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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Terms of address for people in ministry
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I spent some time at a formerly male establishment that was struggling with co-education. Boys were known by their surnames, and girls by their forenames, which always struck me as peculiar.
I assume the situation does not persist, by haven't been back to check.
I agree. That is peculiar. It isn't, though, all that surprising. I can imagine it arising without anyone having thought about it.
I'm not sure it is so surprising: my boys school had a "sister" school down the road. As I said, most of the school was known by their surname. In casual conversation, boys were known just by their surname, in formal situations it was Mr Surname. At the girls school, firstnames were used and in formal situations it was Miss Firstname Surname.
A joined school with staff from both former schools likely continued with the tradition. Again, this is the situation with my daughter's school also, but everyone now seems to be referred to as Firstname Surname. It wasn't so long ago that they joined, and perhaps the boys school tradition had already depreciated.
[ 23. December 2015, 09:44: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
My school was simply firstname (sometimes firstname surname if there were two people present with the smae firstname and it wasn't otherwise obvious who was being addressed). If Mr/Miss Surname was used it was often accompanied by "report to the headteacher immediately".
Teachers were always addressed Mr/Miss/Mrs Surname, or Sir/Miss.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
In casual conversation, boys were known just by their surname, in formal situations it was Mr Surname.
We never used "Mr", although we did use first names in more casual contexts. It was quite a shock when I went to University for my interview and we were all referred to as "Mr" and "Miss£".
[ 23. December 2015, 10:36: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Yesterday in Glasgow cathedral a special service was held in commemoration of the victims of a horrific accident which took place in the city one year ago.
The cathedral, which is the only pre Reformation cathedral in mainland Scotland still in one piece, more or less as it was before the Reformation, is in the care of Historic Scotland and used by the Presbyterian Church of Scotland.
I quote now from 'The Scotsman' which claims to be 'Scotland's National Newspaper' :
'Yesterday's service was led by the Right Reverend Dr Gregor Duncan, Scottish Episcopal Bishop of Glasgow and Galloway. Mr Duncan said ...........'
Now I was not at the service but I believe that it was 'led' ( a good Presbyterian term) by the cathedral's minister ,Dr Laurence Whitley.
The good bishop gave the sermon.
Again I have no idea of the bishop's academic distinctions , but at one time he was said to be Dr Duncan and then described as 'Mr'Duncan.
Even if the reporter was unable to call him Bishop Duncan you might have thought that she would have written of him as 'Dr' Duncan, that is unless she knows something about him, which I don't.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posed by Forthview:
'Yesterday's service was led by the Right Reverend Dr Gregor Duncan, Scottish Episcopal Bishop of Glasgow and Galloway. Mr Duncan said ...........'
Now I was not at the service but I believe that it was 'led' ( a good Presbyterian term) by the cathedral's minister ,Dr Laurence Whitley.
The good bishop gave the sermon.
Again I have no idea of the bishop's academic distinctions , but at one time he was said to be Dr Duncan and then described as 'Mr'Duncan.
Even if the reporter was unable to call him Bishop Duncan you might have thought that she would have written of him as 'Dr' Duncan, that is unless she knows something about him, which I don't.
Yes, I noticed this similarly in Metro. Bishop Gregor has a PhD from Cambridge, awarded I'm pretty sure before he was ordained. So, yes, Dr Duncan would indeed be correct if one felt unable to use the full ecclesiastical title.
(and yes, we usually refer to him as Bishop Gregor in the third person or just Bishop or Gregor to his face depending how well you know him!)
[ 23. December 2015, 13:38: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I once heard a story, possibly apocryphal:
In England and most of the world, earned doctorates are considered to be more significant than honorary ones.
In Scotland the reverse is true: better to be to be recognised and honoured for your contribution as the "true" doctorate, the other is a scummy thing that someone has tried to earn.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 23. December 2015, 14:39: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I see that the Church Times, which ought to get things right, refers to the PB of TEC in a headline this week as 'Archbishop Curry'. Surely this is incorrect- or is it an accepted if anomalous usage? TEC shipmates please advise!
