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Source: (consider it) Thread: Episcopal Baptists
mr cheesy
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As mentioned by Gamaliel, marvel at the phenomena that is the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia - that's the Eastern European Country, not the state in the USA.

The brief story is that the Baptists decided to set up culturally appropriate ministry, which in Georgia included having Bishops, using incense, calling their services Mass and wearing Orthodox-style garb.

According to their website even Baptist leaders from the USA and England have been getting in with it.

quote:
Even though relations between American Baptist Churches and Georgian Baptist Church have been ever growing and deepening for several years this was the first visit of the ABC leader to Georgia. Dr. Medley was very keen to take a closer look at the life and witness of the Baptist Church in Georgia. He participated in pilgrimage and worship services. He was also decorated with an Episcopal cross in recognition of friendship between the ABC and the EBCG.

He was deeply impressed by Georgian Baptist worship style. "As we gathered Wednesday and Palm Sunday for worship," Dr. Roy Medley wrote in his report, "the sanctuary was filled with the sweet smell of incense, the walls were painted with images of Christ, and Bishop Malkhaz with his flowing beard and robes led us in a service that was rich in symbolism and liturgy and culminated in the Lord Supper, but which retained an evangelical focus upon Christ as savior; our salvation through his death and resurrection; and the invitation for us to become his disciples."

Apparently the Georgian Orthodox church are a bit disappointed that the Baptists have not joined them.

I was wondering if anyone was offended by this obvious attempt to copy other-church's-practices and if there are other examples of normally non-Episcopal churches who have liturgical practices. One example I was thinking of was the Free Methodist effort to set up a [url=http://www.orderofstleonard.org/about[/url] in England with the declared aim to try to promote unity.

Any others?

[ 11. February 2016, 07:51: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
... I was wondering if anyone was offended by this obvious attempt to copy other-church's-practices. ...

Any others?

Yes. The Oxford movement, especially in its later manifestations, e.g. the 1920s.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes. The Oxford movement, especially in its later manifestations, e.g. the 1920s.

I assume you mean the rise of Anglo-Catholic movement in the Anglican church. Yes, I can see what you mean, but I was really meaning more recent and more radical departures from standard liturgical practice (as in Episcopal Baptists).

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arse

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Bibaculus
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I suppose a classic example is the Catholic Apostolic Church or Irvingites. Edward Irving was a Church of Scotland minister, and the body he is generally regarded as initiating - the Catholic Apostolic Church - was composed mostly of Protestant dissenters. The liturgy, of course, got higher and higher. They restored the Apostleship, and since 1901 (I think) when the last Apostle died, there have been no ordinations. The last congregation, in Maida Vale, closed maybe 10 years ago, but the College of the Apostles near Guildford and Christ the King, Gordon Square are maintained. The belief is that 'the veil has descended over the tabernacle', and the must await some prophetic revelation. See Columba Flegg's book 'Gathered Under Apostles'.

In the interwar period the Free Catholic Movement was a thing. Congregationalist and Uniterian ministers, most notably Dr Orchard at the King's weigh House in London (now the Ukranian Greek Catholic Cathedral of the Holy Family in Exile) sand High Mass and performed Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. Peter Anson's 'Bishops at Large' deals with some of this, as some of them got ordained by episcopi vagantes.

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mr cheesy
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That's interesting, thanks, I hadn't heard of it.

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arse

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Gee D
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I recall a MW report on the Georgian Baptists and following up the links. Fascinating, and as said then also, very LOTR, especially when out in the open air.
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mr cheesy
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There is an interesting, but old, SoF thread on the Catholic Apostolic Church here.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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I was also reminded of the phenomena of "High Church Mennonites". These include Waterloo North Mennonite Church which has a regular Matins service, the Canadian Mennonite University - which regularly has a Vespers service - and Mennonite Churches like Charlottesville who regularly hold Evensong services.

Which is all pretty mind-blowing to me.

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arse

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Apparently the Georgian Orthodox church are a bit disappointed that the Baptists have not joined them.


A bit of an understatement, I think. Bishop Malkhaz and his flock have been subject to harassment and physical attack in the past: I don't know if things are any better now.
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Adam.

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I think learning from each other is a good thing. Thinking about Catholic borrowings from the Protestant (broadly understood) world, the first thing that comes to mind is hymnody, both the borrowing of specific hymns, and the more general approach of how to use them in worship.

