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» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Yet saints their watch are keeping, Their cry goes up 'How long?' (Page 1)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Yet saints their watch are keeping, Their cry goes up 'How long?'
Eirenist
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A previous Vicar of this parish claimed that beneath the pulpit there was a tank of hungry piranha fish covered by a trapdoor, and that if any preacher (myself included) went on for more than eight minutes flat he would press a button and the trapdoor would open.

Would any shipmate care to express an opinion on the length of the ideal sermon (and suggest any method to ensure that preachers stick to it)?

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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There is no ideal length for a sermon. It depends upon the Scriptures being preached on, the particular congregation and the message that is laid upon the heart of the preacher. It also depends on the rest of the service - the selection of hymns may, for example, be used to supplement the sermon.

Different churches will have different expectations for the sermon, which will cover both style and length.

If I'm preaching, my sermon will usually be 15-20 minutes (possibly longer if there will need to be time for interpretation). On the otherhand, a good preacher can be just warming up at that point.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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leo
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10-12 mins maximum for a Parish Communion with a congregation of mixed ages.

20 for Evensong or a weekday eucharist when it's mainly, if not excluively adults.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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rolyn
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If a sermon were to go on for more than hour an hour would any of the congregation still be awake to notice that the pulpit had been inexplicably vacated?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Og, King of Bashan

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Within reason, I think length matters less than organization. Last Sunday, our preacher spent the first five minutes or so talking about the wealth of preaching opportunities in the readings, and gave short hints as to what he would have preached on had he not settled on Acts.

That's unnecessary filler, father. Pick a text and preach. If you talk about what you aren't preaching about, guess what? You just preached about it.

Honestly, as long as I can tell that the priest went through and culled bits that weren't on the main point, chances are I'm not checking my watch.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
A previous Vicar of this parish claimed that beneath the pulpit there was a tank of hungry piranha fish covered by a trapdoor, and that if any preacher (myself included) went on for more than eight minutes flat he would press a button and the trapdoor would open.

Context is everything. I simply don't think that is long enough to develop a complex and sophisticated examination of a text or topic, which is what I would want to do in a normal "main" service.

Conversely, nothing in an "All-age" service should be more than 5 minutes long - although one may take more than one bite of the sermonic cherry (and present it in varied ways).

And a "devotional" thought at a more reflective service (e.g. Maundy Thursday Communion) should be relatively brief.

P.S. We do have a tank (= baptistery for full immersion) under the platform at the front of our church. Last time I looked the piranhas were hiding - or had been eaten by the crocodiles.

[ 30. April 2016, 15:33: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Boogie

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Ten minutes, fifteen a a push. Any more than this is pure waffle.

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Pigwidgeon

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Normally the preacher has lost me if the sermon goes over 10-12 minutes.
[Snore]

But a lot depends on the preacher (and the situation). Our Presiding Bishop can hold my attention for over half an hour and leave me wanting more.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Normally the preacher has lost me if the sermon goes over 10-12 minutes.
[Snore]

But a lot depends on the preacher (and the situation).

It also depends on the particular flavor of Christianity and what the worshipper, or the congregation, expects from the sermon.

Given my particular background (Presbyterian), I rarely find a 10 minute sermon to be, for want of a better term, filling. I feel like I've been served an appetizer when I'm hungry for meat and potatoes. Generally speaking, I'd say Episcopalians or Catholics would find Presbyterian sermons to be too long, while Presbyterians would find Catholic or Episcopal sermons to be too short. Then there are the Baptists, who might well find Presbyterian sermons too short.

I'd say the neighborhood of 20 minutes is the expected norm for us, sometimes a little shorter.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Then there are the Baptists, who might well find Presbyterian sermons too short.

Depends on the Baptists, depends on the Presbyterians!

Seriously, there is something to do with the preacher's organisation, content and delivery; and also with the target audience. I once read a book (possibly by John Stott) in which the author cited the most inappropriate sermon they'd ever heard, delivered by the Curate "at a church in a working-class Birmingham parish at Evensong": "The Significance of Recent Archaeological Discoveries in our Understanding of the Inter-testamental Period".

Sounds riveting!

I also remember reading about Michael Saward, when a curate in London in the 1960s, taking issue with his Rector's lengthy and highly-detailed Bible expositions in the style of Martyn Llloyd-Jones. In particular there was one interminable series for which he was asked to find interesting titles. As he placed the notice on the board, a frustrated parishioner said, "He can give 'em whatever fancy name he likes, they're still bloody 1 Peter!"

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I rarely find a 10 minute sermon to be, for want of a better term, filling. I feel like I've been served an appetizer when I'm hungry for meat and potatoes.

