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Source: (consider it) Thread: MW 2975 Clerical attire
american piskie
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I have never seen a fellow's/scholar's surplice over an academic gown.

In the University Church, on occasions when the VC and Proctors wear surplices (which I think is only at the Latin Communion), they don't wear their fancy gowns (but of course they wear their hoods).

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
black is the way to go.

Now, if only people will stop wearing it at weddings. Or is marriage a fate worse than death? [Frown]
TV weddings are almost invariably performed by a clergyperson in black gown and purple stole, leading me to assume that in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
TV weddings are almost invariably performed by a clergyperson in black gown and purple stole, leading me to assume that in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.

What irritates me is the order of words in "Till death do us part." And apparently "You may now kiss the bride" is in the Book of TV Prayer rite.

[Edited to fix code and correct erroneous attribution.]

[ 27. April 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
TV weddings are almost invariably performed by a clergyperson in black gown and purple stole, leading me to assume that in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.

Nah. A Presbyterian, at least south of the border, would wear a white stole for a wedding, even in Advent or Lent.

Though come to think of it, I think it's usually white or tapestry stoles I see in TV weddings. So maybe you are on to something.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
What irritates me is the order of words in "Till death do us part." And apparently "You may now kiss the bride" is in the Book of TV Prayer rite.

I don't know where that comes from, but it was unknown in England 40 years ago. I can only assume it was originally used in some place where people both both spoke English AND the couple would not even have been allowed to kiss each other, yet alone do any other naughty things, until they were married.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
TV weddings are almost invariably performed by a clergyperson in black gown and purple stole, leading me to assume that in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.

What irritates me is the order of words in "Till death do us part."
I have to admit that I've never given it a second thought: it is precisely the same word order as in our prayer book. (Mind you, I've never actually attended a BCP wedding. In fact, I'm not sure I've been to an Anglican wedding at all!)

[Edited to fix code and correct erroneous attribution.]

[ 27. April 2016, 12:21: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.

And that it's OK to get married during Lent.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Who says you can't? We did, and no-one batted an eyelid.

We had nice flowers, too!

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
in TV Land, everyone is Presbyterian and it's always Advent or Lent.

And that it's OK to get married during Lent.
Well, "OK" is a bit strong: it's certainly not encouraged, but it's only forbidden (in Western Catholicism, anyway) on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
I have to admit that I've never given it a second thought: it is precisely the same word order as in our prayer book. (Mind you, I've never actually attended a BCP wedding. In fact, I'm not sure I've been to an Anglican wedding at all!)

Can you point a link to that liturgy? I can't find any Anglican prayerbook which gives the words in that order. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you've written above or something..

And, fwiw, I was also married in Lent. And despite being more Anglican now than I was on that day, I wouldn't think twice about the appropriateness of a wedding on any day, including Good Friday.

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Knopwood
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The Solemnization of Matrimony:

quote:
I N. take thee N. to be my wedded wife (husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, according to God’s holy ordinance; and thereto I give thee my troth.


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Offeiriad

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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

And apparently "You may now kiss the bride" is in the Book of TV Prayer rite.

Even more redundant since the blushing bride is now so often attended by her own offspring, suggesting that the first kiss may actually have happened some time ago....

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
What irritates me is the order of words in "Till death do us part." And apparently "You may now kiss the bride" is in the Book of TV Prayer rite.

I don't know where that comes from, but it was unknown in England 40 years ago. I can only assume it was originally used in some place where people both both spoke English AND the couple would not even have been allowed to kiss each other, yet alone do any other naughty things, until they were married.
The reason I object to it (besides its egregious naffness) is the sexism. 'You may kiss each other' (while naff, redundant and unnecessary) at least treats the partners as equal. (And, dead horses and the Anglican Communion willing, there might not even be a bride, or there might be two of them.)
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
The Solemnization of Matrimony:

quote:
I N. take thee N. to be my wedded wife (husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, according to God’s holy ordinance; and thereto I give thee my troth.


The 1662 BCP (The Prayer Book) has 'till death us do part.'

