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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UK Mennonite church closing
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Meant to add: most decisions effecting the school: budget, disciplinary actions, etc. were made in a highly collaborative way in which the students were full participants, as much or in some cases more than the parents. Lots of focus on creative peacemaking/ restoration in those decision-making processes.
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
That is very interesting. In what I read before I had obtained the impression of Mennonites as slightly separating themselves from the world, and being principally concerned with how they should live themselves as individuals and a community, rather than telling society how it ought to live.
But that school suggests I got that wrong as it sounds at least as interested in the latter as the former.
Would a student need to share any particular set of principles to flourish there or could a contrary student fare well, who thought something unjust that others felt just ? Justice being one of those things that everyone believes in but not everyone defines in the same way.
ps I have myself taken the bus in Los Angeles, which I did not give a second thought to in advance, and did feel a bit out of place as a tourist, in a way which I have not done anywhere else.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Would a student need to share any particular set of principles to flourish there or could a contrary student fare well, who thought something unjust that others felt just ? Justice being one of those things that everyone believes in but not everyone defines in the same way.
Yes and no. They did encourage lots of healthy debate and were very good at showing both sides of issues. So definitely being on a different side of a political or social issue would be accepted-- encouraged, even. But you would need to buy into the overall principles of the school, which were not really so much religious as philosophical-- things like corroborative decision making, a commitment to peacemaking & non-violence, community building, power-sharing, etc. Those things were so interwoven into the make up of the school you would be pretty miserable if you didn't share those convictions.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
ps I have myself taken the bus in Los Angeles, which I did not give a second thought to in advance, and did feel a bit out of place as a tourist, in a way which I have not done anywhere else.
Yeah, it's a weird Los Angeles thing. The buses in particular are almost exclusively used by the poor-- which leads to lots of invisible justice issues in terms of funding for public transit vs. freeways or even the metro (much more middle class usage). So it can be useful to take suburban kids and have them figure out/experience things like: if you were a single mom, what would it be like to juggle a toddler, a baby, and 2 bags of groceries on the bus? If you were living in East LA and working at a swanky downtown hotel, how many buses would you have to take to work and how long would it take you? How reliable are the bus timetables, and how does that impact an hourly worker who is depending on getting to work on time?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interesting thread - in many ways it doesn't surprise me in the least that certain Mennonite or other Anabaptist groups may found common cause to some extent with echoes and parallels within the RCC - the 'base-communities' thing ... some aspects of monasticism - the emphasis on having a holistic and integrated approach where there is no separation between life and spirituality as it were ...
Which is also a Quaker emphasis too, of course.
I've heard an RC Benedictine monk speak warmly of certain Protestant 'neo-monastic' communities and also Quakers speak warmly of how much common ground they find with RC 'contemplatives' ...
I think that mr cheesy is right on the historical developments and so on, but I also think that in our more post-modern milieu it's more likely that parallels and overlaps in terms of ethos will be picked up and acted upon - even if structural and institutional barriers show no sign of dissolving anytime soon.
Whatever tradition we are from or espouse, we are all a patchwork or mosaic of different influences and emphases and - rather like a kaleidoscope - as things twist and turn, various patterns and overlaps emerge.
I was once intrigued by a comment by a Methodist minister who observed that even if the Methodist Church as an organisation ceased to exist in the UK - by around the middle of the century according to some forecasts - some form of Wesleyan spirituality would continue to exist.
I'm not entirely sure what he meant by that and how we could measure or evaluate it - but it does strike me that all the various elements in the mix and melange do leave a legacy, an after-taste if you like - or continue in some way that transcends or outlives the organisational structures ... as it were ...
There's something organic about the whole thing - which is only to be expected if we take the 'body' analogies seriously.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Tangent alert
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... my son went to a Mennonite middle/high school that focused on "restorative justice." It really shaped every aspect of what they were studying as well as how the school itself was run. Things like student discipline problems were handled in a very distinctive way quite different from what we'd see at other schools, even Christian schools. It's a way of life-- one we found quite appealing and really had a huge impact on our son's life and character.
I recognise that this is a tangent, but I'd picked up the impression on the Ship that the separation of Church and State in the US Constitution is interpreted to mean that schools in the USA have to be ostentatiously secular, that there's nothing corresponding to what we call a V A School. Is there some sort of compromise area on this after all?
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that mr cheesy is right on the historical developments and so on, but I also think that in our more post-modern milieu it's more likely that parallels and overlaps in terms of ethos will be picked up and acted upon - even if structural and institutional barriers show no sign of dissolving anytime soon.
Whatever tradition we are from or espouse, we are all a patchwork or mosaic of different influences and emphases and - rather like a kaleidoscope - as things twist and turn, various patterns and overlaps emerge.
I was once intrigued by a comment by a Methodist minister who observed that even if the Methodist Church as an organisation ceased to exist in the UK - by around the middle of the century according to some forecasts - some form of Wesleyan spirituality would continue to exist.
I'm not entirely sure what he meant by that and how we could measure or evaluate it - but it does strike me that all the various elements in the mix and melange do leave a legacy, an after-taste if you like - or continue in some way that transcends or outlives the organisational structures ... as it were ...
