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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purple
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
We're coming into the Advent season with its purple colours which are meant to represent penitence, as in Lent, so I understand. I have also been told that purple represents spirituality, as well as royalty.
Sometimes purple altar frontals are used for funerals, and so I also associate purple with sadness. Am I mistaken?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
This is why I much prefer blue for Advent -- so it doesn't seem like a "mini-Lent."
We use white for funerals to celebrate the Resurrection.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I don't agree. Advent is a season of Preparation. So it is a sort of Lent. I suppose it ought really to be a time of fasting, but try that on one's family and wait for the flying plates.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This is why I much prefer blue for Advent -- so it doesn't seem like a "mini-Lent."
We use white for funerals to celebrate the Resurrection.
Deep blue is appropriate under Sarum.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
I think that "Sarum blue" for Advent is more a marketing scheme of vestment merchants than anything else. When I was a child, I recall thatblue was used for Marian feasts. Violet for Advent is good.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
Posts: 216 | From: Indiana USA | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Deep blue for Advent (with rose on the third Sunday), Black for funerals.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
We have white, for Easter and also weddings and funerals. Blue for Advent, a tapestry for all other times.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We have purple for Advent and Lent. Rose for Rose Sunday would be very nice, but the cost could not be justified. It would be different were there a set handed down over decades. White of funerals (and of course Christmas, Easter and festivals - last Sunday being one.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
My understanding is that historically, Advent Purple differed from Lent Purple in that it was a lighter shade. Eventually a lighter shade of purple was interpreted to be blue.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My understanding is that historically, Advent Purple differed from Lent Purple in that it was a lighter shade. Eventually a lighter shade of purple was interpreted to be blue.
Indeed. In the Church the purple of Advent is sometimes trimmed or highlighted with gold.
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Even more so than I was before
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Purple (with gold) for Sundays, except for Advent 3, when our beautiful rose-pink chasuble gets an outing. No matching dalmatic, though, so acting Deacon wears purple (looks awful agin the pink ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ).
We also have a nice antique Sarum blue chasuble, which comes out on weekdays!
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At our church instead of doing it with the vestments we do it with the Advent candles on the Advent wreath. Three purples and one pink one, like these. Originally we were working with four white ones, but then we got a rector who insisted that three purples and a pink were the right way to go.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wm Dewy:
I think that "Sarum blue" for Advent is more a marketing scheme of vestment merchants than anything else. When I was a child, I recall thatblue was used for Marian feasts. Violet for Advent is good.
No - because churches that used blue for Advent used lenten array (unbleached linen) for lent - so NOT purple.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
This article argues that Sarum Blue is not justified by the historical evidence.
My opinion is that if you want to distinguish the seasons of Advent and Lent with different colors, then fine (for you, I mean--I'm content with the Tridentine color scheme, including black for funerals). But to appeal to "Sarum Use" for your innovation just doesn't work, because it's pretty clear that different places within the provinces of Canterbury and York used different colors for Advent. Just admit that you're tinkering because you want to tinker.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
churches that used blue for Advent used lenten array (unbleached linen) for lent - so NOT purple.
Um, yes. Simply more anecdotal evidence that some parishes have been sold a bill of goods (and a couple bolts of cloth) by the merchants. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
This article argues that Sarum Blue is not justified by the historical evidence.
My opinion is that if you want to distinguish the seasons of Advent and Lent with different colors, then fine (for you, I mean--I'm content with the Tridentine color scheme, including black for funerals). But to appeal to "Sarum Use" for your innovation just doesn't work, because it's pretty clear that different places within the provinces of Canterbury and York used different colors for Advent. Just admit that you're tinkering because you want to tinker.
The article is probably right - St. Percy did invent the Bristish Museum Religion.
However, different cultures react to different colours differently. While white is a colour of joy in thr West, it's a colour or mourning in India.
I think blue strikes the right note of expectation in Advent and that unbleacheds linen is more penitential than purple.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Local Custom is a useful excuse..... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Not only do we have the choice of purple or Sarum blue for Advent, but we also have a beautiful High Mass set for Marian festivals - in what I can best describe as Kingfisher or Azure blue! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
For us it is deep, deep blue for Advent - with a stylized Southern Cross in metallic silver. In lent we have frontal etc. in deep purple with a cross of nails and crown of thorns on the frontal and vestments.
and yes, we do have a High Mass set for Marian Festivals - glorious white with Marian blue trims and heavily embroidered with her monogram and lilies.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
The concept of preparation is intriguing. What are we preparing for? If the joy of Jesus's coming (1st or second) why wouldn't the appropriate color be one conveying joyful anticipation?
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The concept of preparation is intriguing. What are we preparing for? If the joy of Jesus's coming (1st or second) why wouldn't the appropriate color be one conveying joyful anticipation?
That is what rose is for on the third Sunday.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My understanding is that historically, Advent Purple differed from Lent Purple in that it was a lighter shade. Eventually a lighter shade of purple was interpreted to be blue.