Me, too. On the other hand, some "lengthy" preachers spend far too long fussing around with the napkins, arranging the cutlery and discussing the menu before they serve you any "food" at all!
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Urfshyne
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A retired Salvation Army officer (Now deceased) of my acquaintance used to say, "If you haven't struck oil in ten minutes, stop boring."

Personally, I find it depends entirely upon the content and the presentation.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
the most inappropriate sermon they'd ever heard, delivered by the Curate "at a church in a working-class Birmingham parish at Evensong": "The Significance of Recent Archaeological Discoveries in our Understanding of the Inter-testamental Period".

Sounds riveting!

Sounds like a Curate sermon.

[Two face]

No, you need practice to get good. I don't expect you to come right out of seminary and be able to preach a perfectly organized sermon. That's part of the responsibility of the parish that takes on a Curate, to help them learn the ropes.

(I remember hearing a Curate giving a fairly poor sermon at a weekday afternoon mass in NYC, at a place where homeless people were welcome to come off the street to have a moment of peace inside. One particularly troubled man stood up in the middle of the sermon and yelled, in classic New York fashion, "YOU SUCK!" I wouldn't have gone that far in my criticism, but he kind of had a point...)

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
the most inappropriate sermon they'd ever heard, delivered by the Curate "at a church in a working-class Birmingham parish at Evensong": "The Significance of Recent Archaeological Discoveries in our Understanding of the Inter-testamental Period".

Sounds riveting!

Sounds like a Curate sermon.

[Two face]


But it's SO much easier to use a paper you wrote in Seminary rather than actually write a sermon.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Cottontail

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I asked one of my supervisors this when I had just started my training. Her reply was, "Some sermons are too long at five minutes, and some are too short at fifty-five."

Ministering to a wealthy liberal congregation, she taught me to get to the point in 10-12 minutes. However, my next church was conservative charismatic, in one of the poorest areas of Scotland. Many of the congregation had problems with substance abuse, and with their mental and physical health. Yet the minister there regularly spoke for an hour, without notes, and he never lost his listeners once.

The problem was that the other members of the ministry team would attempt to replicate this, and they didn't quite have the skill that he did. Neither did I. But I did hit 35 minutes once, and found it a freeing experience! And the congregation politely accepted such a short sermon because I was a rookie after all.

These days I aim for around 15 minutes.

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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Then there are the Baptists, who might well find Presbyterian sermons too short.

Depends on the Baptists, depends on the Presbyterians!
Indeed! My familiarity and experience is with (American) Southern Baptists. Mileage may certainly vary.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Barnabas62
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I used to say that Rabbi Lionel Blue set the standard (BBC R4 Thought for the Day) at three minutes. Within which he nearly always managed to find something informative, helpful and funny to say.

But seriously folks ...

It is always better to err on the short side.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I rarely find a 10 minute sermon to be, for want of a better term, filling. I feel like I've been served an appetizer when I'm hungry for meat and potatoes.

Me, too. On the other hand, some "lengthy" preachers spend far too long fussing around with the napkins, arranging the cutlery and discussing the menu before they serve you any "food" at all!
Without a doubt. And then what they do serve us overdone.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Urfshyne:
A retired Salvation Army officer (Now deceased) of my acquaintance used to say, "If you haven't struck oil in ten minutes, stop boring."

That's a beauty [Big Grin]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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HCH
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Have a good opening, have a good closing, and make them as close together as possible. (Although a good joke or two may be allowed.)

Has anyone read "The Great Sermon Handicap" by Wodehouse?

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mousethief

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Ideal sermon length: 0 minutes.

Ideal homily length: 10 minutes tops.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Has anyone read "The Great Sermon Handicap" by Wodehouse?

Of course! (But then again, I've read virtually everything Plum ever wrote.)

[Big Grin]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Brenda Clough
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Our church is a busy one, and there are 3 services on Sunday morning. This means that each service must end on time, if the next one is to start on time. And this is a powerful motivator for everybody to keep things on track.
It is invisible from the pews, but on the front of the first pew (on the panel that hides the front-pew sitters knees) our previous Rector mounted a clock. It is a foot in diameter and easily visible from anywhere in the altar area or pulpit.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Baptist Trainfan
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It is extremely common for Nonconformist chapels to have clocks mounted in a place where the preacher (but not the congregation) can see it.

This caught the BBC out some years ago in a "Songs of Praise" programme. Having been recorded in several takes and reassembled later, the programme showed the time varying wildly. I noticed that, next time they did the programme in a similar chapel, the clock was discreetly covered.