My reading of current British Christian spirituality is that there are a few, broad, categories of church (excluding for this discussion the complexities of the Orthodox and RCC which I don't know about). The majority of these broad categories encompass churches from across denominational boundaries and exert parachurch influences on thought and practice. Those churches inside generally become more and more like each other and less and less like other churches in their own denomination.
In my view, it is difficult for a congregation to exist outwith of one of these camps - and will probably become progressively more difficult to sustain.
It seems to me that the Mennonites of London were one of these outliers - different enough to be a culture-shift for joiners; similar enough to make it hard to understand what the point of them is/was and why one might join. AFAIU they (and the Anabaptist Network generally) attracted people who felt disillusioned with the standard church offerings and fairly often seemed to use Anabaptism as a step into something further "out there". That's not necessarily a bad thing, but a church consisting of people who feel that they don't fit anywhere isn't likely to be one that is very stable in the long term.
In terms of British church history, my view is that it is really really hard to keep a minority movement going. When it starts to go, it usually snowballs and then is fairly quickly lost altogether with few or any signs of much influence on the wider church. One of my favourite old denominations is the Glasites, which had a reasonable amount of traction for a while, then collapsed and become completely lost.
I therefore think it is highly unlikely that much of the Methodists will remain in any kind of form that would be recognisable.
And, again, I think we are talking about the peculiar situation in the UK - elsewhere in the world various forms of Wesleyan Holiness churches (sometimes mixed with forms of Episcopalian) have been retained and are strong.
So for me, I think the British Mennonites are most likely just to slip into obscurity. An idea that never really gained the momentum it needed to survive.
quote:
There's something organic about the whole thing - which is only to be expected if we take the 'body' analogies seriously.
I think religious ideas need some special kind of sauce to be retained - or have much influence - beyond the initial generations. I'm not clear what that is, but it doesn't seem to be something that Mennonite ideas have in the UK.
But then, I could be wrong. Some ideas seem to have a habit of being continually dug up when they look like they're properly dead and given new life by a new group of people. Maybe that's what will happen with the Anabaptists.
I hope so.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As for the claim not to be Protestant, there's plenty of evidence from the Ship that there are some CofE and Episcopalian shipmates who claim not to be Protestant either and with about as much validity.
I've known of Lutherans who claim not to be Protestant. I have a hard time getting my head around that one.
Not really difficult if you are aware that there is more than British meanings to these words. They are not opposing "Protestant" to "Roman Catholic" but to "Evangelical" and in continental European terms that are basically "Reformed" vs "Lutheran". So all they are saying is "We are not Calvinist".
Jengie
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent alert
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... my son went to a Mennonite middle/high school that focused on "restorative justice." It really shaped every aspect of what they were studying as well as how the school itself was run. Things like student discipline problems were handled in a very distinctive way quite different from what we'd see at other schools, even Christian schools. It's a way of life-- one we found quite appealing and really had a huge impact on our son's life and character.
I recognise that this is a tangent, but I'd picked up the impression on the Ship that the separation of Church and State in the US Constitution is interpreted to mean that schools in the USA have to be ostentatiously secular, that there's nothing corresponding to what we call a V A School. Is there some sort of compromise area on this after all?
State schools cannot be denominational, but denominations can run independent schools if they wish. Naturally they receive no state funding.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As for the claim not to be Protestant, there's plenty of evidence from the Ship that there are some CofE and Episcopalian shipmates who claim not to be Protestant either and with about as much validity.
I've known of Lutherans who claim not to be Protestant. I have a hard time getting my head around that one.
Not really difficult if you are aware that there is more than British meanings to these words. They are not opposing "Protestant" to "Roman Catholic" but to "Evangelical" and in continental European terms that are basically "Reformed" vs "Lutheran". So all they are saying is "We are not Calvinist".
There are British Lutherans? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously though, I'm American and it's American Lutherans I've heard say it. And that is hard to get my head around.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There are. Have you got any idea how few? Well not quite on the Mennonite level but still. Oh, and they are usually of German or Scandinavian descent!
But you have "Evangelical Lutheran Church of America" and the "Evangelical" is the same use there as "not Protestant" above.
Jengie
[ 19. March 2016, 14:09: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Tangent alert
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
... my son went to a Mennonite middle/high school that focused on "restorative justice." It really shaped every aspect of what they were studying as well as how the school itself was run. Things like student discipline problems were handled in a very distinctive way quite different from what we'd see at other schools, even Christian schools. It's a way of life-- one we found quite appealing and really had a huge impact on our son's life and character.
I recognise that this is a tangent, but I'd picked up the impression on the Ship that the separation of Church and State in the US Constitution is interpreted to mean that schools in the USA have to be ostentatiously secular, that there's nothing corresponding to what we call a V A School. Is there some sort of compromise area on this after all?
Public schools absolutely must be secular, private schools do not, and often are founded with the express purpose of providing a religious perspective*. The two other schools I was comparing the Mennonite school to reflect two of the most common US types of schools-- public schools and evangelical schools (there's also of course a vibrant system of Catholic schools, and then a wide variety of other sorts of schools with specific educational and/or religious bents). I'd never heard of "voluntary aided" school before but from your link it sounds like it would correspond to our private schools.
