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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We don't remember that.
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jerrytheorganist
Shipmate
# 4720
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Posted
This morning I was the organist at middle of nowhere United Methodist. We sang a good old Wesley hymn "And can it be...." I've been organist of this church for over 20 years and know I've played this song hundreds of times.
This morning three people stopped me and asked,"who picks these songs we don't know?,,, I've never heard that song before why did we pick it??? "
My question to you dear shippys is what do you do with methodists who can't remember Wesley hymns? In broader terms what can you do for a church that has forgotten its musical roots?
Posts: 94 | From: Plainville, Kansas, United States | Registered: Jul 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
This is a lovely topic, but since it concerns worship practice it is an Ecclesiantics topic.
(Hums "O for a thousand tongues .." as transfer arranged.)
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Could it be these people are, shall we say, forgetful?
Today I teased our choir director about having an anthem that seemed to have been lifted out of Godspell. He said he would have to listen to it again.
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jerrytheorganist
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# 4720
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Posted
I'm not really sure what happened. Two of the three people who stopped me this morning had been in a choir 10 years ago where we sang this song and lots of other old Wesley tunes.
Maybe we just have too much to choose from. We have the UMC hymnal and two supplements not to mention all the crp//stuff from "ccli song select."
We used to have a core of songs that most knew and could really sing,, but now it seems no one knows jack about anything and want to be spoon fed toddler songs.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
I have a number of hobby horses (no, it's true), and one of them is that "And can it be.." should NOT be bellowed from the word go like a football club song, as it so often is.
If anyone actually pays any attention to the words, they will realise that it begins on a contemplative note and builds gradually and skilfully to a climax in the last verse, which CAN be sung with a modicum of verve and gusto.
As to your actual point, it is not just Methodists who have sold their hymnal heritage for a mess of pottage in the form of instantly forgettable so-called "praise and worship" songs with crap tunes and crap lyrics.
[ 01. August 2016, 01:14: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I actually dislike And Can It Be, mainly because it is usually sung to Sagina which is a very poor piece of musical writing in my opinion with its unmelodic leaps that the congregation struggles to sing. Maybe some people choose another tune which might make it more singable. As it is I cringe every time we have to sing it to Sagina.
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
I like "And can it be", and Godspell, and John Michael Talbot, and Andrae Crouch and the Disciples, and Bach, and Tallis, Judith May, and Handel, and "I have the joy, joy, joy, joy down in my heart", and various forms of chant, and Taize music, and the Cat Stevens version of "Morning has broken", and on and on.
Have the people in the OP been going to that church long? Do they have a church background, and in what kind of church? My old fundamentalist church started with a thick handbook of standard hymns, plus various choruses learned by rote; and eventually added a book of mixed praise songs and hymns. I picked up on lots of other stuff on my own.
I don't know what the usual protocol is in your church, but maybe use a variety of music and genres (if you aren't already)? FWIW, YMMV.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
Maybe we just have too much to choose from. We have the UMC hymnal and two supplements not to mention all the crp//stuff from "ccli song select."
I think that's the nub of the problem, and there's an age issue too: older folk are more likely to know the traditional hymns while younger ones may have been raised on a diet of worship songs. Also allied is the fact (in the UK anyway) that many people move from denomination to denomination so never get to know their specific hymnodies.
As it happens, we sang "And can it be" (lustily) yesterday evening at a united Baptist service in my town. But I've only sung it twice before in the last four years: one at our son's wedding (it's a hymn he loves) in a country parish church in Dvon; and last summer, at the close of worship in Holy Trinity church, Funchal, Madeira!
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
British Methodism wouldn't dream of dropping old classics like 'And Can It Be'.
One reason for this is the circuit system (which I believe no longer exists in the American UMC). Circuits mean that lay preachers and ministers are shared locally, which makes it convenient to have a stock of hymns that all the preachers and churches know.
Another reason is the demographics. British Methodists are likely to be older than their American counterparts and so less willing to overhaul their hymnody to the extent that you see elsewhere, although the new hymnbook does try to incorporate some worship songs.
