade Priest.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do prefer 'The Revd....' if the abbreviated form is to be used. I think that last d may be a pond thing.
I think it is. I've never seen "Revd" used in an American context.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do prefer 'The Revd....' if the abbreviated form is to be used. I think that last d may be a pond thing.
I think it is. I've never seen "Revd" used in an American context.
In Canada Revd is sometimes seen in Anglican circles (and once was among Presbyterians) and is found in older versions of The Canadian Style.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
One of my acquaintances, very long active in the NDP, addresses one of his clerical fellows as Comrade Priest.
And his bishop?
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
One of my acquaintances, very long active in the NDP, addresses one of his clerical fellows as Comrade Priest.
And his bishop?
I think that his bishop had sympathies toward another party (I believe the Liberals) but in any case was not a party member and so therefore could not rate Comrade.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Cranmer's baggage*
Shipmate
# 4937
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Posted
I'm quite happy to be known by my first name.
I've discovered, to my chagrin, that you can't turn back the tide of popular (mis)usage. I'm scrupulous in using "The Rev'd" in formally addressing others, and on my own stationery. It is an adjective, not a noun! However, it has been adopted as a noun in these parts. Frequently, both in person and in the media, I hear a cleric described as "A reverend". It makes me shudder, but gives me something else to be vexed about when people refer to me as "Rev'd Firstname".
In my current situation things are further complicated because I have an associate priest working with me who shares the same first name. So I am frequently known as "Vicar firstname" or simply "Vicar".
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Eschew obfuscation!
Posts: 729 | From: the antipodes | Registered: Sep 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
In the little non-denom where I grew up, the pastor was "Rev. First Last" in writing (bulletin, sign out front) but always called "Pastor"--usually with no last name. Some fund. folk have problems with "Reverend", because only God should be revered.
I used to go to an Episcopal church with both male and female priests. One of the women wrote in the church bulletin that if you're going to call a male priest "Father", you should call her "Mother". Small problem: I never heard any of the male priests called "Father", only "Reverend". I presume someone had said something, and she felt disrespected.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
TBH, "The Reverend" and "The Very Reverend" have always sounded rather fussy and (sorry!) pompous to me. (FWIW, I also feel that way about "Very Special Agent" in FBI speak.)
Similarly with "Rev. Dr. First Last".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
(FWIW, I also feel that way about "Very Special Agent" in FBI speak.)
OT, but I think it's only Anthony DiNozzo on NCIS who refers to himself that way.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Here's one for Francophone shipmates- is 'Abbé'/ 'M l'Abbé' still used? Who would you use it to, if anyone? Are there differences between different Francophone countries (e.g. France and Quebec)?
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I remember hearing "Monsieur le curé" when visiting an island in the French West Indies.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Monsieur l'abbe' might be used by someone who is a regular or occasional churchgoer and respects the clergy.
Most people would have heard of Abbe'Pierre, a priest who worked with the poor.
Cure' which means parish priest is a word which is used a bit like English 'vicar' more or less to refer to any 'reverend'.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
(FWIW, I also feel that way about "Very Special Agent" in FBI speak.)
OT, but I think it's only Anthony DiNozzo on NCIS who refers to himself that way.
I'd thought so, too, but I've heard it elsewhere.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
There is no doubt that the omission of the 'The' from The Revd is an abomination. I was once most amused to be addressed on a west London street (by a lady asking for directions) as 'Your Reverence'.
I have noticed that the once respected newspaper The daily Telegraph has taken to referring to bishops as 'Mr Smith' (or Mr Ball, more recently), which just shows how ignorance is generally spreading.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
There is no doubt that the omission of the 'The' from The Revd is an abomination. I was once most amused to be addressed on a west London street (by a lady asking for directions) as 'Your Reverence'.
I have noticed that the once respected newspaper The daily Telegraph has taken to referring to bishops as 'Mr Smith' (or Mr Ball, more recently), which just shows how ignorance is generally spreading.