I have known the (mains electric) clock stoop in the middle of the sermon ... with predictable results!

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Brenda Clough
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Depending on how choral your services are, sometimes all the time is sucked up not by the sermon, but by that extra chorus. For festivals our choir rehearses and times everything. (That tradition of singing the Hallelujah Chorus always calls for tinkering with the schedule.)

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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Open-evo church about 30 years ago. 630pm Sunday service - full ASB Evening Prayer with hymns etc. I was tired - assisting at 8am BCP Communion, leading Pathfinders at 1030am service, lunch with in-laws, tea with parents......I looked at my watch as the Vicar began his sermon, and looked at it again when Mrs. I. woke me up at the end FORTY-SEVEN (47) minutes later......

I.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Open-evo church about 30 years ago. 630pm Sunday service - full ASB Evening Prayer with hymns etc. I was tired - assisting at 8am BCP Communion, leading Pathfinders at 1030am service, lunch with in-laws, tea with parents......I looked at my watch as the Vicar began his sermon, and looked at it again when Mrs. I. woke me up at the end FORTY-SEVEN (47) minutes later......

I.

I doubt that you were the only one who dozed off.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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ThunderBunk

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I wish people would stop obsessing with the length of sermons. Some preachers can only mouth platitudes in ten minutes; they need 20 minutes to get into the substance of their subject and say something meaningful. Others get waffly and unfocussed if they preach for more than 8 minutes; they need the miniature form and the discipline it gives to bring their thoughts into focus.

It also depends on the relationship between preacher and congregation, and between the congregation and their worship.

The right length for a sermon is what the preacher needs to say what they want to say and to take the congregation on the intended journey/exploration.

Of course, if the elements don't fit together the sermon isn't going to work, whatever length it may be.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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ExclamationMark
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It depends on audience and context (type of service). I'm doing all age worship tomorrow on the "Great Banquet" and there's several slots of no more than 4 minutes each. A couple of these will be unpacking the bible story.

Normally I'm 25 to 27 minutes and am told I can hold the attention well: I focus a fair bit on practicalities and application. I don't use a lot of jokes (I'm not naturally funny) I do use pictures/slides quite a bit to emphasise the points. Lots of people take notes: I also get dynamic feedback from people during preaching which can affect the timing. I'm working on in sermon tweets too

If we are to grow as disciples we need to be fed. Feeding means something going in - and I work generally on a 3 P service - prayer, praise and proclamation in balance. In a previous curch I often preached for 40 minutes with many young people present who told me they could understand what I said.

If the church wanted me to speak for 8 minutes each week, I think I'd have to ask them to get another pastor.

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Baptist Trainfan
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A quote from Spurgeon - not known for his brevity!

"The subject will not complain of you, but the people will. In some country places, in the afternoon especially, the farmers have to milk their cows, and one farmer bitterly complained to me about a young man — I think from this College — “Sir, he ought to have given over at four o’clock, but he kept on till half-past, and there were all my cows waiting to be milked! How would he have liked it if he had been a cow?” There was a great deal of sense in that question. The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals ought to have prosecuted that young sinner. How can farmers hear to profit when they have cows-on-the-brain?"

[ 30. April 2016, 20:10: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I wish people would stop obsessing with the length of sermons. Some preachers can only mouth platitudes in ten minutes; they need 20 minutes to get into the substance of their subject and say something meaningful.

Such a preacher would have lost my attention before he got onto saying anything meaningful. I'd suggest that he go into writing articles that he can then edit the opening crap out of. I don't go to church to be told what to think; a few pointers to make me think, yes, but stuff I can read up in any theology book? Nah.

[ 30. April 2016, 21:57: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mousethief

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Clearly the response to loquacious preachers is to stand up and sing at them.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Urfshyne:
A retired Salvation Army officer (Now deceased) of my acquaintance used to say, "If you haven't struck oil in ten minutes, stop boring."

But, if you strike oil don't you then go and pump it from the ground? I'm not sure what would be more frustrating, a sermon that fails to strike oil or one that as soon as it does caps the well. Neither provide anything for anointing.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Urfshyne:
A retired Salvation Army officer (Now deceased) of my acquaintance used to say, "If you haven't struck oil in ten minutes, stop boring."

But, if you strike oil don't you then go and pump it from the ground? I'm not sure what would be more frustrating, a sermon that fails to strike oil or one that as soon as it does caps the well. Neither provide anything for anointing.
You don't cap the well. Once the oil's flowing you leave it to get on with it, rather than carrying on digging.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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SvitlanaV2
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I'm another of those who think that overlong sermons are unnecessary when the preacher could just give you a reading list!