I would also think of preaching. While there were many fontes of revival in post-VII preaching, Protestant practice was definitely one. In our preaching sequence at Notre Dame, I think everything we read was either an official Catholic church document (and we have some very good ones on preaching, actually), or academic reflection from a non-Catholic author. The only exception I can think of to that is a book I chose to bring in to the final semester, where we were each expected to contribute one book to the reading list.

Outside of liturgy, Taize prayer has become a staple feature of many parishes, especially during Lent for some reason. The Catholic charismatic movement also borrows heavily from charismatic movements more broadly.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
.... Taize prayer has become a staple feature of many parishes, especially during Lent for some reason....

Well, it's a season for mortification and denial, isn't it? [Biased]
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I assume you mean the rise of Anglo-Catholic movement in the Anglican church. Yes, I can see what you mean, but I was really meaning more recent and more radical departures from standard liturgical practice (as in Episcopal Baptists).

In their own time, the sort of words used to describe the activities of people like Father Tooth and Fathe Makonochie were likely to include 'excesses' and 'papistical'. Even those parts of what they did that have now been adopted by most of the CofE, yet alone the parts that haven't been, were regarded as very radical departures.

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ldjjd
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A prominent evangelical megachurch in my home town offered ashes yesterday. Not that many years ago, it would have caused riots.
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SvitlanaV2
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Churches obviously learn from each other.

As sects mature and grow into churches, and their tension with the surrounding culture declines, they often adopt some of the formal customs and practices of the more established churches.

We see this for example when their pastors start to wear dog collars, study for degrees in theology, develop an interest in more sacramental practices (e.g. the traditions of Lent), cut down on rituals that have stigmatised them in the past. We see it in the history of the British Nonconformists, who went through a phase of building grand churches in order to compete with more prestigious denominations.

A 'culturally appropriate ministry' and trying to fit in for social reasons are perhaps too sides of the same coin, or two ends of a spectrum. Barriers are obviously blurred. IMO, the biggest question is, to what extent can you imitate your larger rival before you actually undermine your own distinctive identity and presence? Why should people attend an imitative church when they have the 'real thing' up the road? British Nonconformity could never outcompete the CofE, no matter how much it tried. I think it suffered in the trying.

But each church has to make its own judgement call on these matters. As for how other churches should react, I suppose there's a range of responses. In a secularising environment many churches appreciate whatever helps them to come together in terms of practice, theology and mission. There's less Christian rivalry in such an environment. I don't know if this is how things are in Eastern Europe.

[ 12. February 2016, 12:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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hatless

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I've met bishop Malkhaz, and found him equally at home in my Baptist chapel and in the high Anglican church up the hill. He was a good bridge builder and I don't think either the Baptists by the river or the Anglo-Catholics by the moor felt there was any acting or insincerity going on.

His church has a Baptist school of iconography.

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Gamaliel
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I've met him briefly too. I can understand the cultural sensitivity thing, as apparently Georgians expect all church ministers to look like that.

However, I do wonder whether there's an element of pastiche in there ... but he and his flick gave been treated pretty shittily and shabbily in the past. Not sure how things are now.

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hatless

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Isn't there lots of pastiche in all denominations?

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crunt
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How are we using 'pastiche' here?
Imitative or mixture?
Or both!

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hatless

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Pastiche is a negative word, and in the context of Baptists adopting an Orthodox style, I take it to refer to copying, adopting, borrowing or making-up a new Baptist style.

There is a love in many traditions, though, of claiming that something is ancient and authentic when in fact it was made up last week. We Baptists fall for this all the time, knowing that we are shallow, pale neophytes.

As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

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Bibaculus
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'old'. The clerical collar seems to have originated in the 18th century. Is that old?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Pastiche is a negative word, and in the context of Baptists adopting an Orthodox style, I take it to refer to copying, adopting, borrowing or making-up a new Baptist style.

Yes, I think it is intended to suggest negative feelings towards those who look to forms outside of their own tradition.

In this specific context, it would be interesting to understand exactly what is "baptist" about this unusual church - it does not appear to be following the usual Baptist pattern, so I wonder the extent to which it holds theology which would be distinctively baptist (and/or Evangelical). One point we have suggesting that the theology does hold something approaching the Baptist theology is the recognition by Baptists from elsewhere in the world.

quote:
There is a love in many traditions, though, of claiming that something is ancient and authentic when in fact it was made up last week. We Baptists fall for this all the time, knowing that we are shallow, pale neophytes.

As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

Well of course none of the features we commonly see in Baptist churches are that old. The use of the term "Reverend", the wearing of black suits, through to the use of microphones.