That's another canard floated by the church suppliers. At one point in the 1970s the liturgy committee of the bishops' conference even bought into it, and then blue started surfacing, too. Both notions were eventually put out to pasture. The traditional color is actually violet, rather than purple, and this is what the rubrics call for. There has been some attempt in recent decades to play down the penitential aspects of advent, but historically, while not as somber as lent, it was still a penitential period, which is why marriages were not celebrated. Penance services are a common feature of the season.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The concept of preparation is intriguing. What are we preparing for? If the joy of Jesus's coming (1st or second) why wouldn't the appropriate color be one conveying joyful anticipation?
That is what rose is for on the third Sunday.
Fr Leslie Arnold of SS Mary & John Oxford used to put on the rose vestments on 17th December and keep them on until Christmas, on the grounds that the joyful anticipation wasn't just a brief flicker on Advent 3. But as well as the High Mass set he'd had cobbled up from materials bought in the street markets of Leeds (pink and dusky grey, "like the morning clouds"), he had several rather nice low mass sets.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Belle Ringer quote:
The concept of preparation is intriguing. What are we preparing for? If the joy of Jesus's coming (1st or second) why wouldn't the appropriate color be one conveying joyful anticipation?
I'm amazed you ask that question. On one level Advent is a time of anticipation of the birth of the messiah. But if you look at messianic passages in the OT you'll see that the coming of the messiah is associated with the end of time and so there is also the theme of preparing for the last judgement. That is why the tradition is that Advent is a time of penitence when we make ourselves ready for the end time through fasting and prayer, confession and repentance. And since it is a time of penitence we wear appropriate colours to signify the season as such.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Belle Ringer quote:
The concept of preparation is intriguing. What are we preparing for? If the joy of Jesus's coming (1st or second) why wouldn't the appropriate color be one conveying joyful anticipation?
I'm amazed you ask that question. On one level Advent is a time of anticipation of the birth of the messiah. But if you look at messianic passages in the OT you'll see that the coming of the messiah is associated with the end of time and so there is also the theme of preparing for the last judgement. That is why the tradition is that Advent is a time of penitence when we make ourselves ready for the end time through fasting and prayer, confession and repentance. And since it is a time of penitence we wear appropriate colours to signify the season as such.
While I agree with this, I'd add to it. In Advent we aren't preparing for Jesus's first coming, his birth. That has already happened. We are preparing to celebrate and enter into the mystery of the Incarnation. We prepare for that by self-examination, confession and repentance. And yes, traditionally, by fasting.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I'm not terribly fussed about the line between purple and dark blue, which I suspect might have been fuzzier before the advent of chemical dyes. There is a gorgeous antique (possibly Comper but I can't recall) blue set at St Martin-in-the-Fields in Toronto. Blue Advent vestments are definitely different from Marian blue. I perhaps wouldn't rush to acquire one if I were a cleric serving somewhere that didn't have them. And the rationale about it being penitential is a bit naff. Dark blue is an old English colour for requiems (and don't forget the Dies irae was originally an Advent sequence).
The Benedictines of Christminster (ROCOR Western Rite) use blue for Advent outwith Rose Sunday, as does St Ignatius of Antioch.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Blue might be a modern liturgical innovation, like proclaiming the Gospel from the middle of the Nave, but it can be argued that it's a good modern liturgical innovation. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Blue strikes me as a bit extravagant for only four Sundays, but I can see a certain sense in it.
What utterly sets my teeth on edge - I wish I was a holier person - is the C of E's affectation for red between All Saints and Advent with Christ the King the same colour (red) as for a non festal day in the ersatz season.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
This year, we've used red for the soi-disant Kingdom Season, though using white for Christ the King. Advent purple tomorrow, of course, with maybe an outing for Sarum blue during the week.....
......and somehow I
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
This year, we've been in red for the soi-disant Kingdom Season, though using white for Christ the King. Advent purple tomorrow, of course, with maybe an outing for Sarum blue during the week.....
......though somehow I feel that it really doesn't matter all that much to the Lord who made Heaven and Earth, the Sea, and all that in them is.....
.......but it might to the Faithful Few (aka The Usual Suspects), in which case a brief explanation of the colours (and Local Usage) might be helpful.
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Humble apologies for cocked-up post......it's been a loooong day.......
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
......though somehow I feel that it really doesn't matter all that much to the Lord who made Heaven and Earth, the Sea, and all that in them is.....
And here I was picturing all of the angels spending today decking out Heaven in the proper-colored hangings for Advent (and setting out the wreath, as well).
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
What utterly sets my teeth on edge - I wish I was a holier person - is the C of E's affectation for red between All Saints and Advent with Christ the King the same colour (red) as for a non festal day in the ersatz season.
It's a liturgical wank that certain pretentious elements of the self righteous set down under downunda have adopted with glee ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Maybe - but w**nking can be quite satisfying....(or so I am told),
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Yes - singing the gospel facing north east was very odd.
What!!? Who does/did that? That's pointing away from the congregation. Nobody would be able to hear.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
......though somehow I feel that it really doesn't matter all that much to the Lord who made Heaven and Earth, the Sea, and all that in them is.....