[ 27. April 2016, 16:21: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The reason I object to it (besides its egregious naffness) is the sexism. 'You may kiss each other' (while naff, redundant and unnecessary) at least treats the partners as equal.

Agreed. I also bridle at "This is the bride's special day" - that wouldn't be possible if there wasn't a groom, having his special day too.

[Pedantic point: if it's redundant, then surely it's unnecessary (not to mention tautologous) to say that it's unnecessary as well ... ] [Devil]

[ 27. April 2016, 16:23: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Angloid
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I thought that as I was typing it. But adjectives like that usually come in threes!

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Lincoln Imp
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

The reason I object to it (besides its egregious naffness) is the sexism. 'You may kiss each other' (while naff, redundant and unnecessary) at least treats the partners as equal.

My vicar refuses to use the words "who giveth this woman to be married to this man?" and their CW equivalent for that very reason. Instead she says "who brings..."

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
[Marriage during Lent] is only forbidden (in Western Catholicism, anyway) on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: "Marriages in the Greek Church take place after the celebration of the Liturgy, and, as in the West, the season of Lent is a forbidden time."

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Knopwood
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Ah well, in 1911 it may well have been!
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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The 1662 BCP (The Prayer Book) has 'till death us do part.'

The Prayer Book also doesn't say anything about weddings being forbidden in Lent.

Actually, having just checked, the 1979 BCP doesn't say anything about weddings in Lent either. Our curate recently proclaimed that the spate of baptisms we are subjected to (I mean, celebrating) is because of the back-log built up over Lent, during which we "do not marry or baptize."

So where does this Lenten-prohibition come from?

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The 1662 BCP (The Prayer Book) has 'till death us do part.'

The Prayer Book also doesn't say anything about weddings being forbidden in Lent.

Actually, having just checked, the 1979 BCP doesn't say anything about weddings in Lent either. Our curate recently proclaimed that the spate of baptisms we are subjected to (I mean, celebrating) is because of the back-log built up over Lent, during which we "do not marry or baptize."

So where does this Lenten-prohibition come from?

As far as I can tell, marriages in Lent are prohibited nowhere, other than on Good Friday and Holy Saturday in the RC Church. What's recommended in liturgical manuals is that those planning a Lent wedding consider the season and keep the celebration at a level that respects the quieter and more austere tone. I'd imagine most couples planning a wedding wouldn't want to follow that suggestion so will either want to ignore it or take the hint and look for a date without such constraints, however unofficial and nonbinding they may be.

A parish that wants to follow Ritual Notes (though no parish must do so) will find this on p. 351 (11th ed.):

quote:
Marriage should not be solemnized during the "closed seasons," i.e. from Advent Sunday to Christmas day, and from Ash Wednesday to Easter day, all inclusive. This does not mean that weddings are altogether forbidden in those seasons, for marriage (when in the opinion of the bishop there is sufficient justification) may at all times be lawfully and canonically contracted; and recent rulings now permit the nuptial blessing to be given at all times, even in Advent and Lent, except on the last three days of Holy week and on All Souls' day. If marriage is contracted in such circumstances the customary social festivities should be omitted and all display avoided.

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Enoch
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Although I can see, and would agree, that baptisms should be held at Easter, I've never heard of any rule that they cannot take place in Lent. I'd have thought that was unlikely bearing in mind the high risk of infant mortality particularly in the past.

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Gee D
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Of course, while the northern hemisphere weather in Advent and Lent is likely to be on the contrary side, south of the equator is the opposite. It's a prime time when very many weddings these days are held in parks and other outdoor locations.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Enoch
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Can you have a church wedding out of doors in Australia?

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Gee D
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If by "church", you mean conducted by clergy, yes a ceremony can be outdoors, and it does not have to be on church property either.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Although I can see, and would agree, that baptisms should be held at Easter, I've never heard of any rule that they cannot take place in Lent. I'd have thought that was unlikely bearing in mind the high risk of infant mortality particularly in the past.

I have a child that was baptized during Lent. I was actually a bit surprised that it was OK - the Lent date was convenient for us, because it meant we could get all the family there, so I made a rather tentative enquiry to our (C of E, A-C) priest, and was told "that's completely fine - which weekend were you wanting?"
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If by "church", you mean conducted by clergy, yes a ceremony can be outdoors, and it does not have to be on church property either.

