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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mystery Worshipper at Interlaken
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/3036.html
I was rather intrigued by the MW's description of this service as 'middle of the road', when Young Earth Creationism was promoted in the sermon, and the chaplain appeared to be wearing no liturgical vesture apart from red trousers and a clerical shirt.
My experience of the Diocese of Europe is that most chaplaincies are distinctly on the sunny side of MOTR: vestments, reservation, priests (when male) addressed as Father, and so on. I had heard of ICS, which seems counter to this; I wonder in which countries it is most prevalent?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2016/3036.html
I was rather intrigued by the MW's description of this service as 'middle of the road', when Young Earth Creationism was promoted in the sermon, and the chaplain appeared to be wearing no liturgical vesture apart from red trousers and a clerical shirt.
My experience of the Diocese of Europe is that most chaplaincies are distinctly on the sunny side of MOTR: vestments, reservation, priests (when male) addressed as Father, and so on. I had heard of ICS, which seems counter to this; I wonder in which countries it is most prevalent?
It sounds to me like a MOTR Church of England place with a "seasonal chaplain" who was of a very different theological persuasion and was modifying the chaplaincy's normal practice...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Could be. But I was under the impression that 'ICS' was a rather evangelical organisation which nevertheless might operate more MOTR chaplaincies. If it recruits chaplains (including locums) directly and not through the Diocese of Europe that might explain the theological tendencies of this one.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
The service was MOTR compared to one with tongues, worship choruses, and no defined structure. I wouldn't describe it as MOTR but I get what the mystery worshiper is saying. The service would be traditional low church if the chaplain wasn't wearing burgundy trousers.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
Burgundy trousers are presumably to show that he was Public School (at least I always find wearers of them are public school educated). Is this in line with what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments?
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Anyone have pictures of the burgundy trousers I am envisioning RCMP scarlet jackets, i.e., the red in this overpriced canvas which was displayed upside down, jacket for pants* when first displayed.
*pants = trousers in Canada. Underwear = gotch in western Canada, gitch to the east.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Burgundy is a darker shade of red than the scarlet of the RCMP jacket.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Burgundy trousers are presumably to show that he was Public School (at least I always find wearers of them are public school educated). Is this in line with what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments?
Burgundy would only be appropriate during Holy Week.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Burgundy is a darker shade of red than the scarlet of the RCMP jacket.
Yes, burgundy is the color of Burgundy wine, closer to maroon.
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Is this in line with what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments?
Can you briefly describe what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Bibaculus
Shipmate
# 18528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Is this in line with what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments?
Can you briefly describe what the General Synod was discussing concerning vestments? [/QB][/QUOTE]
The C of E journal of record, the daily mail, give full details
here.
In brief:
"The Church of England is to break with centuries of tradition by allowing vicars to swap clerical robes for casual attire at services.
"The General Synod gave preliminary approval to controversial new rules that would permit clergy to dress down for weddings, funerals and Sunday services so they can reach out to modern worshippers."
Being a modern worshiper, I feel far more at home with a priest in Burgandy cords, of course, rather than stuffy old vestments.
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A jumped up pantry boy who never knew his place
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Thanks.
When I read this part:
quote:
Several speakers said society was increasingly out of touch with the traditions of the Church and they had seen people laughing at bishops dressed in elaborate copes (long cloaks) with mitres on their heads.
I couldn't help but think that surely there are vestment options and possibilities somewhere between overdone bishops and anything goes—except, of course, anything unseemly.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Angled:
quote:
My experience of the Diocese of Europe is that most chaplaincies are distinctly on the sunny side of MOTR: vestments, reservation, priests (when male) addressed as Father, and so on. I had heard of ICS, which seems counter to this; I wonder in which countries it is most prevalent?
My wife's cousin was Churchwarden at a Diocese of Europe church in Germany and it was very definitely Evangelical in Churchpersonship. The service I attended was a service of the word, the priest wore a suit and blue clerical collar. The only concession to catholicity was a recognition that Michaelmas had fallen that week and so the Holy Angels and Archangels got a mention in the sermon. I did rather wonder if I could get away with abandoning the family and attend Mass at a rather lovely Baroque Catholic Church not far away, but felt that to do so might have rather annoyed Mrs C.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My experience is mixed. I have a friend who formerly ministered in two different locations with the DofE (and also did summer residencies in Zermatt, Switzerland); he is a straight-down-the-line Evangelical and now a Rector in England.
On a couple of holidays in Budapest some years ago we found a much more MOTR approach (with High Church leanings) - I well remember the Chaplain asking the congregation's permission to remove one small part of his vestments on a boiling hot day when everyone else was clothed in light shirts or blouses and the like. (We readily agreed as we were all worried he would drop dead of heat-stroke).
Worship last year in Madeira was fairly "central" with definite Evangelical tendencies. This year, in Northern Cyprus, we were not able to worship but did visit the church in Girne (Kyrenia) - there was no sight of the Reserved Sacrament but the racks on the chairbacks boasted copies of "Mission Praise" and the NRSV Bible, which were suggestive. They also advertised "Alpha" courses. (However I've just remembered that this isn't part of the Diocese of Europe but of Cyprus and the Gulf!)