It's also relevant that the charismatic revival had less impact on British Methodism than on many other British denominations. Therefore, AFAIK, there's never been a big trend towards the worship band and related music.
I'm sure there are Methodist congregations that sing very little Charles Wesley, but their age profile and their status within the local circuit are likely to be very distinctive.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right, my research of congregations suggested that the two I was with could sing somewhere in the region 400 hymns. They sang about 200 to my knowledge over the two years I was there and 50% of them on the normal Sunday at the end of my placement had not been sung during the previous two years.
I suspect that the actual repertoire was probably around 600, the final 200 made up of hymns that enough knew to sing but which had never been used in worship.
The problem is common core. Back in the days when Methodists moved to Methodist churches there was a common core across Methodism. That no longer holds. You get a wide range of hymns in the congregation many from other traditions than that of the host congregation.
Thus the common core now is more like BBC top 100 hymns than the denominational hymnbook.
Jengie
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
'And Can It Be' is in the list of core hymns!! That's good.
Regarding British Methodists switching to other denominations, I suppose this is likely to happen because so many Methodist churches are closing. Their older members may end up in mainstream CofE or URC settings. Some young Methodists may leave home and turn to charismatic churches, where the hymnody is going to be radically different.
The new British Methodist hymnbook, 'Singing the Faith', claims to be an attempt to bridge the gap between the hymnody/worship music of different Protestant traditions, but I don't know how successful people think it's been in that respect.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have people like that in our congregation too: it doesn't matter what the hymn, there'll be someone who either claims not to know it or who doesn't like your choice. Just this year a regular complained that the music for the first Sunday of Lent was "too downbeat" ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I reckon that we use about 450-500 hymns over the course of 2 years; the number is quite high because I don't like repeating a hymn.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well as the Anglicans have the prayer book to determine their theology the two sources for Methodist are:
- Sermons of John Wesley
- The hymns of Charles Wesley
Jengie
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What to do with Methodists who can't/won't remember Wesley hymns?
Lash them to a chair and give them 24 hours straight of Graham Kendrick, interspersed with Taize chants, and that frightful Thank you, Lord* on the hour, every hour: they'll be begging to learn Wesley by rote after that. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
* www.youtube.com/watch?v=njsdfxK9FcQ
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
But all that sounds so 1970s/80s. Although I'm not au fait with much of it, modern worship music has moved on a great deal since then. And, whether we like it or not, it enables many Christians to articulate their faith in song.
[ 01. August 2016, 12:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
When I was a school chaplain, I used to put "Christ triumphant" down at least once every half term for no other reason than I like it and if you have the job of choosing hymns you can jolly well choose your own favourites every now and then. I swear that every single time we sang it the HM would say to me as we left Chapel "Do we know that hymn?"
The upside was that whenever I did use a hymn we hadn't sung before (which meant she automatically wouldn't like it) and she queried it, I could say in surprised tones, "Oh yes! We've sung it many times!" and she'd believe me.
Other people's forgetfulness is but an opportunity...
[ 01. August 2016, 12:46: Message edited by: Teekeey Misha ]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
My question to you dear shippys is what do you do with methodists who can't remember Wesley hymns? In broader terms what can you do for a church that has forgotten its musical roots?
I was about to faithlessly proclaim that there is no way back from this. Close the church and send them all to the Baptist, the Evangelical, the Brethren or anywhere else even the pub.
Then I thought we must not believe all hope is lost. I would commission a series of sermons outlining the life and works of Wesley, with references to key moments linked to the essential hymns which would be sung on a regular basis until they were brain-stem reflexes, where they deserve to be.
As for Sagina being a pub-song, poorly written and a-melodic... well I guess it is a little naff in spots, especially the bit where it rolls up the major triads in the chorus on one syllable per triad, but like so many well-worn familiar items its imperfections seem only to enhance the experience.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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jerrytheorganist
Shipmate
# 4720
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Posted
Thank you all for reassuring me that I'm not nuts.
I like the chair idea.
Oh and the three peoples have been methodist all their lives so they should know how to be Methodists and sing methodist tunes.