I don't think it follows that this means that the baptists are "shallow, pale neophytes", just that they try to fit, to some extent, with cultural expectations of the age. In fact maybe it can be argued that the Baptist/Evangelical "look" has become less attractive because they've stopped trying to look appropriate and instead have either kept a specific style from decades ago or have gone for a specific style sub-culture which is really only attractive to their own.

All of that said, having researched quite a lot of Anglican and/or Catholic sects, I did previously find those who decided to fairly recently set up churches which included a lot of bling as basically comic. Calling yourself a Bishop and wearing a mitre when you have a congregation of 3 is kinda silly. Renaming yourself Elvis and play hymns to rock-and-roll tunes, that's going quite a distance into ridiculous territory.

But, well, I don't know. Maybe there is space for more liturgical forms and styles for churches with a range of different theologies.

Of course I appreciate that those whose style has been "borrowed" may see these kinds of things as comic and silly and disrespectful.

As a footnote, Carols have a reasonable history. Hymns as we understand them today, on the other hand, are much more recent.

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arse

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:

As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'old'. The clerical collar seems to have originated in the 18th century. Is that old?
As a slight tangent, I'm reminded of the story of Eric Mascall telling a Canadian visitor in Oxford that the 'old' building which she was admiring wasn't really considered old there, having been built in 1683- and being pulled up a few weeks later when he asked some Chinese visitors whether they liked the old buildings in Oxford, and they replied politely 'Oh, are there some old buildings in Oxford?'. I suppose the relevant point here is that what you consider old depends on the timescale you're used to thinking in- a Vineyard pastor and an Armenian Orthodox monk might give you rather different answers!
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venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:



As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

Turning East to recite the Apostles' Creed at Evensong?

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Liturgylover
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:



As a corrective I am quietly compiling a list of things that seem to be old, and are often claimed to be old, but aren't. So far I've got dog collars, Advent candles, and carols and carol services. Not very impressive, but it might lengthen.

Turning East to recite the Apostles' Creed at Evensong?
Chanting a Psalm to Anglican Chant at the Eucharist?
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Enoch
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Chanting psalms at all, declining though it is now, is a fairly recent innovation away from cathedrals and possibly a few collegiate churches. From the Reformation until the mid-nineteenth century, nobody tried to sing the prose versions in the BCP congregationally. They were read. What were sung were the metrical versions that used to be bound into prayer books, either the Old Version from the C16 or the New Version from the C17.

In the early to middle C20, Communion Services tended to be at 8am and did not involve music. Going further back than that, proceeding to consecration and distribution was less frequent. There is some evidence that on a Communion Sunday, the musicians did often provide some sort of anthem during distribution.

There's quite a lot of evidence that the Litany was chanted backwards and forwards between the vicar and the parish clerk. Writers regularly mock parish clerks who bawl the responses. Whether the congregation joined in at all, I don't know.


I don't know whether people turned to the east to recite the creed before the mid-nineteenth century, or for that matter whether they inclined their heads at 'in Jesus Christ'. It would be quite interesting to find out. Does any shipmate know?

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Chanting psalms at all, declining though it is now, is a fairly recent innovation away from cathedrals and possibly a few collegiate churches. From the Reformation until the mid-nineteenth century, nobody tried to sing the prose versions in the BCP congregationally. They were read. What were sung were the metrical versions that used to be bound into prayer books, either the Old Version from the C16 or the New Version from the C17.

To return, if I may, to the Baptists, there was a move in some quarters to introduce chanted psalms into British Baptist churches in the late 1950s and early 60s. This was part of a wider liturgical movement which found its fullest expression in "Responses Praises & Prayers For Minister & Congregation" by Stephen Winward which came out in 1958 (I think there was another book for which he was joint author, too). The 1962 Baptist Hymn Book (the widely-used "green hymn book") contained psalms with simple pointing, but I doubt if they were much used. I doubt if there is a Baptist Church in the land which ever chants psalms now, although we very occasionally have one as our Choir Anthem.
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mr cheesy
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Whilst it might not have much of a history in Anglican churches, metric psalms go back to the Reformation in some traditions, especially the Presbyterians.

In my youth, the Baptist church I attended with my parents regularly used to read together the psalms from the green book - which were clearly arranged to be sung, but I never ever heard it done.

But then I have also heard it said that at one point Baptists were dead against singing hymns.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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We (Baptist & URC) frequently have responsive psalms and prayers, spoken rather than chanted.
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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

I don't know whether people turned to the east to recite the creed before the mid-nineteenth century, or for that matter whether they inclined their heads at 'in Jesus Christ'. It would be quite interesting to find out. Does any shipmate know?