One of the reasons why I appreciate Evensong at the church I attend is that the sermons are fairly short. 10-12 minutes, I'd say. That's long enough for a mainstream, MOTR preacher. Longer than that and you may get padding. (Several years ago I went through a phase of trying to take notes at churches of this sort, and found a lot of repetition and extraneous material that didn't seem worth writing down.)

Of course, the listeners (i.e. the likes of me) are a problem; our attention spans are shorter than they were, so the modern preacher's skills and material have to be even more gripping now than they probably would have been in the past. It's a big ask, to be fair.

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Galloping Granny
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With many preachers I've found that anything after about 15 minutes goes in one ear and out the other.

Myself, I aim for 15 minutes, or 20 minutes max.

BTW, what's the difference between a sermon and a homily? I kind of thought that homily was the Catholic name for a sermon.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Brenda Clough
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I find the sound of a steady male voice impossibly soporific. I can snooze through anything -- sermons, political speeches, lectures. (This is why I was a terrible political reporter, but politicians do give you speech transcripts.) It takes a good speaker to keep me conscious, and I knit quietly in the pew to keep from dozing off during the sermon. I don't have to look at my hands as I knit, so i doubt if the preacher cares.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

BTW, what's the difference between a sermon and a homily? I kind of thought that homily was the Catholic name for a sermon.

AIUI, a homily is a commentary or reflection on the day's scripture readings. It's aim is to explain and place the scripture into context.

A sermon is more of a moral lecture. It will usually draw on scripture, and often on the scripture of the day, but its aim is to teach a particular point of faith, encourage a particular behaviour and so on.

So if you have a wedding, and the priest spends ten minutes talking about marriage and how to love one another, it's a sermon. If he spends 10 minutes explaining 1 Cor 13, it's a homily.

When a speaker from a charity that your church supports shows up and spends ten minutes talking about the work of his charity, it is neither a homily nor a sermon. It's probably a "talk".

(This is the cue for a queue of priests to show up and tell me I'm talking nonsense.)

Brenda: I've sat in lectures near knitters. They're very annoying - I'm trying to pay attention to the speaker, and I get a rhythmic clack-clack-clack in one ear. They're almost as bad as people who bounce their pen on their pad of paper.

[ 01. May 2016, 03:06: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

BTW, what's the difference between a sermon and a homily? I kind of thought that homily was the Catholic name for a sermon.

AIUI, a homily is a commentary or reflection on the day's scripture readings. It's aim is to explain and place the scripture into context.

A sermon is more of a moral lecture. It will usually draw on scripture, and often on the scripture of the day, but its aim is to teach a particular point of faith, encourage a particular behaviour and so on.

I've heard this distinction made before by some, but your description of a homily is the definition of a sermon in my tradition. Among my folk, the two words are used synonymously, except that if it's called a homily, it is typically expected to be shorter.

[ 01. May 2016, 03:37: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Lamb Chopped
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My own denomination makes no difference between sermons and homilies, though the latter word is rarely used. We get "message" occasionally, which only means the pastor is hoping to fool us into believing he's going to run short that day. Heh.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

BTW, what's the difference between a sermon and a homily? I kind of thought that homily was the Catholic name for a sermon.

AIUI, a homily is a commentary or reflection on the day's scripture readings. It's aim is to explain and place the scripture into context.

A sermon is more of a moral lecture. It will usually draw on scripture, and often on the scripture of the day, but its aim is to teach a particular point of faith, encourage a particular behaviour and so on.

I've heard this distinction made before by some, but your description of a homily is the definition of a sermon in my tradition. Among my folk, the two words are used synonymously, except that if it's called a homily, it is typically expected to be shorter.
Expository preaching is the pride of Sydney Anglicanism. The sermon is a very lengthy lecture in which we are told how to interpret (in its plain and literal sense of course) a particular bible passage of the Presbyter's choosing. Often a book of the bible is preached through for a number of weeks. A sermon of only 20minutes would be extremely rare in Sydney,
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Galloping Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My own denomination makes no difference between sermons and homilies, though the latter word is rarely used. We get "message" occasionally, which only means the pastor is hoping to fool us into believing he's going to run short that day. Heh.

"Message", for a lay preacher, can mean: "I am not a theologian. I am a member of the congregation who has studied and given thought to a topic/bible passage and am sharing such insights as have come to me."

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Expository preaching is the pride of Sydney Anglicanism. The sermon is a very lengthy lecture in which we are told how to interpret (in its plain and literal sense of course) a particular bible passage of the Presbyter's choosing.

I would be perfectly interested to read her sermons, or listen on the radio while doing something else. Sit and listen on a sunny Sunday morning? Nah, never.