But what do you call a Bishop who has no doctorate? In the good old days before ++Ramsey ended the practice because he couldn't bear to be handing out more Cambridge DD robes than Cambridge did (actually, I think, a piece of academic snobbery not out of character from a man who could be a little more snarky than people nowadays think) diocesans at least got Lambeth DDs with the pointy hat and that was nice and straightforward. But what now? 'Bishop Smith', I suppose. But when the Revd John Smith - correctly referred to as Mr Smith- gets elevateed to the episcopal purple, does it actually cease to be correct to call him 'Mr'? It sounds wrong, certainly, but is it? Is it permissible to refer to Deans and Archdeacons as 'Mr'? I can't remember.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Since one of the major roles of a bishop is to be a teacher or 'doctor', surely the use of Dr as a courtesy title is legitimate - more so than medics who only possess a MB degree. But within church circles Bishop Christian-name, or more formally Bishop Surname, should be acceptable. And in the media, simply surname – that is the Guardian house style outwith the leader columns, though I can't be sure I have seen them refer to a bishop by surname alone. Logical though.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I do prefer 'The Revd....' if the abbreviated form is to be used. I think that last d may be a pond thing.
I think it is. I've never seen "Revd" used in an American context.
When I'm typing the clergy's names in formal circumstances (in posh orders of service, on the back of the Cathedral bulletin, etc.) they get the full war-paint: "The Very Rev'd. [Christianname Surname]"; "The Rev'd. Dr. [Christianname Surname]".
In the ordinary order of service, when they're listed as the celebrant, officiant or preacher, they're "Dean [Christianname Surname]", "Fr. [Christianname Surname]" or "Dr. [Christianname Surname]". When it's the Bishop, he's "Bishop [Christianname Surname]".
In more informal bits of the bulletin, the Dean is usually styled "Dean [Surname]" while the Curate is "Fr. [Christianname]".
In a formal conversational setting I'd address the Curate as "Father" and the Dean as "Mr. Dean"; in informal conversation I address them by their Christian names.
[ 21. December 2015, 23:33: Message edited by: Piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But what do you call a Bishop who has no doctorate?
"My Lord" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Is it permissible to refer to Deans and Archdeacons as 'Mr'? I can't remember.
"Mr Dean" and "Mr Archdeacon" to their faces, and "Dean of X" or "Archdeacon of Y" behind their backs? Where of course X /= Oxford or London.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
"My Lord"? Of course. I should have said 'how do you refer to?'. Mr Dean etc certainly; but having referred to 'The Dean of Barchester', could we then go on to refer to him as 'Mr Arabin'? I don't know.
the Guardian's practice of referring to people by their surnames only is I imagine rooted in some kind of deluded belief that it is the egalitarian thing to do (rather like their practice of not capitalising titles of offices of state and so on, so that 'foreign secretary' could refer equally to Mr Hammond or a Belgian PA). In fact it strikes me as oafish and ungainly; but then I adhere to the belief that in newspapers, pretty much the only people you should refer to by surname only are criminals (and only then really after conviction) and professional sportsmen/women.
If the teaching role of bishops is to be acknowledged by a courtesy title of doctor- an ingenious suggestion- the let it be accompanied by a Lambeth degree- perhaps not a DD for every bishop, but I'm sure a Doctorate in Ministry or some such could be devised, for which the very fact of being chosen and consecraated as a Bishop would be sufficient qualification, by way of recognition of existing learning andd practice.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
The surname thing is an import from media practices in the USA (ie AP style). It is very common to introduce someone in a story by their full name, then refer to them hereafter as surname only. Most/many also do not include any titles, because this is considered to be confusing to readers (the famous AP "alphabet soup") and titles are hard to verify by hard-pressed journalists.
In the UK it used to be the practice to refer to everyone by a shortened version of their title (so the Rt Hon David Cameron was referred to as Mr Cameron or the Prime Minister) - but the fashion in many publications today is also to refer to the person by the surname.