But would it have "legal" or "civil" validity? Or would it basically be a "blessing"?

In Britain it would be the latter ... weddings can only be legal if carried out in registered buildings. (I'm not sure if that would extend, say, to the gardens or churchyard of a church, though).

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Gee D
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Really, there are only "civil" weddings here, at least as I understand your post. They gain their validity from being carried out by a person who is an authorised celebrant under the Marriage Act, and where they are carried out is irrelevant. Any religious aspect is an addition with no effect on validity.

[ 30. April 2016, 08:19: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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L'organist
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My understanding was that weddings were not celebrated in Lent because of the no sex in Lent rule, which applies from Ash Wednesday until after one has received one's Easter Communion, with the one exception of Refreshment Sunday - maybe that's why its called Mothering Sunday [Snigger]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Corvo
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If by "church", you mean conducted by clergy, yes a ceremony can be outdoors, and it does not have to be on church property either.

But would it have "legal" or "civil" validity? Or would it basically be a "blessing"?

In Britain it would be the latter ... weddings can only be legal if carried out in registered buildings. (I'm not sure if that would extend, say, to the gardens or churchyard of a church, though).

The Archbishop of Canterbury could issue a Special Licence for a wedding to take place outdoors (or anywhere for that matter).

[ 30. April 2016, 13:32: Message edited by: Corvo ]

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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My understanding was that weddings were not celebrated in Lent because of the no sex in Lent rule, which applies from Ash Wednesday until after one has received one's Easter Communion, with the one exception of Refreshment Sunday - maybe that's why its called Mothering Sunday [Snigger]

That rule can be waived in the event of urgent pastoral need, such as terminal illness for a close relative or close friend (or even if that apples to the bride or groom) and it is more urgent than leaving it until Lent is over.

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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
My understanding was that weddings were not celebrated in Lent because of the no sex in Lent rule, which applies from Ash Wednesday until after one has received one's Easter Communion, with the one exception of Refreshment Sunday - maybe that's why its called Mothering Sunday [Snigger]

From the Episcopal Cafe:
quote:
There’s an old joke about a newly married couple whose wedding night (and the next few) are not quite what the bride had envisioned. The groom explains that it is Lent. The bride’s comeback is, “To whom is it lent and for how long?”
I'll get my purple coat...

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Enoch
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Perhaps I move in the wrong circles, but I've never heard that all, rather than those who have chosen this particular discipline, are required to abstain from marital relations for the whole of Lent.

Does the birthrate noticeably fall around December? Are couples required to explain themselves if they have babies around that time?

A few years ago, somebody claimed to have carried out research that it could have a contraceptive effect if the man had had a hot bath shortly beforehand. Somebody else queried whether that meant having hot baths was sinful, or whether it was only sinful if the bath was with an explicit intentio fertilitatem reductione.

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Can you have a church wedding out of doors in Australia?

It differs from diocese to diocese. A former bishop of Grafton Diocese, for example, forbade it entirely, mandating that all weddings must take place in a consecrated building. Just after he had left however, to return to parish priesthood, he was asked to take the wedding of a famous NZ/OZ filmstar with a penchant for throwing telephones. He returned to his former diocese, quickly consecrated the filmstar's alleged chapel, and conducted the ceremony.

No hypocrisy there, of course.

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Gee D
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That might be a rule in a diocese, but the location of the ceremony has no bearing on its validity as a marriage. No need to ask for a special licence to have an outdoor service, kowtowing to the ABC. As a matter of law, the validity depends only upon the authorisation of the celebrant.

I can't think how many Anglican weddings we've attended over the years conducted on a country property owned by the family of either bride or groom.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

Does the birthrate noticeably fall around December? Are couples required to explain themselves if they have babies around that time?

Historically there is some fascinating stuff about the preferred months for marriage and how this interfaces with the survival in the folk memory of the Advent and Lent proscriptions of pre-reformation times.

Kussmaul, A general view of the rural economy of England 1538-1840. CUP.

Previews here Kussmaul

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