Posts: 94 | From: Plainville, Kansas, United States | Registered: Jul 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Some Methodist churches just like to show off!! I once went to one place whose usual thing was to use two tunes for the one hymn, alternating verses. The congregation were well into it - but it was not what you might call visitor-friendly!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As for Sagina being a pub-song, poorly written and a-melodic... well I guess it is a little naff in spots, especially the bit where it rolls up the major triads in the chorus on one syllable per triad, but like so many well-worn familiar items its imperfections seem only to enhance the experience.
I do wish that people wouldn't come over all "posh" with music such as this. It surely belongs to that particular school of fairly rustic and homespun fugueing music which was very popular in Methodism (and elsewhere) in the 1800s. It has been popularised by folk such as Peter Holman and Psalmody, also by the various West Gallery Quires which exist around the country. Just like the worship music of today, it enabled congregations (possibly with little musical sophistication) to express their praise to God.
[ 01. August 2016, 15:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
My question to you dear shippys is what do you do with methodists who can't remember Wesley hymns?
Why does it matter?
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Well as the Anglicans have the prayer book to determine their theology the two sources for Methodist are:
- Sermons of John Wesley
- The hymns of Charles Wesley
I wonder to what extent this is true of American Methodism? I was reading somewhere that American Methodists didn't specifically take on a great deal from John Wesley's theology. And if they're singing less and less of Charles Wesley these days (probably as a result of the culturally dominant worship music scene in the USA) that's not necessarily going to provide the foundation of their theology either.
The extent to which these two men still dominate worldwide Methodism(s) theologically as well as emotionally and culturally is an interesting question.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
As for Sagina being a pub-song, poorly written and a-melodic... well I guess it is a little naff in spots, especially the bit where it rolls up the major triads in the chorus on one syllable per triad, but like so many well-worn familiar items its imperfections seem only to enhance the experience.
I do wish that people wouldn't come over all "posh" with music such as this. It surely belongs to that particular school of fairly rustic and homespun fugueing music which was very popular in Methodism (and elsewhere) in the 1800s. It has been popularised by folk such as Peter Holman and Psalmody, also by the various West Gallery Quires which exist around the country. Just like the worship music of today, it enabled congregations (possibly with little musical sophistication) to express their praise to God.
I find it fascinating that it could be designed to make singing easy, because I find it the hardest hymn to sing! I always feel like you need to be initiated into the secret mysteries of when to sing which bit.
I have discussed this with clergy friends and I am apparently the only one who feels this.
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
I am delighted that "And can it be" to Sagina and many other traditional Methodist hymns by Charles Wesley are being sung more regularly in the Anglican church. Unfortunately we are also seeing some of the Graham Kendrick oeuvre finding its was into MOTR Anglican worship.
It is interesting to look at the original versions of Charles Wesley's hymns - Cyber Hymnal has the full texts. The current versions are considerably shorter that the originals. Clearly modern congregations have less stamina that those in the 18th century.
I am always disappointed that "O for a thousand tongues to sing" in modern hymnals no longer includes the verse about publicans & harlots!
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The "murderers and all ye hellish crew" verse which comes next runs it pretty close!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gwalchmai
Can you think of any particular reason why hymns like C. Wesley's 'And can it be' have become more popular in the CofE?
I don't think it's exactly the theological content itself that resonates most powerfully with MOTR congregations, but a range of factors.
(The jokey comments about 'publicans', 'harlots' and 'murderers' etc also suggest that the theology isn't necessarily the thing....)
[ 01. August 2016, 22:08: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
I have no idea why we are now singing more of the rousing Wesley hymns in the C of E. Is it choices made by the editors of the hymnals? Perhaps a clergy shipmate might be able to enlighten us.
For me it is nothing to do with the theology - I don't actually agree with much of the theology in "And can it be" (but I have a always held slightly heretical views). For me it is the wonderful language and imagery coupled with a rousing tune.
As to my light-herted comments, I always see the funny side of church. No organisation that is worth belonging to should be taken too seriously.
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
This has been an interesting thread for me to read, as I am totally unfamiliar with "And Can It Be." I had to look it up, both in the UMC hymnal and on YouTube, and it rings no bells at all. Of course, I've never been a Methodist.
