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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Funeral Mass for Justice Scalia
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Did anyone watch the entire Funeral Mass for US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, DC? I only saw the very end of it, so I can't comment much on it. I'd be interested to hear other people's reaction to the liturgy. It seems to me that Justice Scalia' son, a priest, did a commendable job presiding at the Mass and preaching the homily. I was surprised to see such a tremendous number of priests and deacons taking part in the liturgy, although given Scalia's prominence and the location next to the Catholic University of America, that makes sense.
I noted that there were no comments from family or friends at the end of the Mass, which are common at modern Catholic funeral Masses in the place of "eulogies," but, given the traditional liturgical proclivities of Justice Scalia, this is not surprising.
I was surprised that the choir sang an Agnus Dei (in Latin) that seemed used the phrases "have mercy on us...have mercy on us...grant us peace" instead of "grant him rest...grant him rest...grant him eternal rest" (which is what I believe is supposed to be said at funeral Masses). If anyone can clarify this for me, I would appreciate it. (Maybe there are cases in which a choir can sing the non-funerary Agnus Dei at a funeral?)
It was nice to see Eucharistic Prayer I in use, as well as the chanting of propers (the texts for the propers for funeral Masses are so beautiful).
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Since the liturgical changes following Vatican 2 Agnus Dei no longer has .. dona eis requiem (sempiternam). In the Ordinary Form of the Roman liturgy miserere nobis and dona nobis pacem complete the Agnus Dei even at a Funeral Mass.
If the Funeral Mass was in the Extraordinary Form one might have expected dona eis requiem.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I only saw the very beginning, so I can't really comment on anything either. Forthview is, of course, correct about the Agnus Dei.
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I noted that there were no comments from family or friends at the end of the Mass, which are common at modern Catholic funeral Masses in the place of "eulogies," but, given the traditional liturgical proclivities of Justice Scalia, this is not surprising.
I'm sure this varies a lot, geographically and along other axes, but in my experience it's only a substantial minority of funerals where anyone from the funeral wants to do this. Given that a son of his had already preached, this would seem to obviate the perceived need.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Drreadful music!
Not sure if it was just the placing of microphones but the choir, rather than sounding like a unified body, was totally dominated by a woman with an uncontrollable vibrato. The rendition of Franck's Panis angelicus was particularly horrible.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The Post's coverage of the funeral. There are video and photo links in the piece.
Apparently there will be a more personal memorial service later on, in which all the friends and associates get a chance to speak.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Was able to see only the very beginning of the mass, so only a few comments:
- what one could hear of the organ music before the procession sounded appropriate and of high quality
- 'O God Our Help' was a good choice for entrance hymn (with good organ work), however was nearly destroyed by the over-miked warbly cantor (who was totally unnecessary)
- the chanting of the traditional introit was welcome, but the singing thereof was unstylistically rigid
- what was being censed when the priest and deacon dodged far to the right and down on the nave level? (camera work there didn't help)
- I recognized the cardinal, but who were the other hierarchs?
- this funeral must be one for the record books, with 4 sons as pallbearers and another son as the celebrant
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You can't retire from a calling.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
It's strange to me to see such a relatively low-key service from that church, with a simple priest as principal celebrant. I've only seen very grand affairs broadcast from there before.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
what was being censed when the priest and deacon dodged far to the right and down on the nave level? (camera work there didn't help)
The Paschal Candle
[ 22. February 2016, 06:06: Message edited by: NatDogg ]
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
It's strange to me to see such a relatively low-key service from that church, with a simple priest as principal celebrant. I've only seen very grand affairs broadcast from there before.
In life, in death we are all equal before God.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Drreadful music!
Not sure if it was just the placing of microphones but the choir, rather than sounding like a unified body, was totally dominated by a woman with an uncontrollable vibrato. The rendition of Franck's Panis angelicus was particularly horrible.
Based on previous experience, my money is on the mic placement and sound system. My hunch is that the music sounded quite different to those in the basilica.