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
At my daughter's school, also coincidentally a grammar, boys and girls are all called by their first names - so that fashion seems to have been dispensed with.
I spent some time at a formerly male establishment that was struggling with co-education. Boys were known by their surnames, and girls by their forenames, which always struck me as peculiar.
I assume the situation does not persist, by haven't been back to check.
For the sake of equality, i know a maths teacher who decided to call the girls by their surnames too.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
For the sake of equality, i know a maths teacher who decided to call the girls by their surnames too.
I am myself a maths teacher. At our school it is customary to call the students by their first names, but last year in one of my classes there were two students with first names with the same first syllable, and when I would start to say one of their names the other one would get ready to answer, and then be frustrated when it was not them. So they asked me to call them by their last names. Which I did.
[ 23. December 2015, 15:19: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I see that the Church Times, which ought to get things right, refers to the PB of TEC in a headline this week as 'Archbishop Curry'. Surely this is incorrect- or is it an accepted if anomalous usage? TEC shipmates please advise!
Well, his office is certainly analogous to that of Archbishop. But TEC, in its founding, determined not to use that title and created the title of "Presiding Bishop" instead, so that's the one that should be used.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
It is only recently that folks in TEC have begun to title the Presiding Bishop 'Most Reverend,' although 'Right Reverend' is still technically correct. It is a logical extension, as the PB acts as head of the province.
It is also within living memory that the PB has had a primatial cross carried before him/her. And it's a rather paltry item, IMO, looking more like a verge than a cross. YVMV, of course.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Well, his office is certainly analogous to that of Archbishop. But TEC, in its founding, determined not to use that title and created the title of "Presiding Bishop" instead, so that's the one that should be used.
I've always thought "Presiding Bishop" to be deliberately a temporary-sounding title: this is the bishop who is currently presiding; later he or she will no longer be presiding (although of course continuing to be a bishop). Or perhaps it was an attempt to parallel the USA government by having a president, except in this case they wanted to keep the word "bishop" in there. So it's an episcopal form of "president." I suppose the simple "president" title might leave the impression it's open to a non-bishop, which it isn't, currently.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've always thought "Presiding Bishop" to be deliberately a temporary-sounding title: this is the bishop who is currently presiding; later he or she will no longer be presiding (although of course continuing to be a bishop).
Well no bishop presides forever. All of them eventually die. And, once a bishop in Narnia, always a bishop in Narnia.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
but last year in one of my classes there were two students with first names with the same first syllable, and when I would start to say one of their names the other one would get ready to answer, and then be frustrated when it was not them. So they asked me to call them by their last names. Which I did.
When Mrs C taught in a primary school, she had two pairs of children in one class who had the same forenames, and had to go to the fourth letter of their surnames to find a distinction (so no John A and John B for her...)
The odds of that happening twice in one class (of 30-ish kids) have to be pretty slim.
[ 24. December 2015, 04:11: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I am 'the Officer' when referred to by other parties. To my face I am Major Antony or just Major. Formally I am Major Mugford. My full title is, of course, Major Antony Mugford.
I am called Antony in private.
My wife is the same - just with Fiona.
Until about 20 years ago we were officially designated Lieutenant, Captain or Major AND MRS Mugford, even though the MRS was a Lieutenant, etc, in her own right.
Her official designation was Mrs Lieutenant Fiona Mugford, Mrs Lieutenant (Captain or Major). This was because the woman always took on the rank of her husband - even if it meant a demotion.
At that time it was never Rank + Christian name.
To complicate matters, some people were not Mrs Major Smith, but Major Mrs Smith! That happened if Mrs X was a retired Major and then married a non-officer Mr Smith.