I wondered earlier if turning east was prescribed, and found no rule. But there was a rule about reverencing the Name in the 1604 canons, in force until recently:


" And likewise when in time of Divine Service the Lord Jesus shall be mentioned, due and lowly Reverence shall be done by all Persons present, as it hath been accustomed; testifying by these outward Ceremonies and Gestures, their inward Humility, Christian Resolution, and due Acknowledgment that the Lord Jesus Christ, the true and eternal Son of God, is the only Saviour of the World, in whom alone all the Mercies, Graces, and Promises of God to Mankind, for this Life and the Life to come, are fully and wholly comprised. "

But I have no idea whether it was followed.

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Gamaliel
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I'm sorry hatless, but I didn't mean to criticise the Georgian Baptists nor their bishop ...

I appreciate that 'pastiche' was a loaded term.

But then, although I can certainly go with the alternatives you've suggested, I do think there's still an element of pastiche there ... and it's not confined to the conscious adaptation of 'Orthodox' looking styles by the Georgian Baptists.

I'd say the same, incidentally, for Anglo-Catholic borrowings from Rome. To me they look like a pencil and feel like a pencil, but when you try to write with them you find that there's no lead in them ...

[Big Grin]

Ok, I might be going a tad too far there ... but Anglo-Catholicism to me can feel like a pastiche of Rome ... not Rome as it actually is, but Rome as the pastiche-ants (to coin a phrase) would like it to be ...

All that said, I agree that many apparently ancient traditions are anything but ... much 'traditional' Anglican practice goes back no further than the mid-19th century, of course.

Even with the Orthodox, even though the words of the liturgies go back centuries, the tones and melodies for the chants don't ... very few of those used in the Orthodox world go back further than the 1830s.

In fact, nobody actually knows what early-ish Orthodox music sounded like. I s'pose there's some indication from the non-Chalcedonian Syriac churches which still use Aramaic ... but even there nobody knows how old the tunes/melodies (such as they are ... [Biased] ) actually are.

All that said, one could argue that there is something more 'authentic' and culturally in-tune with the style of the Georgian Baptists when compared with the way Protestant missionaries often introduced Western patterns into churches founded in very different cultures.

Heck, this happened as much with the 'new churches' as it did with the older non-conformist and traditional evangelical missionary societies.

I remember someone telling me how a Pentecostal church in Gibraltar was almost a mirror-image of one in Newport, South Wales, which had some initial input into it.

I've met Indian Pentecostals who listened to Jim Reeves and sang in 1950s style US revivalist mode.

I'm sure we can all think of similar examples.

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Jengie jon

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OK let's get this straight. In England Metrical Psalms were the legally required within the CofE until the mid-nineteenth century, long after English Presbyterians, Congregationalist and Baptists had introduced hymns. That is why you find in many older Bibles are bound with Metrical Psalms and Paraphrases at the back. Hymns before that date were largely for personal devotion.

Of course by then Non-Conformists had Watt's Christianised Psalms and Methodism was born in song.

Debate: The introduction of hymns within Anglican Liturgy was a direct response to Methodism as a singing revival.

Jengie

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Gamaliel
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There's nothing much to debate.

I'm not sure anyone here is suggesting that congregational hymn-singing in Hymns Ancient and Modern style was a feature of Anglican worship from the outset.

It's common knowledge that the CofE used Psalm-settings until congregational hymn-singing became popular in the 19th century - largely in response to Methodist practice.

However, this was also accompanied, of course, by a conscious dipping back into medieval/Early Church sources - as witnessed by the hymns of J M Neale. The style might be 19th century but the words were often based on early Christian hymns - both of East and West.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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Then, of course, we've got the later introduction of hymns - including Wesleyan ones - into Roman Catholic liturgies through Protestant influence - so yes, the influence extends ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


As a footnote, Carols have a reasonable history. Hymns as we understand them today, on the other hand, are much more recent.

Carols are quite historic, though their use in church comes much later. It depends, however, on how you understand 'hymns' -- quite a few hymns reliably attributed to St Ambrose or St John of Damascus are still in use today.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, and the Orthodox have 'hymns' or troporia as I think they call them -someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

They function somewhat differently to Western hymns though - and some hymns we sing in Western churches are adaprations of them.

Carols were only allowed in church in comparatively recent times - hence the rich carol tradition in pubs around Sheffield and North Derbyshire to this day.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I've met Indian Pentecostals who listened to Jim Reeves and sang in 1950s style US revivalist mode.