I would have thought that the "churchmanship" (is one still allowed to say that?) reflects both the tradition of each church and the particular make-up of the local expatriate community. This, I imagine, would vary according to location: is it primarily diplomatic staff, business folk, educational, holiday-makers, retirees? Surely this must have an effect.
[ 28. July 2016, 17:02: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
PS I was going to do a Mystery Worshipper of the Madeira (Funchal) church last year but found that someone else had already done one - their experience very much mirrored ours although with different Clergy. Look it up if you're interested!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Burgundy is a darker shade of red than the scarlet of the RCMP jacket.
I have a preaching gown which, from the swatch of material and the picture in the catalogue, appeared to be a Burgundy colour. This, by the way, was not chosen for any liturgical significance but because it would nicely match the colour of our church's doors.
When the gown arrived it was MUCH redder, so much so that it caused a minor sensation when I first wore it! Now, several years on, folk rather like it - and it has slightly faded, too.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I think there is something of a cleavage in churchmanship in the Diocese in Europe. The ICS holds the patronage [PDF] to several chaplaincies. So for example in Paris, you have St Michael's, which is an ICS chaplaincy and definitely slants Evangelical, and the Anglo-Catholic St George's, which is held by something called FACEA which I can't decipher but assume is a corporation sympathetic to its tradition.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Interesting! As I suspected, the ICS chaplaincies are very few and far between in southern Europe, and tend to predominate in the Netherlands and Switzerland. Which is an interesting reversal to the often-expressed theory that Anglicans veer high in more protestant cultures (e.g. Scotland) and low in catholic ones (Ireland, even Liverpool).
The last few bishops of Gibraltar in Europe have been anglo-catholic; the present one is clearly much more evangelical. It will be interesting to see if that is reflected in the patronage.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
They hold Aquitaine though. The Cathars may be down but they are clearly not out!
Meanwhile Dusseldorf is Church Society territory. A conversation with the (very nice) locum at the time (over a decade ago) comes flooding back to me.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
PS I was going to do a Mystery Worshipper of the Madeira (Funchal) church last year but found that someone else had already done one - their experience very much mirrored ours although with different Clergy. Look it up if you're interested!
When we went there 5 years ago now, it was grim. For the first time ever we didn't stay until the end.
I'm happy to worship in traditions different from my own but this was a smug fest for some Royal occasion or another. It wasn't remotely evangelical nor did it contain anything close to
gospel proclamation.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Hmmm ... I think that can be the problem with expat. Chaplaincies, they can become the focus for all sorts of "civic" events which have a habit of raising our Baptist hackles! For the record, when we were there, we had a good sermon and finished with a particularly rousing rendition of "And can it be"!
I had a bad experience many years ago at a Good Friday service in Dakar, Senegal. The Ambassador read the lesson and he gave the impression of clearly having started imbibing well before the sun had reached the yardarm. (On our next visit to Dakar we went to a Southern Baptist service which our American friends said, "You won't like" - they were right!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I was going to do a Mystery Worshipper of the Madeira (Funchal) church last year but found that someone else had already done one.
When we went there 5 years ago now, it was grim.
The previous MW report seems overwhelmingly positive.
We do not discourage repeat reports if some time has elapsed between the two visits or if the two services were radically different.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Hmmm ... I think that can be the problem with expat. Chaplaincies, they can become the focus for all sorts of "civic" events which have a habit of raising our Baptist hackles!
Civic religion raises my Anglo Catholic hackles as well.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Having just returned from a stint of chaplaincy work in Italy, I can see how 'civic religion' (or at least nostalgic patriotism expressed in liturgical form) could be a strong temptation for an 'English' community in exile. It didn't exist where I was, because the Anglican congregation is so diverse, with expat British being a very small minority. Africans, Americans, Chinese... the church is a natural home for those whose first or second language is English, and who are Christian but not Roman Catholic.
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I have visited over the past years quite a lot of
Anglican Churches on the European Continent.
Most of them of U.K.origin,but also some founded by the US Anglicans/Episcopalians,like the magnificent Cathedral of the Holy Trinity in Paris.
Furthermore,I should not forget to mention the
Churches in Florence and Rome.All of them quite high,both English and American and excellent in music and liturgy.
I am afraid that I am not so positive on the Anglican churches in the Benelux,the only exception is St.Bonifice in Antwerp a lovely church in the Anglican Catholic tradition.
Most of them in the other cities in Belgium and the Netherlands,are Lowchurch/Evangelical many of them them lacking a good liturgical style.
I am often asking myself are Anglican Evangelicals really interested in liturgy, or is it not of big importance ?
As already mentioned the current Bishop is an Evangelical,
who invited the Archbishop of Utrecht,(Union of Utrecht) to take part in his consecration at Canterbury cathedral.Perhaps to add a catholic touch ?