If an officer has a doctorate, he is Major Dr Smith but always called Major Smith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Small tangent- reminded of the story of the German refugees who joined the British Army in the Pioneer Corps in WW2- all highly educated academics, lawyers, etc, all punctilious in correctly addressng each other- 'herr doktor professor' and so on. Then one of tthem is promoted and when his friend addresses him as 'herr doktor professor' he reprovingly taps the single stripe on his sleeve: 'no no, if you please now it is herr lance-corporal doktor professor!'
[ 27. December 2015, 14:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Those from Germanic lands/universities were/perhaps still are quite punctilious about their 'herr doktor' address.
A holder of a doctorate from a German (or perhaps Austrian) university emigrated to the US in the 1930s. In his book 'Best Regards to Aida' he tells of frequently being asked for medical advice in NYC until he gave up the use of the title.
BTW it is a great book. IIRC the author is Hans Heinsheimer.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
And Italians. I know Catarella is an effusive caricature, but his insistence on addressing Montalbano as 'Dottore" reflects a general tradition.
Does anybody know why 'Doctor' in anglosaxon lands is most commonly used for medical practitioners, even if they don't possess a doctorate?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does anybody know why 'Doctor' in anglosaxon lands is most commonly used for medical practitioners, even if they don't possess a doctorate?
On this side of the pond, physicians and dentists do possess doctorates.
"Doctor" is commonly used for anyone in academia or in the church with a PhD or other doctorate. (On the other hand, lawyers with a JD are hardly ever addressed as "Doctor.") However, referring to someone as "a doctor" always means a physician/medical doctor.
Which makes me think I see how we got to calling someone "a reverend."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
On this side of the pond, physicians and dentists do possess doctorates.
Or, at least, degrees that are called doctorates. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
On this side of the pond, physicians and dentists do possess doctorates.
Or, at least, degrees that are called doctorates.
True enough.
But they are post-baccalaureate degrees that require more in terms of time and study than a master's degree would, so I'm not inclined to question the appropriateness of calling them doctorates.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does anybody know why 'Doctor' in anglosaxon lands is most commonly used for medical practitioners, even if they don't possess a doctorate?
On this side of the pond, physicians and dentists do possess doctorates.
"Doctor" is commonly used for anyone in academia or in the church with a PhD or other doctorate. (On the other hand, lawyers with a JD are hardly ever addressed as "Doctor.") However, referring to someone as "a doctor" always means a physician/medical doctor.
Which makes me think I see how we got to calling someone "a reverend."
Canada still has a thousand or so Irish & UK immigrant physicians without doctorates-- but even in Ireland my MB BCh BAO friends were called Doctor socially and professionally, but they all definitely enjoyed calling surgeons Mr or Mrs. I tried it here with a thoracic surgeon (Bombay-trained) and he accused me of having gone native when I was in Ireland.
As a bureaucrat at academic meetings I was often addressed as Dr Aleut, only to cause consternation by noting that federal government practice was that public servants only used scientific doctorates. Even PhD ministers ended up being called Mr/Ms while our scientific or medical ministers were Dr Bennett or Dr Philpott.
As far as JDs are concerned, some of us find the degree too embarrassing to speak of. What was wrong with an LLB?
But back to the clergy-- the Irish Times practice was to always use Dr of a bishop-- on the grounds that a chunk of their readership would cheerfully quote Apostolicae Curae if the CoI prelate was referred to as Bishop Brabazon of Kilmacduagh, while another chunk would quote Saepius Officio if he were not. However, nobody minded bishops being called doctor-- usually they were given DDs with a few years of consecration but there were also letters (the Irish Times had the best, although the late Canon Brown criticized a certain dean for being a column of the Irish Times rather than a pillar of the church) suggesting that bishops were doctors by the nature of their teaching office.
The use of reverend in the semi-literate manner now even features in academic work and popular history (a recently-found in public transit bodice ripper about the Empress Josephine tells us how the reverend performed the secret marriage of Caroline Bonaparte). The need for vigilance never ends.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Those from Germanic lands/universities were/perhaps still are quite punctilious about their 'herr doktor' address.
