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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 3007 St. Catherine's Montacute
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
The Good Friday Meditation centred around Haydn's "Seven Last Words" indeed sounds amazing and I wish I'd been there. I would have shared the reviewer's delight at what was done. It was clearly a transcendent occasion.
However I would perhaps take issue with the comments: "If every service were as carefully prepared as this, and as beautifully and thoughtfully presented with such reverence and devotion, churches throughout the land would be bursting at the seams" and "It shows what a small village church is able to do to make Good Friday an extraordinary and meaningful experience for a wide range of people".
I of course accept that these comments reflect the view of the reviewer - which is what I'd hope for in an MW report. But s/he is assuming that "what ticks his/her boxes" is the same for everyone, and it isn't. My wife, while loving both classical music and reflective services, would have run a mile from this one as she absolutely detests string chamber music. It would have been a penance for her rather than a joy. So to say that services like this would "pack 'em in" seems rather too bold a claim to make and reflects the preference of the reviewer.
My other comment is that this was obviously a "special" service which had required considerable preparation. With the best will in the world, I cannot see anything like this being feasible for the vast majority of churches on a regular basis. Yes, the Cathedrals and "great churches" can do it; so (using as very different worship style) can the large evangelical churches. But most of us have to muddle along and do the best we can with limited time and human resources. And there is - or should be - integrity and authenticity in that.
"Discuss".
[ 16. April 2016, 13:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I do wish people would enthuse (if they want to) about the service they are reviewing without getting into fruitless hyperbole. There are many Cathedrals around the world with professional choirs which are not "bursting at the seams" for every choral service. The very idea that the general population is massively attracted to any specific type of music is easily disproved.
There just isn't anything to be gained from a million-and-one variations on a theme of "oh, if all churches were like x, they'd be no problem with y". I don't want to read that, I don't believe anyone else does either.
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arse
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
The report can be found here
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Flinging wide the gates...
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
A high quality experience of worship is said to be a significant factor in growing churches, so in a broad sense, the MW wasn't wrong. OTOH, what that actually means in practical terms and in any particular context is more debatable.
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Bibaculus
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# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There are many Cathedrals around the world with professional choirs which are not "bursting at the seams" for every choral service.
Yes, but the point of a cathedral service is that it is the worship of Almighty God, offered by the cathedral clergy on behalf of the bishop and people of the diocese. The number of attenders is not really relevant (though if people find it is a helpful way for them to worship God, that's great).
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
It sounds lovely, but since when has 'Lady Julian of Norwich' (sic) been a 'contemporary' poet (or even a poet at all?), still less John Donne (died 1631) Dylan Thomas (died 1953) and Robert Frost (died 1963)?
I can understand Mystery Worshippers - of whatever tradition - being moved or caught up in the moment, as it were, and feeling the need to express themselves hyperbolically ... I'm sure a trawl of some of the more effusive MW reports would reveal a number of those from all segments of the candle ... low, high and all stations in between.
I'm not sure how helpful it is, particularly as this was a special service that wouldn't represent 'the norm' for this particular parish for most occasions during the year.
It's rather like these Radio 4 morning service broadcasts where you find The Sixteen or the massed and serried ranks of the Treorchy Male Choir or some top-notch chamber-outfit participating in the service. We know darn well that they aren't going to be there on a 'normal' Sunday or at a mid-week service of some kind.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Yes, but the point of a cathedral service is that it is the worship of Almighty God, offered by the cathedral clergy on behalf of the bishop and people of the diocese. The number of attenders is not really relevant (though if people find it is a helpful way for them to worship God, that's great).
To be absolutely clear, I don't believe the number of attenders at any service is of any relevance to anything. This was a point made by the MWer, not me.
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arse
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Yes, but the point of a cathedral service is that it is the worship of Almighty God, offered by the cathedral clergy on behalf of the bishop and people of the diocese. The number of attenders is not really relevant (though if people find it is a helpful way for them to worship God, that's great).
To be absolutely clear, I don't believe the number of attenders at any service is of any relevance to anything. This was a point made by the MWer, not me.
My apologies for ascribing views to you which you do not hold.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
since when has 'Lady Julian of Norwich' (sic) been a 'contemporary' poet (or even a poet at all?), still less John Donne (died 1631) Dylan Thomas (died 1953) and Robert Frost (died 1963)?