*(Am I remembering correctly that "public school" and "private school" have different meanings in UK than in US? For us, public schools are those funded by the government, free to students within their district. Private schools are supported primarily by tuition paid by parents and by voluntary donations/grants, and have far less government oversight/control).
[ 19. March 2016, 14:36: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes
Public Schools are the top private schools and we refer to what you call "Public Schools" as "State Schools" but that covers a multitude of differing fundings models.
The BBC gives a outline of schools in England
Jengie
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
But you have "Evangelical Lutheran Church of America" and the "Evangelical" is the same use there as "not Protestant" above.
No, I do think it is—at least not according to any Lutherans I know. When I have heard Lutherans here talk abut the use of "evangelical" in the ELCA, they have said pretty much the opposite—that it means "Protestant," though admittedly not of the Reformed variety.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
No, I do think it is . . . .
Sorry. That should have been "I don't think it is."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It may be that Lutherans claiming not to be protestants are trying to emphasize a continuity with the Catholic Church in terms of liturgical practice and sacraments - in the same way that Anglicans occasionally announce that they aren't protestant to make a similar point.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It may be that Lutherans claiming not to be protestants are trying to emphasize a continuity with the Catholic Church in terms of liturgical practice and sacraments - in the same way that Anglicans occasionally announce that they aren't protestant to make a similar point.
They are, I think. The Lutherans I have heard say it are typically from the Evangelical Catholic wing of Lutheranism. It's just odd when denominational websites and sources describe Lutherans as the "original" or "oldest" Protestants.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
They are, I think. The Lutherans I have heard say it are typically from the Evangelical Catholic wing of Lutheranism. It's just odd when denominational websites and sources describe Lutherans as the "original" or "oldest" Protestants.
Which, oddly, also isn't correct. The Moravians are.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well, they are Hussite who are commonly held to be. The Waldensians also pre-date the Lutherans.
Jengie
[ 21. March 2016, 10:39: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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MSHB
Shipmate
# 9228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Well, they are Hussite who are commonly held to be. The Waldensians also pre-date the Lutherans.
Jengie
Waldensians date from the 12th century - well before the Lutherans or the Reformation.
Hussites date from early 15th century, I think.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
True on Waldensians, Moravians and Hussites. But the Lutherans were the first to be called "Protestant." My Moravian friends (we have a fair number of Moravians around here) will say, somewhat jokingly, "we're Protestants who've been around longer than the Protestants have."
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
As for the claim not to be Protestant, there's plenty of evidence from the Ship that there are some CofE and Episcopalian shipmates who claim not to be Protestant either and with about as much validity.
I've known of Lutherans who claim not to be Protestant. I have a hard time getting my head around that one.
Not really difficult if you are aware that there is more than British meanings to these words. They are not opposing "Protestant" to "Roman Catholic" but to "Evangelical" and in continental European terms that are basically "Reformed" vs "Lutheran". So all they are saying is "We are not Calvinist".
Jengie
It's a bit more complicated than that.
It starts with the view that Luther and many Lutherans had, that it was not they who had departed from the apostolic faith, but rather Rome. The original Lutherans had no intention of leaving the RC church, but rather of reforming it. When they got the boot via papal bull and excommunication, there were therefore quite a few who questioned which side of the schism was in fact entitled to the term "original"--and those folks wouldn't be happy with the term "Protestant" insofar as it suggests "we left the church."
So there's that idea kicking around.
Of course, you've got to call people something, and as various movements were springing up all over the place ranging from the serious to the seriously wacky, you've got to distinguish yourself from those folks too--not just the Calvinists but the Anabaptists, the "enthusiasts" of all stripes, and the downright cultist. Luther hated the idea of calling us "Lutherans" (which well he should have), and so took to "evangelische", but now that's causing us problems with confusion with others who use the term "evangelical" (or in our Vietnamese context, Tinh Lanh) and teach very different ideas.
Which is all to say things are screwed up, as usual.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
It's worth noting the Bridge Builders, which was nurtured in the London Mennonite Centre, is still alive and thriving as an independent charity, working to improve how churches handle conflict.
quote:
Churches do not "do conflict" very well
Peace-making and reconciliation are key ideas in the teaching of Jesus, but in Christian communities they are often a weak element of the culture. So when there is disagreement and tension amongst Christians in the church, they can find themselves struggling.
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
Another bit of tangent...
I thought of this thread last weekend when I was driving the back roads in a neighboring county and came across a building labeled, "Old German Baptist Brethren Church". (Not to be confused, it turns out, with the "Old Brethren German Baptist Church".)
Consulting Wikipedia it seems that this is another Anabaptist group that practices pacifism, plain dress and simple living, along with the Amish and Mennonites. It would appear that this is the only such congregation in Oregon and one of only 9 within 1000 miles or so, making it a rather sparse denomination in this part of the country. (And those numbers were before the great schism of 2009...)
I'm curious how difficult it is to keep such an isolated congregation going, and how similar that is to the situation of the British Mennonites.
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