Ditto in Portugal, where, 30 years ago anyway, Ph.Ds still weren't considered to be "proper" doctorates (as used to be the case in Oxbridge).
So a Ph.D. would be called "Doutor" (abbreviated at Dr.) but a Doctor of (say) Science would be addressed as "Senhor Doutor" and always written as "Doutor" in full.
Things may be more relaxed today.
[ 29. December 2015, 08:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In Austria where titles are,I think, still important ,Herr Professor is the ordinary title for a secondary school teacher.If also a Doktor then Herr Doktor is preferred.
The Head teacher of a secondary school may still have the title of Herr Hofrat (adviser to the court) going back to imperial times.
In my time the bishop of Klagenfurt was addressed as Herr Doktor Doktor because he was a doctor of both state and canon law.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As far as JDs are concerned, some of us find the degree too embarrassing to speak of. What was wrong with an LLB?
Two baccalaureate degrees back-to-back? Injury to pride? What I find humorous is that the "advanced" degree after a JD is an LLM.
JDs have been the norm in the US long enough that there are relatively few practicing LLBs left. But I've only known one JD who wanted to be addressed as "Dr.," and only a handful who put "JD" after their names. The rest of us find that laughable.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
JDs have been the norm in the US long enough that there are relatively few practicing LLBs left. But I've only known one JD who wanted to be addressed as "Dr.," and only a handful who put "JD" after their names. The rest of us find that laughable.
The main use of putting JD after your name seems to be if you haven't passed the bar, and are working in a role where you don't need to but your legal training is still relevant.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
As far as JDs are concerned, some of us find the degree too embarrassing to speak of. What was wrong with an LLB?
Two baccalaureate degrees back-to-back? Injury to pride? What I find humorous is that the "advanced" degree after a JD is an LLM.
JDs have been the norm in the US long enough that there are relatively few practicing LLBs left. But I've only known one JD who wanted to be addressed as "Dr.," and only a handful who put "JD" after their names. The rest of us find that laughable.
When I lived in the US, much merriment was caused by a man with a JD who was, after serving in a post in the George W Bush White House, appointed President of a small Catholic college, and wished, on the strength of his JD, to be called 'Doctor'.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
]When I lived in the US, much merriment was caused by a man with a JD who was, after serving in a post in the George W Bush White House, appointed President of a small Catholic college, and wished, on the strength of his JD, to be called 'Doctor'.
The lawyers I've known of who put "JD" after their names have been in academia (though not in law schools), and it seemed they felt the need to keep up with their colleagues withs PhDs and the like. Odd, but at least they never asked to be called "Doctor."
I've known one practicing attorney who did want to be addressed as "Doctor." Unfortunately, his legal skills fell far short of his self-image.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
The relatively new dean for religious life at my nearby American non-denominational university had/has been having trouble finding a reasonable title (or at least a good handful have been seen). Qualifications:
1. Anglican/Episcopal priest (ordained in England but works in the US).
2. Former dean of a US Episcopal Cathedral
3. Ph.D. in history
4. Current status is as a university dean (for religious life) and professor in the religious studies at the same university.
So what would be the appropriate title and terms of address especially given the university is non-denominational (the dean for religious life need not be Christian)?
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spinner of webs
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
]When I lived in the US, much merriment was caused by a man with a JD who was, after serving in a post in the George W Bush White House, appointed President of a small Catholic college, and wished, on the strength of his JD, to be called 'Doctor'.
The lawyers I've known of who put "JD" after their names have been in academia (though not in law schools), and it seemed they felt the need to keep up with their colleagues withs PhDs and the like. Odd, but at least they never asked to be called "Doctor."
I've known one practicing attorney who did want to be addressed as "Doctor." Unfortunately, his legal skills fell far short of his self-image.