In my small part of Anglicanism, the bishop is often referred to as "Our Bishop, firstname". I'm not sure I've heard anyone talk of the Dean as anything other than "The Dean", but other Canons usually have their full titles printed but are referred to as "Canon firstname". I received an email from one yesterday which was just signed - firstname.
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arse
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Gosh, I am beginning to think the Quakers have got the right idea....
Bishops, I think, should be 'My Lord' to their faces. When the Bishop of Gloucester took her seat in the House of Lords recently, I notice she called herself 'Rachel, Lord Bishop of Gloucster', when taking the oath, though (according to Giles Fraser on Thought for the Day) she declined to be called Right Reverend Father in God.
I think it appropriate to call a bishop Doctor (Doctrix?) regardless of academic degree possessed, for reasons stated. They are teachers, they once all got DDs on appointment. I think they can be considered doctors jure officii, if not jure dignitatis.
What I find most objectionable, maybe even more so than the omission of the definite article from 'The Reverend', is the modern roman Catholic use of Excellency for bishops. this, I think, was an early 20th century innovation. Apostolic Nuncios were 'Your Excellency' and diocesan bishops objected to not having the style. American Roman Catholic bishops seem to love it.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
In England, middle- and upper-class men used to habitually refer to their friends by surname alone (no forename, no "Mr.").
E.g. as in "The Diary of a Nobody": "My clear wife Carrie and I have just been a week in our new house, "The Laurels," Brickfield Terrace, Holloway--a nice six-roomed residence, not counting basement, with a front breakfast-parlour. We have a little front garden; and there is a flight of ten steps up to the front door, which, by-the-by, we keep locked with the chain up. Cummings, Gowing, and our other intimate friends always come to the little side entrance, which saves the servant the trouble of going up to the front door, thereby taking her from her work".
I seem to think that the Vicar here is always referred to by title alone.
[ 22. December 2015, 09:58: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
That's a feature of private education in England, where boys were not referred to by their first names until they were 16.
At my grammar school, which sought to ape private schools, my own classmates did not know or ask my first name until in the latter years of being there.
At my daughter's school, also coincidentally a grammar, boys and girls are all called by their first names - so that fashion seems to have been dispensed with.
On a slightly tangential note, it is interesting to think about the use of initials and titles in cricket teams. It used to be that the "Players" were referred to in one way and the "Gentlemen" another. Reflecting class and private school education, I guess.
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arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
That's a feature of private education in England, where boys were not referred to by their first names until they were 16.
Yes, that was my experience in the late 60s/early 70s, although things got more informal towards the end of that period.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I haven't heard the title 'Excellency' being used for RC bishops in the UK,or certainly at least in the Scottish part of the UK.
'Eccellenza' is the usual form of address for bishops in Italy and is used in a number of other countries in the standard translation of the word.
I can see that as Americans don't have 'Lords'
(loaf guards) it would not be appropriate to address a bishop as 'My Lord'
In my experience in Scotland the title 'my Lord' is rarely used now for a bishop ,be he Catholic or Episcopalian,though archbishops are referred to as 'Your grace'.
Secular newspapers here often refer to bishops or archbishops as 'Mr'. I always assumed that it was simply a part of the way that important/wellknown clerics of the Church of Scotland are referred to.
In Scotland neither Catholic bishops nor indeed Episcopalian bishops have any legal title,their offices are not recognised by the state,though they are not denied either. Most of them, for what it is worth, do have the rights granted to them by the Lord Lyon King of Arms to have armorial bearings.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
That's interesting, I hadn't picked up that there was a difference between Scotland and England.
But I don't think this is about the "legal title", is it? I'm guessing that an Anglican bishop is only a Lord (officially?) if he is sitting as in the Lords Spiritual.
I'd have thought that all of these titles are honorific, rather than a legal title. Maybe there is a difference in the established church in England by law.