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
- 'O God Our Help' was a good choice for entrance hymn (with good organ work), however was nearly destroyed by the over-miked warbly cantor (who was totally unnecessary)
I did smile a bit at an Isaac Watts paraphrase being sung as one of only two hymns in a funeral mass with otherwise very traditional music.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Oh now someone may just know their history. According to a knowledgeable source (alright a talk given by a scholar* at my local congregation as part of marking the 250th year since he died) "Oh God our Help" is not any hymn by Isaac Watts. It is the one composed on the death of Queen Anne. A complex situation as had Anne lived she would have signed a parliamentary act that would have made life very difficult for those of Isaac Watts' ilk.
Jengie
*My memory is not turning up a name but I think at the time associated NCEC (National Christian Education Council).
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Jengie, I don't know whether that's true or not, but it's Watts's metrical version of Psalm 90, which has been long regarded as either 'a' or 'the' funeral psalm.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've never got why "God our help" is a Remembrance Sunday hymn. And at the 1953 Coronation. It is a magnificent hymn, though.
For my funeral I want 'O what their joy and their glory must be".
"When Royal Anne became our Queen, the Chuch of England!s glory/ Another face of things was seen and I became a Tory..."
Presumably from Watts' point of view she was preferable to her popish half brother.
[ 22. February 2016, 19:59: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Who was Queen Anne's popish half brother ?
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Robertus Liverpolitanae
Shipmate
# 12011
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Posted
The half brother was James Edward Stuart (the old pretender, and father of the young pretender Charles Edward Stuart - Bonnie Prince Charlie).
Much known in Edinburgh I'd have thought?
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Once the Government approves something, it stops being immoral
Rev Tim Lovejoy
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Forthview might know him as James VIII. The Natipnal Gallery of Scotland refers to as such.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've never got why "God our help" is a Remembrance Sunday hymn. And at the 1953 Coronation. It is a magnificent hymn, though.
For my funeral I want 'O what their joy and their glory must be".
The hymn at the coronation in 1953 was RVW's 'mess-up' (his words) of 'All Creatures That on Earth Do Dwell' (tune Old Hundredth). This hymn (the only one in the service) was the first such at an English coronation, at least since the break with Rome, according to both RVW and Dom Anselm Hughes, who was also involved in the music for that event. (It's the first television broadcast that I can remember seeing.)
'O what their joy' is down for my funeral as well, along with 'All Creatures of our God and King,' 'Come, Risen Lord' and 'Jesu, Son of Mary.'
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You can't retire from a calling.
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Scrumpmeister: The "parish priest" in question was the late Justice's son. The family apparently requested a simple parish requiem, but the demands of state mandated a setting in the Basilica. I for one thought the service quite dignified and touching, with the exception of the already mentioned over-miked cantor. Our parish does NOT use a cantor to "lead" congregational singing, except during the psalm responses and the Gospel acclamation. We are, unfortunately, much the exception.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There are probably few topics upon which Scalia and I would be in agreement, nor do I know the extent to which he had given wishes for his funeral. That said, and given that the priest son felt able to take the service, the choice of simplicity is commendable.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Forthview might know him as James VIII. The Natipnal Gallery of Scotland refers to as such.
I shouldn't post after supper.
I meant the National Portrait Gallery of Scotland.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
You know,I simply could not think who this half-brother might be. Of course I should have known and thanks for your help in pointing out the obvious.
As to whether I would know him as James VIII that's a different proposition. The Scottish government accepted William of Orange as King as long as he accepted that the Church of Scotland should be 100% Presbyterian,but of course in romantic legend he is seen as the 'King across the Water'.
The Vatican monument to him describes him as:
Iacobo III,Jocobi II Magnae Britanniae Regis Filio
James III,son of James II,King of Great Britain.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Both 'O God our help in ages past' and 'All people that on earth do dwell' are not strictly hymns, but metrical settings of psalms (90 and 100). So having the latter at the Coronation was not a liturgical innovation.
Incidentally, has there been any recognisable Stuart claimant since the death of the putative Henry IX in 1807, who had rather ruled himself out of the running?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Incidentally, has there been any recognisable Stuart claimant since the death of the putative Henry IX in 1807, who had rather ruled himself out of the running?
I don't know, but I remember seeing at the back of Our Lady and St Gregory, Warwick Street, Soho a small memorial plaque to a deceased German Catholic prince claiming he was the heir to several defunct royal houses, including if I remember aright, Cerdic, Wittelsbach and Sturat.