Of course in Italy, the holder of any university degree is Dottore. So a lawyer is Dott. n or m. A PhD is Dottore di Ricerca
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The relatively new dean for religious life at my nearby American non-denominational university had/has been having trouble finding a reasonable title (or at least a good handful have been seen). Qualifications:
1. Anglican/Episcopal priest (ordained in England but works in the US).
2. Former dean of a US Episcopal Cathedral
3. Ph.D. in history
4. Current status is as a university dean (for religious life) and professor in the religious studies at the same university.
So what would be the appropriate title and terms of address especially given the university is non-denominational (the dean for religious life need not be Christian)?
A straightforward response is difficult without knowing more detail, but I would suggest that if a dean for religious life (a tangent on this designation is possible...) is primarily pastoral in role, then Dean X (Mr Dean is likely too 19c/20c) or Fr/women equivalent X in speech, and in writing Revd Firstname Lastname, Dean for Religious Life. If they were i/c of an ecclesiastical establishment of several chaplains, one could argue for Very Revd, but as a non-ecclesial office, then not. Unless the job is scholarly in nature, forget the Dr or Prof unless in academic committees, where the absence of Dr leaves him troglodytic in status.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I'd have thought The Revd Professor would be all you need. In British usage, academic deans (including deans of chapel) are IME sometimes addressed as 'Dean' and are certainly referred to as 'The Dean' but it's not a title as such, just a job title.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Interesting. So former cathedral deans don't retain 'the very reverend'? I note the dean has dropped to just
The Reverend Professor firstname lastname, Dean for Religious Life
(less formally as Dean firstname lastname [they already have another Dean with the same lastname])
though started her tenure with 'the very reverend' which was highly confusing to many who were unfamiliar with that term. On her academic department web page, it is just "Professor firstname lastname" (which fits with the university's practice for other academic officers in their roles as professors).
As for 'Dean for Religious Life', originally the university church had a pastor, the first one lasted about 4 months before apparently clashing with the university founder (no one was really willing to say what happened exactly though the choir was mentioned by one side and denied by the other) and was never replaced. His second in command continued to be in charge for the next 33 years before retiring and was referred to as 'University Chaplain'. At some point the title became 'Dean of the Chapel' (or 'Dean of the Church', there seems to have been no real consistency). In the 1990s a rabbi was hired as an associate dean and it was felt that the title should change to reflect that the dean and the associate deans were responsible for all religious life on campus and not just those who used the church.
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spinner of webs
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Perhaps one could refer to her as the Abbess or the Chapel Lama. This would avoid so many complications.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Here's one for Francophone shipmates- is 'Abbé'/ 'M l'Abbé' still used? Who would you use it to, if anyone? Are there differences between different Francophone countries (e.g. France and Quebec)?
I'm not certain of practice in France, but in Canada M le Curé seems to have been preferred over M l'Abbé, but in practice it seems to be replaced by Père Marc or Père Malenfant. I had to address the former Archbishop of Ottawa at an event and he started laughing when I called him Votre Grandeur (your greatness), which our forms and titles book called for. Excellence is generally used more, and in writing Msgr Marc Malenfant-- the francophone press is fairly correct in its usage. The few occasions on which Anglican bishops are referred to in French (generally their existence is ignored), the RC forms are used.
Anglican bishops in Canada were once upon a time universally addressed as My Lord, as such was the practice from colonial times, but this now rarely happens. I was once told that one should distinguish between the bishops of Letters Patent dioceses (founded by the royal will, such as Québec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Montréal, Toronto, Rupertsland, and British Columbia) and those which were not but I do not know if anyone ever observed this distinction.
Current practice is Firstname Lastname, Bishop of Place, then aferward by Bishop Lastname unless the speaker wants to be more folksy, and then calls them Bishop Firstname.
For those interested in heraldic practice (both of you), the Canadian Heraldic Authority accords both RC bishops and Anglican bishops the usual mitres and tasselled hats. I once saw achievements for a rabbi, with cantor's hat, and of a Presbyterian minister, with a soft academic cap with the tassels of a DD, but cannot now find the website.