The reporter wrote: "Renaissance and contemporary poetry by Lady Julian of Norwich, John Donne, Dylan Thomas and Robert Frost." Surely the reader can be expected to understand which of the poets named are Renaissance and which are contemporary.
Having had the pleasure of hearing Robert Frost read his works at Vassar College, and of seeing him read on the TV broadcast of President John F. Kennedy's inauguration, I'd certainly call him "contemporary." Miss Amanda isn't dead yet.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
We're getting off the point with these details.
My quibble was with the reviewer (i) hinting that all services should achieve this level of perfection; and (ii) suggesting that, if all services were like this, the churches would all be full. The first is IMO impossible to do, the second just isn't true.
So what can/should churches do in the world of "what can be done on a weekly basis"?
[ 16. April 2016, 16:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
P.S. I do think that the number of people at worship matters. Not to boost the Vicar's ego, but because we want as many people as possible to be led into a meaningful relationship with God and our faith.
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
We're getting off the point with these details.
Agreed. But I can re-edit the sentence to read "Renaissance, Elizabethan and 20th century writings of Julian of Norwich, John Donne, Dylan Thomas and Robert Frost" if it would be more accurate.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair enough as an amendment, Miss Amanda.
Don't misunderstand me, Frost is one of my favourite poets.
Anyhow, aside from picking the Mystery Worshipper up on points of accuracy - I concur with the main quibble with the MW report - that it projects the reviewer's own preferences onto the wider church scene in general and also fails to take into account the amount of effort and resources that would be required to mount an extravaganza of this kind regularly in your average parish church or Free Church congregation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with Baptist Trainman, Gamaliel and the others. I'm sure the service was excellent. I would probably have liked it. What I disagree with is the way the report insists that this way of conducting a service is the best one and that those of us who like other sorts of service are lesser beings.
For example, what I would have been less excited by, if this were the only diet, which I suspect at Montacute it isn't, would be if in all the services all one did was receive, without the opportunity for participation.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Not just that, but also the suggestion that all services should be executed with such a level of perfection. Nice thought (and I applaud excellence) but it simply can't be done.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
For me, apart from being impossible to achieve and raising expectations that can't be met, that would be part of the same problem. If all services have to be executed perfectly, there's no role for the hoi polloi except as spectators, to admire and to be inspired, but also, just to receive - O and of course to complain when what we are given does not come up to scratch.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
For me, apart from being impossible to achieve and raising expectations that can't be met, that would be part of the same problem. If all services have to be executed perfectly, there's no role for the hoi polloi except as spectators, to admire and to be inspired, but also, just to receive . . . .
Indeed. And to be honest, the inspiration would wear thin to me.
I'm very glad the Mystery Worshipper found the service moving. But based on the description, I feel pretty sure that I would have hated it. I have a Bachelor of Music, and I would love the music—but as a performance (or as the MWer called it at least once, a recital), not as worship. Especially on a day like Good Friday, I want liturgy that will engage me and pull me in, not something passive.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I have a Bachelor of Music, and I would love the music—but as a performance (or as the MWer called it at least once, a recital), not as worship. Especially on a day like Good Friday, I want liturgy that will engage me and pull me in, not something passive.
I'm sure I'm in the majority when I say that the music I like to listen to and the music that engages me in worship are very different. And, I see no reason why they should be the same.
I have no musical ability, I can't join the musicians (whether that's a string quartet, robed choir, or soft-rock praise band) and so can not participate in worship in that way. There is value in some musical accompanyment to contemplation - so, it helps me to have something played on the organ as I sit quietly to pray before and after the service, something being performed during the distribution of Communion etc (I recognise that that wouldn't necessarily be helpful to all, some might find it a distraction - and, IMO, if you come away remembering the music, whether for it's quality or lack thereof, rather than your contemplation of Christ then it was probably a distraction from worship). But, most of the time in worship I'm looking for a hymn or a song I can join in with, where it doesn't matter to anyone else that I'm out of tune, stumbling over the words (which is basically all the time when the words are in Japanese!) and generally displaying my lack of musical talent.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
The church where I usually worship has a approach which I think is appropriately balanced.
On Good Friday they hold a 'normal' act of worship with hymns and plenty of time for silence in the morning.
Then in the afternoon, they host a concert of seasonal music performed by members of the parish choir - mostly very high-brow material, polyphony from Tallis and Lassus. It is wonderful and many members of the congregation attend, but it is very clearly labelled as a seasonal concert, and not an act of formal Christian worship.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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