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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2954: St James' Cathedral, Toronto
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Nice to see a report on a church I'm well familiar with. MaRStD rightly notes that the churchmanship of the cathedral is not "way up the candle." In fact, it's a historically evangelical stronghold which turned moderate-Catholic under Bishop Hugh Stiff's tenure as Dean of Toronto in the 1970s. The reviewer is equally astute that it looks like a large parish church, and indeed it is, like most Canadian Anglican cathedrals.
Originally its low-church (and well-heeled) faithful took less than kindly to serving as de facto cathedral for Toronto's often Tractarian bishops. An attempt was made to rectify this by creating an extra-diocesan cathedral but the money ran out. The unfinished church is now the even more modest-looking chapel of an Anglican boys' day school.
The outright ban on intinction is perhaps unusual in the Communion at large but it is (or was when I lived there) diocesan policy in Toronto, and similar notices can be found in the service leaflets of other parishes in the diocese.
Prof. Hauerwas was this year's Snell Lecturer, a series of addresses named for the late Bishop George Snell. He gave three talks in the course of that weekend, one in the cathedral hall, the Snell Sermon at Mass on Advent I (which the reviewer heard and which is available for now in mp3 format here), and a final lecture at Wycliffe College.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I get the strangest feeling that the reviewer knows nothing about the Anglican CHurch in Canada, and didn't bother to find out anything. In a sense that's fair...a mystery report is about how one reacts to what is on offer. In another, it's unsettling, because were I to go through the report point by point, there are many, many things misunderstood.
Knopwood has dealt with a number of points, and I'm going to add just one. It has in fact nothing to do with the review of liturgy but with insufficient research. The reviewer quite rightly points out that from the Cathedral's location at the corner of Church and King (how appropriate for a cathedral...well the street was named for it so...) one can have either gluttony catered for or sex. The reviewer refers to the ladies of the streets of the area ... but omits to notice that Church Street is at the very heart of the Gay Village, so it's not just heterosexual sin catered for near the cathedral.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
An attempt was made to rectify this by creating an extra-diocesan cathedral but the money ran out.
Derp. I meant "extra-parochial" of course ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I note in John Holding's post his assertion that the reviewer did not know much about the ACoC and a close look through the report sustains this. However, it is quite possible that the reviewer may well be a member of the ACoC, as I have found that many Anglicans have only the narrowest experiences of church life and practice.
His note on the precise flavour of the neighbourhood's depravity is well-taken, just in case any shipmates want to walk on the wild side. An acquaintance of mine, a sessional lecturer at the University of Toronto, in the course of her research prepared a brothel atlas of Toronto over the course of her doctorate, and it is the parishioners of Saint Simon the Apostle and of Saint Peter's who are most likely to be on the game. Sadly, neither parish has morning and evening prayer said daily, but the Cathedral does.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The reporter says that he has Calvinist leanings but I believe he's Episcopalian so far as I know.
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
were I to go through the report point by point, there are many, many things misunderstood.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I note in John Holding's post his assertion that the reviewer did not know much about the ACoC and a close look through the report sustains this.
I wonder if you both would point out exactly what it is that, judging from the report, the reporter seems not to understand. The reporter does admit that he is not up on Canadian Anglican churchmanship.
We get very few reports from Canada. If visitors are going to be quizzed on their knowledge of Anglican customs as practiced in Canada, I can understand why.
[ 18. December 2015, 16:35: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
His note on the precise flavour of the neighbourhood's depravity is well-taken, just in case any shipmates want to walk on the wild side. An acquaintance of mine, a sessional lecturer at the University of Toronto, in the course of her research prepared a brothel atlas of Toronto over the course of her doctorate, and it is the parishioners of Saint Simon the Apostle and of Saint Peter's who are most likely to be on the game. Sadly, neither parish has morning and evening prayer said daily, but the Cathedral does.
St Simon's is, however, one of the last places in the city with proper Sung Mattins once a month (along with St Olave's, Swansea).
For its part, St Peter's used to, at least, observe the Sunday nearest the feast of SS. Crispin and Crispinian as "Leather Sunday"!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The reporter says that he has Calvinist leanings but I believe he's Episcopalian so far as I know.
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
were I to go through the report point by point, there are many, many things misunderstood.
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I note in John Holding's post his assertion that the reviewer did not know much about the ACoC and a close look through the report sustains this.
I wonder if you both would point out exactly what it is that, judging from the report, the reporter seems not to understand. The reporter does admit that he is not up on Canadian Anglican churchmanship.