I know only that recent Anglican bishops of Montréal (of whatever gender) have been Mgr in French. Abbé seems to be favoured by the traditionalist FSSP parish in Ottawa. "Père" is properly for a religious priest.
[ 30. December 2015, 06:59: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Interesting, thank you. I had thought that Abbe might be quite a conservative usage.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Mgr + name of bishop used to be very common for RC bishops in the UK.Sometimes also spelled as Msgr or even occasionally. as Mons,which is the usual Italian abbreviation for Monsignor.
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
Your dean would probably be, from my experience with academic titles and US Episcopal etiquette, most formally "The Very Reverend Doctor Johanna Cerva, Dean for Religious Life and Professor of Religious Studies."
Whether her present deanship confers Very Reverend status is a matter of debate (it's similar in some ways to both cathedral and seminary deanships, but also to secular academic deanships which typically wouldn't), but I've seen a number of cathedral and rural/urban deans continue to use the title (and in certain cases a monsignor's cassock) when their time is up so I'd consider her justified in using it if desired. Of course this can be condensed depending on the desired emphasis - since it's a ministerial appointment I wouldn't lose The Reverend, but Very and Doctor are both optional and using both at once might be a bit overwhelming. Whether to use Dean and Professor together depends on the extent to which a dean identifies with the department in which he or she holds an appointment (and typically tenure); I've known a lot of academic administrators who will continue to assert Professor, especially if they are fully promoted and tenured, to emphasize their status as members of the faculty.
The most appropriate formal spoken address is Dean Cerva. All college and university deans are properly so addressed, and I have a hard time imagining another title that would take absolute precedence over it (maybe Your Holiness). Dr. Cerva is not incorrect but is more likely to be seen off campus, particularly by those uncomfortable with religious titles or in situations where they don't seem appropriate. As the person in question is an Anglican priest, Mother is an appropriate title particularly in the context of pastoral relationships, but it doesn't take precedence over Dean in an academic context.
The Reverend Professor is an interesting choice of written title, but one that makes a lot of sense in respecting her dual vocation as priest and scholar. I know that some universities tend to prefer Professor as the title for all professors regardless of degree held since not all have a doctorate (in fine arts, architecture, and my own library science, the master's degree is ordinarily terminal and tenurable, and in other fields such as journalism, professional experience plus an MA can suffice), and under the theory that the job is more prestigious than the degree required to get it.
Of course, religious titles especially are quite nebulous. I know a retired Episcopal deacon whom everyone at church calls Father. He was ordained relatively early in the recent history of the permanent diaconate and I presume the title came about by Orthodox analogy.
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
I know a retired Episcopal deacon whom everyone at church calls Father. He was ordained relatively early in the recent history of the permanent diaconate and I presume the title came about by Orthodox analogy.
In my experience of UK Orthodox priests are Father Costas, deacons are Deacon Costas and quite right too.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
I couldn't believe my ears when I heard a reporter on the 8 am National news programme this morning speak of 'an Anglican reverend' who had given his opinion on standardising the date of Easter.
I've just sent them an explanation of the usage of 'Reverend' alone as a term of address (or reference in this case) being jocular, informal, most often used by people who have little acquaintance with the church and the formality of its titles. I suggested that she could have spoken of 'an Anglican clergyman/spokesman/vicar''
Since the news item then referred to 'Reverend Whatever' I added a bit about why it should have been 'the Reverend Mr Whatever'.
They may not know what an adjective is.
GG
[ 17. January 2016, 19:19: Message edited by: Galloping Granny ]
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
GG - I wish you had contributed to this thread where the same issue came up.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
GG - I wish you had contributed to this thread where the same issue came up.
Of course it has been thoroughly thrashed out here, though I didn't have time to read the lot and see whether the solecism of referring to a clergyman as 'a reverend' had been recorded. I was too staggered to do anything but sit down and express my horror in an email to National Radio.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
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