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Robert Kennedy
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Ah, the famous "Dutch Touch" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[Nostalgic patriotism] didn't exist where I was, because the Anglican congregation is so diverse, with expat British being a very small minority. Africans, Americans, Chinese... the church is a natural home for those whose first or second language is English, and who are Christian but not Roman Catholic.
I wonder if such diversity in Anglican chaplaincies makes congregations more or less likely to be Anglo-Catholic, or whether it has any influence at all.
Some large, non-Anglophone cities around the world surely now offer a number of non-Anglican, English-speaking congregations. Does the presence of such churches influence the flavour of the local Anglican chaplaincy, or are historical factors more relevant?
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Ah, the famous "Dutch Touch"
Which, with carefully-written (in Latin) protocols and procedures, was a response (IMHO, a good one) to Leo XIII's rationale in Apostolicæ Curæ, but which has entered into the world of mootfulness on account of the diminishing capacity of Anglican hierarchs to articulate the rationale or even to understand the Latin, as well as a whole lot of other concerns (threads passim, in Dead Horses and other places).
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Ah, the famous "Dutch Touch"
Which, with carefully-written (in Latin) protocols and procedures, was a response (IMHO, a good one) to Leo XIII's rationale in Apostolicæ Curæ, but which has entered into the world of mootfulness on account of the diminishing capacity of Anglican hierarchs to articulate the rationale or even to understand the Latin, as well as a whole lot of other concerns (threads passim, in Dead Horses and other places).
I would be surprised if an Evangelical Bishop of the Church of England felt strongly that his orders ought to be, in some way, acceptable to the See of Rome (an issue of vastly more salience to the See of Rome than anybody in communion with the See of Canterbury). I suspect that it was more to do with some kind of Euro-Bish solidarity. AIUI, the Dutch Touch, is even more unacceptable to Rome on the grounds that "girls have cooties", than it once was, so I can't imagine that it was very much a consideration when the decision was made.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Callan writes:
quote:
I would be surprised if an Evangelical Bishop of the Church of England felt strongly that his orders ought to be, in some way, acceptable to the See of Rome
At the time (1930s), they were, and in large numbers. Evangelical thought at the time is nowhere near that which is about these days. Historically, evangelicism à la CoE was far more BCP and order-oriented than it is now-- to put it briefly, bishops of the period were quite focussed on the universal nature of their orders and (as once tonguecheekingly expressed to me by the late RPC Hanson of Clogher) dissenters and popish dissenters were expected to treat Anglican bishops as the standard from which they were deviating.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Callan writes:
quote:
I would be surprised if an Evangelical Bishop of the Church of England felt strongly that his orders ought to be, in some way, acceptable to the See of Rome
At the time (1930s), they were, and in large numbers. Evangelical thought at the time is nowhere near that which is about these days. Historically, evangelicism à la CoE was far more BCP and order-oriented than it is now-- to put it briefly, bishops of the period were quite focussed on the universal nature of their orders and (as once tonguecheekingly expressed to me by the late RPC Hanson of Clogher) dissenters and popish dissenters were expected to treat Anglican bishops as the standard from which they were deviating.
No doubt. But the current Bishop of Europe wasn't consecrated in the 1930s and the current valuation of the Dutch Touch was devalued by Rome from "valid but illicit" to "invalid" when the Old Catholics started ordaining women.
I could add, "since when were the 1930s some kind of glory era?" but I'll save that for one of the Trump or Corbyn threads. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Callan posts: quote:
I could add, "since when were the 1930s some kind of glory era?" but I'll save that for one of the Trump or Corbyn threads.
I never claimed that they were better, as I am firmly in agreement with an historian friend who, when asked about the good old days, responds that there are no good old days and two words prove it-- dentistry and obstetrics; but they were different! As far as the other neigh!! neigh!! topics are concerned, Callan's observations are not without merit.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Callan writes:
quote:
I would be surprised if an Evangelical Bishop of the Church of England felt strongly that his orders ought to be, in some way, acceptable to the See of Rome
At the time (1930s), they were, and in large numbers. Evangelical thought at the time is nowhere near that which is about these days. Historically, evangelicism à la CoE was far more BCP and order-oriented than it is now-- to put it briefly, bishops of the period were quite focussed on the universal nature of their orders and (as once tonguecheekingly expressed to me by the late RPC Hanson of Clogher) dissenters and popish dissenters were expected to treat Anglican bishops as the standard from which they were deviating.
A decidedly non-evangelical Anglican priest I know describes them as prayer-book evangelicals. It's the traditional Anglicanism in which so many of us in Sydney and elsewhere grew up - decency and dignity in the liturgy and Calvinism in the preaching.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
How wonderful to find a quote from Richard Hanson - my tutor at university.
The ecumenical dimension of the Diocese in Europe is complex- I have taught ordinands from there who have opted for permanent diaconate for 'ecumenical' reasons -i.e. they were female or married. (And were in majority Roman Catholic or Orthodox countries).
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Even though the Archdeacon of Italy and Malta is female!
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Indeed and a good thing too (for the diocese). I refer you to my signature!
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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