I'm sure we can all think of similar examples.

On the one occasion I visited a Mar Thoma congregation, I was struck by how it combined a streamlined version of the Syriac rite (shorn of repetitions and the invocation of saints, not unlike the Ukrainian Lutheran Divine Liturgy, which may also be relevant here) with missionary hymns like "I need thee every hour". The setting itself was somewhat incongruous: the priest wore a cope-like conical chasuble in lurid pink but the service (on a Sunday afternoon) was in a rented United Church which had clearly been Methodist pre-union and was built in the characteristic Georgian round style.
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Gamaliel
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That's interesting, Knopwood.

There's also an Indian style of Christian iconography - although I don't know how far back it goes.

For some modern examples see: https://www.pinterest.com/eddylyons/icons/

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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stonespring
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To what extent is the Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia the product of Western-Style Evangelical Protestantism taking on features of Georgian Orthodoxy and to what extent is it the product of a religious culture based on Georgian Orthodoxy taking on features of Western Style Evangelical Protestantism? And to what extent is it something wholly new that is neither Georgian Orthodoxy or Western-Style Evangelical Protestantism? (This makes me think of modern African-Initiated Churches, although they differ from the situation of Georgia because they come from areas that were largely non-Christian until the 19th Century (unlike say, Ethiopia) and dealt historically with colonialism and the slave trade. However, AICs are similar in that they often involve a blend of features that seem unusual in the historical churches of Europe).
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mr cheesy
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I hesitate to mention this one - as it rings all my weirdness bells to the extent that I'm wondering if it isn't just performance art - but how about the Church of St John Coltrane and the African Orthodox Church?

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Gamaliel
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Heh heh ... yes, I've seen that before.

Icons of Coltrane and some cool sax ...

Whatever else one might say about it, that has to be something ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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The African Orthodox Church is actually a legitimate phenomenon, and one which predates the founding of the Church of St John Coltrane. As I recall, the AOC was founded by a black Episcopal clergyman who was frustrated by the lack of African-American representation in his church. He obtained episcopal orders from some episcopus vagans or other (Vilatte, maybe?) and it was off to the races.

The Church of St John Coltrane was founded independently, and after some years of operation was folded into the AOC.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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gorpo
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I once visited an independent church that was once free pentecostal, then joined the Vineyeard movement, and later became independent again. I was very surprised that the service had no "hands in the air" worship, it didn´t even have vocal music (only instrumental), they had an altar with paraments acording to the liturgical time, and the sermon had some quotes from the church fathers. They followed the ecumenical lectionary.
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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Church of St John Coltrane was founded independently, and after some years of operation was folded into the AOC.

Yes, that was my understanding: I don't think it can be taken as "typical" of African Orthodox parishes. The lone Canadian congregation is in a Black district on Cape Breton island, Nova Scotia, the province where much of the Black Loyalist community settled. The current Lieutenant Governor (provincial viceroy) of Nova Scotia's immediate predecessor was the daughter of its onetime archpriest.
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Vidi Aquam
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I hesitate to mention this one - as it rings all my weirdness bells to the extent that I'm wondering if it isn't just performance art - but how about the Church of St John Coltrane and the African Orthodox Church?

I was curious about this church, so I went to one of their weekday evening services in the late 90s. As I recall, it was a mostly traditional Old Catholic liturgy, but with jazz music (and lots of it)!
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wild haggis
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Does it matter how we worship God - so long as we worship him.

We might all get a shock when we get to heaven......................singing Scottish Metrical Psalms!!

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wild haggis

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Gamaliel
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No, no, no ... we all know that they sing Welsh hymns in heaven - all in the minor key.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Bostonman
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# 17108

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The African Orthodox Church is actually a legitimate phenomenon, and one which predates the founding of the Church of St John Coltrane. As I recall, the AOC was founded by a black Episcopal clergyman who was frustrated by the lack of African-American representation in his church. He obtained episcopal orders from some episcopus vagans or other (Vilatte, maybe?) and it was off to the races.

I used to live down the street from St. Augustine's Orthodox Pro-Cathedral in Cambridge, Massachusetts, though I can't say I ever attended!
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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, no, no ... we all know that they sing Welsh hymns in heaven - all in the minor key.

I thought it was Gregorian chant.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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They can't do. It's not in "Rejoice and Sing".

[ 22. February 2016, 12:23: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gamaliel
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Well, yes, but we all know that everything will be translated into Welsh as soon as we pass through the Pearly Gates, including my Wenglish now isn't it?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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