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
IIRC, the Gospel was proclaimed facing north (not sure about north-east), coz that's where the heathens were..... ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Entirely unpenitential magenta and gold does duty for such things in circles around here. Makes the eyes bleed. Would far rather have ink blue, which I believe is the right shade.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
IIRC, the Gospel was proclaimed facing north (not sure about north-east), coz that's where the heathens were.....
Were they marched in and sat there so that they could hear it - presumably in special pews marked 'heathen', 'unclean' or 'damned' just in case they didn't get the point? Or perhaps they were made to sit on the floor?
Leo have you ever actually seen this? Can you enlighten us?
[ 28. November 2015, 19:49: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Blue strikes me as a bit extravagant for only four Sundays, but I can see a certain sense in it.
What utterly sets my teeth on edge - I wish I was a holier person - is the C of E's affectation for red between All Saints and Advent with Christ the King the same colour (red) as for a non festal day in the ersatz season.
Agreed. Sundays after Trinity run up until Advent.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Blue might be a modern liturgical innovation, like proclaiming the Gospel from the middle of the Nave, but it can be argued that it's a good modern liturgical innovation.
As a judge once said to my opponent, anything's arguable, but the point must be to ask if it is a good argument. What is the good argument for blue, unless you're in the business of selling vestments, frontals and so forth?
Enoch, the heathens lived in the north - Scandinavians, Russians, the Germanic tribes and so forth. It was also the source of icy winter blizzards. The Gospel was proclaimed facing north in the hope of educating them. OTOH, you could say that they lived in the south as well, with the heathen Nubians and so forth, as well as the origin of the hot dry winds which parched the cops and killed sheep. No-one seems to have tried this for some reason.
[ 28. November 2015, 20:52: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
So I guess here in the U.S. we'd be aiming at those heathen Canadians...
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... Enoch, the heathens lived in the north - Scandinavians, Russians, the Germanic tribes and so forth. It was also the source of icy winter blizzards. The Gospel was proclaimed facing north in the hope of educating them. OTOH, you could say that they lived in the south as well, with the heathen Nubians and so forth, as well as the origin of the hot dry winds which parched the cops and killed sheep. No-one seems to have tried this for some reason.
So it was only being proclaimed symbolically to an empty space, to heathens who weren't actually there to hear it?
There are times when I feel I have a blind spot when it comes to some sorts of symbolism. There are other times when I feel I've got a point.
It's very, very like the people I've mentioned on the Lord's Prayer thread who were preaching in an empty market place, who, indeed had chosen the emptiest and safest time to do so.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It was purely symbolic, just as facing east for the Creed was and still is. It's a long way east from here to Jerusalem.
[ 29. November 2015, 08:58: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
It was purely symbolic, just as facing east for the Creed was and still is. It's a long way east from here to Jerusalem.
But it's not Jerusalem that's being faced when the Creed is said. It's the East itself, where the sun rises and where (symbolically, at least) Christ is expected to return. It derives from the baptismal rite,when the renunciations were made facing west (toward the darkness of the setting sun) and then the Apostle's Creed was said facing east.
Whether the East is further away or closer than Jerusalem, or both simultaneously, I'll leave for others to consider.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
IIRC, the Gospel was proclaimed facing north (not sure about north-east), coz that's where the heathens were.....
Were they marched in and sat there so that they could hear it - presumably in special pews marked 'heathen', 'unclean' or 'damned' just in case they didn't get the point? Or perhaps they were made to sit on the floor?
Leo have you ever actually seen this? Can you enlighten us?
I remember reading that the Visigoths and similar pagans who were catechumens were seated on the north side of the church in some places, giving rise to the practice (also justified by Jeremiah 3.12). Jungmann writes that it was so that the deacon did not have to face the women's side of the congregation in the very early western church, an explanation which I have never heard before--- perhaps they just should have put the gospeller on a turntable (although that might excite some liturgical committees to an unimaginable level).
It is still the custom in some places (as it was in the ancient synagogue) that women and men sat separately, so this might be a better explanation than the northern pagan theme, although half a century ago it was put to me with great warmth by the late Archdeacon Bradley, a big fan of the Venerable Bede and that period.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Definitely purple, and the Kyries sung instead of the Gloria. Advent candles all in white.
I rather like Christmas Decorations in purple too, not sure what the purists would think of that!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Leo have you ever actually seen this? Can you enlighten us?
Yes - always in my teens before the changes prompted by Vatican 2.
At a low mass, the book was moved during the gradual from south to north end and the priest said the gospel facing the book.
At a solemn mass, it was processed to to=he north end of the sanctuary.
As for audibilitty, that's why it was always sung at any mass other than a low mass.
As for the reasons/symbolism, others have already answered that.
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Pomona
Shipmate
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
This is why I much prefer blue for Advent -- so it doesn't seem like a "mini-Lent."
We use white for funerals to celebrate the Resurrection.
But Advent IS a mini Lent. It is a penitential season and traditionally involves fasting in the run up to Christmas - it's why people eat fish on Christmas Eve.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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