We get very few reports from Canada. If visitors are going to be quizzed on their knowledge of Anglican customs as practiced in Canada, I can understand why.
It's only an issue because the reviewer seemed to go out of his/her way to comment on all the things that seemed odd or bizarre, most of which are perfectly normal (if not necessarily general) in the Anglican Church of Canada. And the matters are not about churchmanship particularly.
It is, for example, perfectly ordinary for a church in Canada to be oriented other than eastwards...to make a point of commenting on the "northward" orientation of pews (that is, towards the liturgical east end, where the altar lives) seems to me odd. I mean, how horrid, a church that is not oriented eastwards and where the pews face the altar, not the side wall as they ought if facing east.
Frankly, it is as if the reviewer found that things were not like they were at home -- which is fair enough -- and decided that they were therefore odd, or peculiar and needed to be pointed out as things that would not be done in really proper places (like his/her own, presumably).
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I almost edited out the remarks about geographical orientation. I can't speak for Canada, but I find that a large number of churches in the USA are not geographically oriented east-west, but no one seems to think much of it. Liturgical east is liturgical east regardless of geographical orientation.
It didn't seem to me that the reporter was being particularly critical of things he found different from what he was accustomed to -- he was merely pointing out that they were different. But he is certainly at liberty to like or not like them as he chooses.
Then again, I may be less sensitive to innuendo than others.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I didn't think that the writer was being critical, but that they pointed out as different that which is fairly typical up here. I just assumed that they only knew a small circle of Anglicanism-- this is not rare in Canada, as for many years dioceses followed their own ways, and there was little interchange of clergy or movement. If the writer was from the US, perhaps they were discovering one of our minor cultural differences.
One of the difficulties of MW-ing in Canada is that one is easily outed-- I have three instances of being spotted by clerics on account of my interest in the art and windows of the place. They happily wanted to know if I was a Mystery Worshipper and were clearly followers of the Ship's reporting. A certain cathedral dean gave me a book on the windows of the place and wanted to make sure that some points were covered in my report; in these three cases I felt uncomfortable about reporting.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Even I;ve hear of Stanley Hauwerwas as not some layman but a particularly distinguished and internationally acclaimed theologian.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't know the Anglican Church of Canada (other than the novels of Robertson Davies which I take are not typical) but I didn't think it particularly odd - it gave a fair account.
The MW hasn't quite got the hang of catholic ritual, but a lot of people don't. For example he comments he would expect genuflecting at the creed if they "were high up the candle". If they were really high up the candle and followed Rome, they would only genuflect at Christmas and the Annunciation.
The main thing he commented on was the intrusiveness of the sidesman, for which he has my sympathy,
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Even I;ve hear of Stanley Hauwerwas as not some layman but a particularly distinguished and internationally acclaimed theologian.
Strictly speaking, I think Stanley is lay because he is not ordained. His background is in the Southern Baptists, but his extensive academic theological corpus is widely seen as being influenced by anabaptist thought. I think I am correct in thinking he is a communicant in the Episcopal church, although I'm not sure how that works given he now has a Professorship at the University of Aberdeen.
All of that said, he is a very academic scholar - there is no particular reason why a person visiting this Cathedral would be expected to be aware of him. Either the MW missed the introduction or the information provided assumed rather a lot of the congregation.
[ 19. December 2015, 10:00: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Also possibly worth saying that Hauwerwas has a particularly odd delivery (with various forms of vocal ticks), and probably not one which is particularly suitable for a short 15 minute sermon in church. He is much more known for long academic lectures.
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arse
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If they were really high up the candle and followed Rome, they would only genuflect at Christmas and the Annunciation.
Canadian Anglican parishes who take their cues closely from Rome tend to follow the Rome of ca. 1955: Novus Ordo Anglo-Catholicism on the English model is well nigh unknown here. Either way, St James' is not exactly spiky and I would expect bowing would be the done thing there in that instance.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Novus Ordo Anglo-Catholicism on the English model is well nigh unknown here.
Which is what I’ve known as the catholic ideal in England for the past forty years. It is why I’m very wary of talking as thought there were strict gradations “up the candle”. To my mind proclaiming the gospel from the same desk as the other readings is higher up the candle than having a procession half way down the nave.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Even I;ve hear of Stanley Hauwerwas as not some layman but a particularly distinguished and internationally acclaimed theologian.
Strictly speaking, I think Stanley is lay because he is not ordained. His background is in the Southern Baptists, but his extensive academic theological corpus is widely seen as being influenced by anabaptist thought. I think I am correct in thinking he is a communicant in the Episcopal church, although I'm not sure how that works given he now has a Professorship at the University of Aberdeen.