There are 13 Wesley hymns in the current Presbyterian (PC(USA)) hymnal, but "And Can It Be" isn't among them. I've looked in older hymnals going back almost 100 years—not there.
But it makes me wonder something a little different from but related to the OP: What hymns are historically central to our tradition that might be unknown outside our tradition, unfamiliar to "newer" Presbyterians, or perhaps becoming less familiar because they're being pushed aside by other music? Metrical psalms come to mind. Perhaps they're our Wesley hymns—some are widely sung by others, but others aren't.
An interesting question—and challenge—for all hymn-singing traditions.
[ 01. August 2016, 22:49: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
The "murderers and all ye hellish crew" verse which comes next runs it pretty close!
In holy triumph join. The same line for harlots and publicans. Anyone who can join with harlots, publicans, thieves, murderers and hellish crew in holy triumph has sound theology in my book.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Very sound indeed. Quite glorious and I'd gladly sing it. I think the line about 'washing the Aethiop white' might be more problematic nowadays, but that's in another verse.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I deliberately forgot to mention that ... although, of course, it is a direct reference to Scripture (Isaiah, I think) which might be considered more problematic.
Mind you, it makes me think of Rudyard Kipling and "How the Leopard Got his Spots".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
My question to you dear shippys is what do you do with methodists who can't remember Wesley hymns?
Why does it matter?
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Well as the Anglicans have the prayer book to determine their theology the two sources for Methodist are:
- Sermons of John Wesley
- The hymns of Charles Wesley
I wonder to what extent this is true of American Methodism? I was reading somewhere that American Methodists didn't specifically take on a great deal from John Wesley's theology. And if they're singing less and less of Charles Wesley these days (probably as a result of the culturally dominant worship music scene in the USA) that's not necessarily going to provide the foundation of their theology either.
The extent to which these two men still dominate worldwide Methodism(s) theologically as well as emotionally and culturally is an interesting question.
But American Anglicans also sat lighter to the Book of Common Prayer.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
If you want how many URC newbies would be familiar with How pleased and blest was I? It is a Watt's Christian metricization of Psalm 122, and the rallying hymn of English Congregationalism in at least the mid-twentieth century.
Then there is We limit not the truth of God which I think it may still be fairly well known in America, but outside URC, Congregational, and Baptist circles, is little known. By the was, if I recall correctly, George Rawson's teenage congregation was actually the same as mine. It shows what a small world Congregationalism was even at its height.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I deliberately forgot to mention that ... although, of course, it is a direct reference to Scripture (Isaiah, I think) which might be considered more problematic.
Mind you, it makes me think of Rudyard Kipling and "How the Leopard Got his Spots".
Yes indeed. I think I did twig that it's a scriptural reference, so I'm not that worked up about it, but given that it's not in the version that's usually sung, nowadays, I don't think I'd take the trouble to restore it unless it was for some 'historically accurate' period occasion. Whereas I would very happily restore the 'harlots and publicans' and 'murderers and hellish crew' verses, overall considerations of length permitting.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I have no idea why we are now singing more of the rousing Wesley hymns in the C of E. Is it choices made by the editors of the hymnals? Perhaps a clergy shipmate might be able to enlighten us.
For me it is nothing to do with the theology - I don't actually agree with much of the theology in "And can it be" (but I have a always held slightly heretical views). For me it is the wonderful language and imagery coupled with a rousing tune.
As to my light-hearted comments, I always see the funny side of church. No organisation that is worth belonging to should be taken too seriously.
Interesting. Maybe the editors have included it for those same reasons - nice tune, and rousing. Its traditional feel probably appeals to the MOTR British demographic, even if they're not Methodists.
I'm conflicted about this, though. I do find it problematic for Christians to attend church and routinely sing hymns whose theology they don't (want to) share. From a Methodist point of view, that undermines the whole idea of 'singing the faith'; and it disturbs my understanding of what 'worship' means. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if our sermons and church groups openly explored the reality of a post-theological worshipping culture. But they don't....