Anyway, I think all of these titles are pretty ridiculous. I'd never call anyone "honorable", unless they were, "your worship", which is ridiculous, "the reverend", because I don't consider it to be a given, or "my Lord" because he isn't.
I would only use titles which were actually applicable to the job they were doing - Canon, Dean, Archdeacon, etc. Vicar is the only exception for me, because it sounds silly to call someone Vicar Surname etc. I don't think I've ever used the formal title of any vicar I've ever had. Almost always Rev Surname or simply firstname.
When my daughter was tiny we were struggling to know what to call our vicar, but he insisted on being called by his firstname, even by the tiniest tots. In the end the school compromised and said they should call him Rev firstname.
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arse
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Here's one for Francophone shipmates- is 'Abbé'/ 'M l'Abbé' still used? Who would you use it to, if anyone? Are there differences between different Francophone countries (e.g. France and Quebec)?
I'm not certain of practice in France, but in Canada M le Curé seems to have been preferred over M l'Abbé, but in practice it seems to be replaced by Père Marc or Père Malenfant. I had to address the former Archbishop of Ottawa at an event and he started laughing when I called him Votre Grandeur (your greatness), which our forms and titles book called for. Excellence is generally used more, and in writing Msgr Marc Malenfant-- the francophone press is fairly correct in its usage. The few occasions on which Anglican bishops are referred to in French (generally their existence is ignored), the RC forms are used.
Anglican bishops in Canada were once upon a time universally addressed as My Lord, as such was the practice from colonial times, but this now rarely happens. I was once told that one should distinguish between the bishops of Letters Patent dioceses (founded by the royal will, such as Québec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Montréal, Toronto, Rupertsland, and British Columbia) and those which were not but I do not know if anyone ever observed this distinction.
Current practice is Firstname Lastname, Bishop of Place, then aferward by Bishop Lastname unless the speaker wants to be more folksy, and then calls them Bishop Firstname.
For those interested in heraldic practice (both of you), the Canadian Heraldic Authority accords both RC bishops and Anglican bishops the usual mitres and tasselled hats. I once saw achievements for a rabbi, with cantor's hat, and of a Presbyterian minister, with a soft academic cap with the tassels of a DD, but cannot now find the website.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
In England, middle- and upper-class men used to habitually refer to their friends by surname alone ...
To this day I still think of and refer to my oldest chum by surname. I was the youngest of 3 at the same school so I was XX minimus - so I have some friends who refer to me as that too.
But I'm not so old-fashioned that I expect wives to refer to their husband by surname alone, although I have a cousin who does just that.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In Orthodoxy (at least in my experience in the US) a priest is referred to as "Father" or "Father firstname" both in second person and informally in third person. In third person, formally, a priest is "the Reverend" and an archpriest "the Very Reverend." A bishop is "Your/His Grace," an archbishop is "Your/His Excellence" and a metropolitan "Your/His Eminence." I believe a patriarch is "His Holiness" but since we (in the OCA) don't have one, I can't be sure of that.
What you don't call a priest is "Daddy-O" (or for those having women priests, "Mamacita"). And I don't believe we call anybody "His Nobs."
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
In the little non-denom where I grew up, the pastor was "Rev. First Last" in writing (bulletin, sign out front) but always called "Pastor"--usually with no last name. Some fund. folk have problems with "Reverend", because only God should be revered.
People never take such logic-chopping to its natural conclusion. The Psalm says "the Lord is my shepherd" and not any human person. So "Pastor" is contraindicated. On the other hand Paul claims to be a "father" to his flock, yet these people reject that title. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
yes - the lack of definite article in both written and spoken version is a matter of huge distress to me!
Surely of all the things in this world to be distressed about....
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
Actually, the aged Dragon Lady who used to run our Altar Guild used to refer to me in the third person as "His Nibs Fr Weber." It was, I'm sure, meant mostly affectionately.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
In England, middle- and upper-class men used to habitually refer to their friends by surname alone ...