Actually, his background is Methodist. He sometimes claims to be equally influenced by Anabaptists and Catholics, and that Methodism seemed to be as good a place as any to take up a home between the two.
Despite his professorship in Aberdeen (which is largely honorary), he spends most of his time in North Carolina, where he attends an Episcopal church. I don't think he's ever bothered to make the switch to the Episcopal Church official.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Actually, his background is Methodist.
Oops you are quite right, apols.
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arse
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Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I get the strangest feeling that the reviewer knows nothing about the Anglican CHurch in Canada, and didn't bother to find out anything. In a sense that's fair...a mystery report is about how one reacts to what is on offer. In another, it's unsettling, because were I to go through the report point by point, there are many, many things misunderstood.
Knopwood has dealt with a number of points, and I'm going to add just one. It has in fact nothing to do with the review of liturgy but with insufficient research. The reviewer quite rightly points out that from the Cathedral's location at the corner of Church and King (how appropriate for a cathedral...well the street was named for it so...) one can have either gluttony catered for or sex. The reviewer refers to the ladies of the streets of the area ... but omits to notice that Church Street is at the very heart of the Gay Village, so it's not just heterosexual sin catered for near the cathedral.
John
The reviewer in question is me. I'm an Anglican, but not from Canada. I'm sorry you thought I was ill-informed but I doubt the average church newcomer is well-researched into the peculiarities of Canadian Anglican churchmanship.
As for the gay aspect of the surrounding neighborhood, I wasn't aware of that. I'm sorry if you were offended that I left the gay community out of the review.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I thought John Holding was being unfair to you.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Hail Mary
Apprentice
# 18531
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Posted
I was at St. James' a few months ago - I was raised Anglican in Toronto but the cathedral wasn't my home church - and thought your review was pretty spot-on.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. ~ Jack Layton
Posts: 35 | From: Canada | Registered: Jan 2016
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Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hail Mary:
I was at St. James' a few months ago - I was raised Anglican in Toronto but the cathedral wasn't my home church - and thought your review was pretty spot-on.
That's nice to know.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Jan 2016
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
An attempt was made to rectify this by creating an extra-diocesan cathedral but the money ran out.
Derp. I meant "extra-parochial" of course
Question from a non-Anglican: What is an extra-parochial cathedral? How can a diocese, which has only one senior bishop, have more than one cathedral? (I guess those are two questions.)
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
An attempt was made to rectify this by creating an extra-diocesan cathedral but the money ran out.
Derp. I meant "extra-parochial" of course
Question from a non-Anglican: What is an extra-parochial cathedral? How can a diocese, which has only one senior bishop, have more than one cathedral? (I guess those are two questions.)
To answer question one, in England most Cathedrals do not have a parish attached to them and do not sit within the legal bounds of any parish church (they host a gathered congregation and act as the mother-church of the Diocese as well as the seat of the Bishop). As such, they are "extra-parochial".
However, just under one quarter (from memory) are "Parish Church Cathedrals) which *do*, as the name suggests, have a parish. These were, primarily the cathedrals of newer Dioceses; a Diocese was carved out of the territory of one or more other dioceses, and a large church in the main city was "upgraded" to Cathedral status, but kept its parish church status.
Until about the year 2000 they could be distinguished easily because they had a Provost instead of a Dean, but that all changed due to the Cathedrals Measure 1999.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Meet and Right So to Do
Apprentice
# 18532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
An attempt was made to rectify this by creating an extra-diocesan cathedral but the money ran out.
Derp. I meant "extra-parochial" of course
Question from a non-Anglican: What is an extra-parochial cathedral? How can a diocese, which has only one senior bishop, have more than one cathedral? (I guess those are two questions.)
To answer question one, in England most Cathedrals do not have a parish attached to them and do not sit within the legal bounds of any parish church (they host a gathered congregation and act as the mother-church of the Diocese as well as the seat of the Bishop). As such, they are "extra-parochial".
However, just under one quarter (from memory) are "Parish Church Cathedrals) which *do*, as the name suggests, have a parish. These were, primarily the cathedrals of newer Dioceses; a Diocese was carved out of the territory of one or more other dioceses, and a large church in the main city was "upgraded" to Cathedral status, but kept its parish church status.
Until about the year 2000 they could be distinguished easily because they had a Provost instead of a Dean, but that all changed due to the Cathedrals Measure 1999.
Aren't they also typically called "the cathedral church of ..." as well?
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