As for 'the funny side of church', that's not something I find important when I'm actually worshipping. I suppose it's a question of what we need church to do for us. For me, laughing at (not with) a hymn while I'm singing it is only going to distance me from what I'd like to achieve, which is some kind of spiritual engagement with God.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Then there is We limit not the truth of God which I think it may still be fairly well known in America, but outside URC, Congregational, and Baptist circles, is little known.
This is another one that I had to look up because it's unfamiliar to me.
I don't know that it's too widely-known over here. As best I can tell, only 3 American denominational hymnals include it—the hymnals of the United Church of Christ (makes sense given their Congregational background), the Episcopal Church (to a tune by Handl, though) and the Community of Christ (a small Latter-day Saints group).
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Nick Tamen
You probably at least know a quote from it in that it is almost certainly the source for More Light Presbyterians. Yes, it is supposed to be a phrase of the address given to the Pilgrim Fathers when they left Plymouth. The problem is that I am almost certain a transcript of that address does not exist. I eventually traced the passage I think the paraphrase in the hymn was from and it was in if I recall correctly a description of the role of John Robinson and in context is certainly less open to the use the More Light Presbyterians have put it too.
The popularising then is through the hymn.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I would very happily restore the 'harlots and publicans' and 'murderers and hellish crew' verses [to 'O, for a thousand tongues to sing'], overall considerations of length permitting.
Would you sing those verses for fun, or do you feel they add something else to the hymn?
After all, the CofE doesn't have any particular problem with 'publicans' these days, and 'harlots' are more likely to be viewed as victims rather than 'sinners' who need to be 'saved'. (Of course, the whole idea of sinners needing to be saved is also questionable in modern mainstream theology, but it does add to the drama and poetry of old hymns.)
'Aethiops' may take offense at being washed white, but then the whole hymn could cause offense to a range of people. That's why it's only sung in a shortened version.
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Some time ago I read an article put out by a worship minister of a large mega church. Sorry I cannot find it, I tried.
This minister said while he originally started out with praise music he found it pretty hollow. He also sensed that people wanted something more in depth.
He started inserting more traditional music in the service and found people really appreciated it. In particular the younger people liked to learn the old standards of his denomination.
He now tries for a balance of new and traditional. He is pleased with the substance the older hymns provide. And he is looking for modern hymns that also have substance.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Nick Tamen
You probably at least know a quote from it in that it is almost certainly the source for More Light Presbyterians. Yes, it is supposed to be a phrase of the address given to the Pilgrim Fathers when they left Plymouth.
I am indeed familiar with the phrase, and that phrase certainly caught my eye when I looked up the hymn.
But I'm not at all familiar with the hymn—I can't find it in any Presbyterian hymnals—and my first thought was how interesting, in light of More Light Presbyterians, that this hymn is largely unknown to us. If I had to guess, my guess would be that those who chose the name More Light Presbyterians in 1992 (when predecessor organizations merged) were influenced by Presbyterian-UCC ecumenical connections, which are very strong in many places. Even without the hymn I would guess that—John Robinson and the Pilgrims aren't part of our heritage, but they are part of UCC heritage. (To be honest, I've always found it interesting that the group chose a name that had more resonance in another tradition than in ours. Compare the Covenant Network of Presbyterians on that point.)
FWIW, I've never heard the hymn mentioned in connection with the source of the name (though the Wiki does talk about it); I've always heard the source given directly as Robinson. Perhaps the hymn never got mentioned in connection with the source of the name because most Presbyterians are unfamiliar with the hymn?
All very interesting.
[ 02. August 2016, 16:16: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I would very happily restore the 'harlots and publicans' and 'murderers and hellish crew' verses [to 'O, for a thousand tongues to sing'], overall considerations of length permitting.
Would you sing those verses for fun, or do you feel they add something else to the hymn?
After all, the CofE doesn't have any particular problem with 'publicans' these days, and 'harlots' are more likely to be viewed as victims rather than 'sinners' who need to be 'saved'. (Of course, the whole idea of sinners needing to be saved is also questionable in modern mainstream theology, but it does add to the drama and poetry of old hymns.)
'Aethiops' may take offense at being washed white, but then the whole hymn could cause offense to a range of people. That's why it's only sung in a shortened version.