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Evangeline
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Expository preaching is the pride of Sydney Anglicanism. The sermon is a very lengthy lecture in which we are told how to interpret (in its plain and literal sense of course) a particular bible passage of the Presbyter's choosing.

I would be perfectly interested to read her sermons, or listen on the radio while doing something else. Sit and listen on a sunny Sunday morning? Nah, never.
I just choked on my coffee, the presbyter is never a "she" [Roll Eyes]

I do wonder if you're right-sitting on a sunny Sunday morning to listen to an ordinary preacher-when you can download a gifted preacher from the net and listen at your leisure. Methinks the church service is an anachronism and may now be hindering the gospel.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I would be perfectly interested to read her sermons, or listen on the radio while doing something else. Sit and listen on a sunny Sunday morning? Nah, never.

Leaving aside the identity of the preacher, I have a wee problem with reading/listening to sermons outwith actually being in the congregation - or, at least, getting our only exposure to preaching that way.

My issue is that the sermon is a particular, participatory proclamation. By which I mean:
  • It is proclaimed word, the medium is the spoken word. The written word is a very different medium, and reading the transcript of a sermon is very different from hearing it.
  • It is proclaimed to a particular gathering of the people of God, in a particular place, with their particular history. It is prepared for that particular situation, and heard by that particular gathering of the people of God.
  • The particular gathering in the people of God participate in the proclamation of the word. It isn't a passive listening to someone speak, but an active participation in corporate worship. In some traditions it would be acceptable for the congregation to exclaim agreement, in others to follow the Scriptures referenced. In some traditions the sermon is followed by silent reflection on the message, in others a call to recommit lives to Christ by coming forward to the altar rail (especially common in High Church settings, it's called the Eucharist). In most traditions the word is enacted through liturgy and hymns. It's even permitted to discuss the sermon during the fellowship over coffee after the benediction.
All of that is missing when sitting reading a transcript of a sermon, or watching it on YouTube on your own. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with reading/watching on your own, it is just a lesser experience than being at church. It can complement attending worship and participating in the particular proclamation of the word, but only in extremis would be a replacement for that.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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L'organist
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posted by Brenda Clough
quote:
I knit quietly in the pew to keep from dozing off during the sermon.
When I was a young chorister we were instructed to use the sermon (which at Matins used to be anything up to 20 minutes) as an opportunity to learn a psalm. Yes, yes, I know we shouldn't have been encouraged to not listen, but in fact a surprising amount went in, along with the psalm being committed to memory.

Later in life I learned the value of choristers knowing the words of psalms in that it makes the singing of them far better, not just musically but also the meaning of the words.

So of course, I recommend the same 'use' of a sermon to my choristers now.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The particular gathering in the people of God participate in the proclamation of the word. It isn't a passive listening to someone speak, but an active participation in corporate worship. In some traditions it would be acceptable for the congregation to exclaim agreement, in others to follow the Scriptures referenced. In some traditions the sermon is followed by silent reflection on the message, in others a call to recommit lives to Christ by coming forward to the altar rail ...

Yes - but I tend to see this as an exercise in persuasion through the charisma of the preacher rather then the 'word' speaking for itself. I'm no longer worshipping in Church, merely observing.

I know, I'm bringing my own problems with faith and my skepticism to the experience and I'm sorry about that in more ways than one. These days if the sermon goes on too long or is too obviously 'selling' a line I find the pup urgently needs the loo and go out for a walk with her.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Expository preaching is the pride of Sydney Anglicanism. The sermon is a very lengthy lecture in which we are told how to interpret (in its plain and literal sense of course) a particular bible passage of the Presbyter's choosing.

I would be perfectly interested to read her sermons, or listen on the radio while doing something else. Sit and listen on a sunny Sunday morning? Nah, never.
I just choked on my coffee, the presbyter is never a "she" [Roll Eyes]


Oooops, sorry! Our last three ministers have been female so I tend to default to 'she'! [Hot and Hormonal]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Leaving aside the identity of the preacher, I have a wee problem with reading/listening to sermons outwith actually being in the congregation - or, at least, getting our only exposure to preaching that way.

My issue is that the sermon is a particular, participatory proclamation.

I couldn't agree more. There is also the sense - certainly in a Nonconformist or Reformed service - that the whole liturgy is devised and built up around the sermon and the text it is based on, thus highlighting and amplifying what the preacher is trying to say.
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SvitlanaV2
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I don't think most sermons are especially 'participatory', though. Not in the sense that anyone would recognise outside a church service. Yes, they give us food for thought - but so do lots of things. So would reading a copy of a sermon.
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