My thanks to georgiaboy for putting me right on the coronation hymn.
[ 23. February 2016, 12:23: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I've just googled the following on Wki which gives the alternative Jacobite succession from a daughter of Charles I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobite_succession
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by NatDogg:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
what was being censed when the priest and deacon dodged far to the right and down on the nave level? (camera work there didn't help)
The Paschal Candle
Is that usual in the OF? We cense the Paschal candle when it's blessed on Easter Even, but apart from that it doesn't get any smoke.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the OF of the Roman Rite Funeral Mass the Paschal candle has an important role to play being a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ.
Many funeral Masses nowadays are celebrated in white vestments expressing hope for the future.
The black vestments of pre Vatican 2 and the six unbleached candles are now in the OF replaced with the white light of the Easter candle.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I think in the OF you're supposed to cense the Paschal Candle on every Sunday in the Easter season (?). What about baptisms?
Plus in the OF, you can also use violet vestments for funeral masses. And I think you are still allowed to use black vestments, too, in the OF, but I have never seen them.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Incidentally, has there been any recognisable Stuart claimant since the death of the putative Henry IX in 1807, who had rather ruled himself out of the running?
I don't know, but I remember seeing at the back of Our Lady and St Gregory, Warwick Street, Soho a small memorial plaque to a deceased German Catholic prince claiming he was the heir to several defunct royal houses, including if I remember aright, Cerdic, Wittelsbach and Sturat.
My thanks to georgiaboy for putting me right on the coronation hymn.
The Dukes of Bavaria could claim to be the Heir General of James II (VII). The present Duke has declined to do so. Henry, Cardinal, Duke of York of course died childless.
[ 23. February 2016, 20:10: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Oh now someone may just know their history. According to a knowledgeable source (alright a talk given by a scholar* at my local congregation as part of marking the 250th year since he died) "Oh God our Help" is not any hymn by Isaac Watts. It is the one composed on the death of Queen Anne. A complex situation as had Anne lived she would have signed a parliamentary act that would have made life very difficult for those of Isaac Watts' ilk.
Jengie
*My memory is not turning up a name but I think at the time associated NCEC (National Christian Education Council).
I had heard that too, with the implication that the hymn was composed as a thanksgiving for the Dissenters' delivery occasioned by the Queen's death. Without knowing anything very much about Watts, I did rather question that on the perhaps spurious and irrational grounds that a poet and devotional writer of Watts's quality was unlikely to have been so pettily vindictive as actually to celebrate the death, even of an opponent. Of course I might be wrong about that. If it were true, I don't think I could sing the hymn again, andd might even have to try to get it off the music lists at church, which would be a pity.
(BTW I see, that the tune is, ironically, called St Anne- named after the church in Soho, of course, rather than any reputedly saintly qualities in the Queen.)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
I thought that the homily given by the priest son of Justice Scalia was very good. It was to me well crafted. It was personal inasmuch as he talked about 'Dad' in very general terms, without betraying family privacy. In evangelical terms it made a powerful plea to those still in the midst of life to look forward to the future.
I was intrigued by the use of the word 'visit'
After the Mass the family would leave immediately for a private burial and would not have the time to 'visit'.
In British English 'visit' means to go to someone's house,to see that person,be received by them and to talk to them.
I get the impression from American English,from some of the MW reports ,that 'visit' can refer to talking socially to others in church. Is this correct ?
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
a thanksgiving for the Dissenters' delivery occasioned by the Queen's death. Without knowing anything very much about Watts, I did rather question that on the perhaps spurious and irrational grounds that a poet and devotional writer of Watts's quality was unlikely to have been so pettily vindictive as actually to celebrate the death,
It may be celebrating the deliverance from whatever it was that threatened them, rather than the individual's death.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I get the impression from American English,from some of the MW reports ,that 'visit' can refer to talking socially to others in church. Is this correct ?
Yes, or elsewhere.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
In Appalachia and the South especially, "to visit with [someone]" means to have a chat with them.