To this day I still think of and refer to my oldest chum by surname. I was the youngest of 3 at the same school so I was XX minimus - so I have some friends who refer to me as that too.
But I'm not so old-fashioned that I expect wives to refer to their husband by surname alone, although I have a cousin who does just that.
Mrs A refers to me by my surname, and so, therefore, do people who know me through her. One of my best friends and I have always called each other by our surnames, and his children now call me by it too. So when I write birthday cards and so on to them I sign them with my surname, but of course I put my initials in very small letters in front because I do not wish it to be thought that I am trying to pass myself off as a Peer of the Realm.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Baptist Trainfan quote:
In England, middle- and upper-class men used to habitually refer to their friends by surname alone ...
To this day I still think of and refer to my oldest chum by surname. I was the youngest of 3 at the same school so I was XX minimus - so I have some friends who refer to me as that too.
But I'm not so old-fashioned that I expect wives to refer to their husband by surname alone, although I have a cousin who does just that.
Don't you address one another as Mr and Mrs L'organist respectively. After all, the Bennets did. Shouldn't they be a proper guide to behaviour everywhere?. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm guessing that an Anglican bishop is only a Lord (officially?) if he is sitting as in the Lords Spiritual.
You'd think so, but when I worked for the Church Commissioners some 25 years ago, letters to diocesan bishops, whether they were in the Lords or not, were all addressed to e.g. 'The Lord Bishop of Barchester'; suffragans were e.g. 'The Right Reverend the Bishop of Silverbridge'. That was our practice but whether or not it was technically correct, I don't know.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
In TEC, forms of address are all over the place, varying from just Bill or Sally at the bottom of the candle, up through Father Whose-Last-Name-Is-Spike at the peak. In some parts of the country, those parishes with female clergy refer to them as Mother, but other places seem to mumble and fight shy of it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Slightly down the candle one hears most frequently Father First-Name. Moving on down, address is usually Mister X, or Doctor if appropriate. Canons and Archdeacons are sorta rare.
Bishops are universally granted an honorary DD by the seminary from which they graduated at the first opportunity after their consecration. (Earned doctorates among the clergy are thin on the ground.) A bishop friend of mine referred to it as his 'donated divinity.' (The hood only made appearances at Evensong.)
Bishops seem most frequently to be addressed as Bishop Last-Name. (And also in writing, as the English custom of +Joseph See-name-in-Latin didn't make the ocean crossing, except for a few of the spikiest of the hierarchy. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
At my daughter's school, also coincidentally a grammar, boys and girls are all called by their first names - so that fashion seems to have been dispensed with.
I spent some time at a formerly male establishment that was struggling with co-education. Boys were known by their surnames, and girls by their forenames, which always struck me as peculiar.
I assume the situation does not persist, by haven't been back to check.
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Anglican practice here:
Use of Father/Mother First-name in Sydney is, as you might expect, not the style in every parish. In most, just the first name, or perhaps Rector, would be used in conversation with him (as it most certainly in those parishes not be with her). Outside Sydney, Father/Mother would be commonly used formally In daily practice, First-name alone would be the rule.
I think the last person in Australia who would address an Archbishop as Your Grace, or a Bishop as My Lord, died about 4 years ago. In my lifetime it's not been common. It is inappropriate. The usual these days in conversation with one would be simply Archbishop or Bishop. Writing or conversation about one, the common practice would be Archbishop Glenn, Bishop Greg and so forth. Deans the same. The recently retired Bishop Robert Forsyth, the Regional Bishop of South Sydney, was very popular and highly respected throughout the entire diocese. He was usually referred to as Bishop Rob.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I spent some time at a formerly male establishment that was struggling with co-education. Boys were known by their surnames, and girls by their forenames, which always struck me as peculiar.
I assume the situation does not persist, by haven't been back to check.
I agree. That is peculiar. It isn't, though, all that surprising. I can imagine it arising without anyone having thought about it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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