In my mother's family, "come on over here and visit with us" meant something like "come sit in the living room and stare at the TV instead of reading that book."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I get the impression from American English,from some of the MW reports ,that 'visit' can refer to talking socially to others in church. Is this correct ?
Americans use "visit" in a couple of different ways: one is for going to where someone lives or is staying (home, hospital room, etc.) and being with them and conversing with them. Another is as a general synonym for "chat," even if no one made a journey to see the other and it's just spontaneous. For example, I recall teachers saying things like, "I'd like to see more of you paying attention and fewer of you visiting during my lectures, please."
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
And another still is using the facilities: "Please wash your hands after visiting the lavatory."
And, of course, when filling out on-line forms, the cursor visits the various fields.
Also to bring up a topic for discussion or debate: "Let's visit the notion that Trump may actually be nominated." "Entertain" is also used in this context.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
I get the impression from American English,from some of the MW reports ,that 'visit' can refer to talking socially to others in church. Is this correct ?
Americans use "visit" in a couple of different ways: one is for going to where someone lives or is staying (home, hospital room, etc.) and being with them and conversing with them. Another is as a general synonym for "chat," even if no one made a journey to see the other and it's just spontaneous. For example, I recall teachers saying things like, "I'd like to see more of you paying attention and fewer of you visiting during my lectures, please."
Well you live and learn
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
For example, I recall teachers saying things like, "I'd like to see more of you paying attention and fewer of you visiting during my lectures, please."
Which, in British English, would imply that the students were leaving the classroom and going off to their friends' homes.
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
It's strange to me to see such a relatively low-key service from that church, with a simple priest as principal celebrant. I've only seen very grand affairs broadcast from there before.
Most of the time, more "low key" services are conducted in the crypt church or chapels, including daily Masses or "lesser" University academic Masses, like the Feast of Thomas Aquinas (which gets quite crowded, especially as it usually involves the Dominican community from across the street). Granted, there are the usual Sunday Masses or daily praying of the Rosary that take place upstairs, but generally, IME, the Great Upper Church isn't much used for the many day-to-day or smaller special services.
And there's no shortage of priests and prelates who can show up to concelebrate. I'd imagine ordained students and faculty were excused from their usual classroom duties at the University—during the year-opening Mass of the Holy Spirit, I'm pretty sure there are something like 150 priests and religious participating. Along with the faculty, it's an impressive sight.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Albertus
Venbede has it right; timing and not the actual death is important. Isacc Watts grew up in a church with a very close memory of persecution, as the Act of Toleration was only introduced in 1688 and Watts was born in 1674.
According to Wikipedia the Act of Uniformity was only repealed totally in 2010.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Hmm. OK, I'll reserve judgement on that one.
One section of the 1662 Act, forbidding the appointment to benefices of someone who has not been episcopally ordained, is still in force.
[ 27. February 2016, 11:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Both 'O God our help in ages past' and 'All people that on earth do dwell' are not strictly hymns, but metrical settings of psalms (90 and 100). So having the latter at the Coronation was not a liturgical innovation.
Incidentally, has there been any recognisable Stuart claimant since the death of the putative Henry IX in 1807, who had rather ruled himself out of the running?
It's a funny old world, I stumbled upon a monument to him the other week, in Frascati Cathedral where he was bishop and some of his remains are interred. He is likewise referred to as King of Britain, as is his brother to whom there is also a memorial.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Scrumpmeister: The "parish priest" in question was the late Justice's son. The family apparently requested a simple parish requiem, but the demands of state mandated a setting in the Basilica.
Thanks, LA Dave.
I understood that and was placing no value judgement on anything that took place; I was merely making an observation.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
By the way, majority of Isaac Watts work was metrical paraphrases of scripture, particular psalms take for instance this psalm. He was just more free than people who had paraphrased earlier in that he "Christianized" the Old Testament scripture to bring it into line with what he perceived as Christian sentiments. Therefore to specifically choose one that expressed the sentiments on a specific occasion when they could not be openly expressed would be natural.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Posted
Enrico Benedetto Stuarda as Henry Benedict Stuart is known in Italy was indeed a popular Bishop of Frascati.As well as having a monument in the cathedral ,Frascati has a Viale Duca di York recalling one of his titles as the second son of the claimant to the throne of England
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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