Oh, I think they add to the hymn's wonderful sense of the joy and liberation and boundless breadth and transformative power of God's love.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
True, but the examples in the hymn don't focus on the kinds of people that modern mainstream Christians think really need 'transforming' (other than the murderers, of course). From a modern pluralistic perspective it might be better, if only pastorally, to draw a veil over random trades and professions....
[ 02. August 2016, 16:34: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I think the vigour and gusto of Wesley's words carry it off.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
When our much loved Anglo Catholic Fr John gave his final Mass before retiring, he chose And Can It Be as one of his 'means a great deal to me' hymns, and it was sung very lustily.
But our (equally high) deacon asked me sniffily if that 'thing' was by Sankey and Moody. Shows something, I suppose.
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God's on holiday.
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Adrian Plass
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Well, I suppose 'vigour and gusto', so long as they're cloaked in some delightful, old-fashioned poetry, will cover a multitude of theological and PC sins - so long as you've got the right crowd in!
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Gwalchmai
Shipmate
# 17802
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Posted
quote:
As for 'the funny side of church', that's not something I find important when I'm actually worshipping. I suppose it's a question of what we need church to do for us. For me, laughing at (not with) a hymn while I'm singing it is only going to distance me from what I'd like to achieve, which is some kind of spiritual engagement with God.
The key word in my post about the lighter side of church was "organisation". In this world the Kingdom of God is mediated through an all too human organisation with the pride, hypocrisy, pomposity and other sins that go with being human. We can laugh or despair.
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Unrelated to Methodism, I remember asking the organist at one church I was involved with to play 'Ye Who Own The Faith Of Jesus'. His immediate response was to say the congregation do not know it until he checked his hymn book and discovered that he had put a note down next to the hymn about the correct tempo. I've had subsequent conversations along the lines of "we don't know that hymn" "yes we do, we played it last year" with organists, choirs and congregations.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
quote:
As for 'the funny side of church', that's not something I find important when I'm actually worshipping. I suppose it's a question of what we need church to do for us. For me, laughing at (not with) a hymn while I'm singing it is only going to distance me from what I'd like to achieve, which is some kind of spiritual engagement with God.
The key word in my post about the lighter side of church was "organisation". In this world the Kingdom of God is mediated through an all too human organisation with the pride, hypocrisy, pomposity and other sins that go with being human. We can laugh or despair.
But the organisation is one thing; the songs we sing in praise of God are something else.
Or are they?
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
After all, the CofE doesn't have any particular problem with 'publicans' these days, and 'harlots' are more likely to be viewed as victims rather than 'sinners' who need to be 'saved'.
Terms such as "harlot", "whore" , and even "prostitute", are becoming increasingly problematical, with a growing insistence that "sex worker" is the only acceptable designation.
I grew up in a a strongly anti-RC environment in which there were regular references to "the Harlot on the Seven Hills" (Revelation 17:1-9).
"The Sex Worker on the Seven Hills" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
As to the regular tune to And Can It Be, while I am fond of it because I grew up with it, I agree that it is not ideal, with too many double notes on one-syllable words.
My favourite rendition of it is on an old CD of hymns by Maddy Prior and the Carnival Band, called Sing Lustily And With Good Courage.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by jerrytheorganist:
My question to you dear shippys is what do you do with methodists who can't remember Wesley hymns?
Why does it matter?
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Well as the Anglicans have the prayer book to determine their theology the two sources for Methodist are:
- Sermons of John Wesley
- The hymns of Charles Wesley
I wonder to what extent this is true of American Methodism? I was reading somewhere that American Methodists didn't specifically take on a great deal from John Wesley's theology. And if they're singing less and less of Charles Wesley these days (probably as a result of the culturally dominant worship music scene in the USA) that's not necessarily going to provide the foundation of their theology either.
The extent to which these two men still dominate worldwide Methodism(s) theologically as well as emotionally and culturally is an interesting question.
My dear departed paternal grandmother, may her memory be eternal, was a Presbyterian. Her equally feisty sister (mhmbe2) was a Methodist. They loved to sit together and argue the finer points of Wesleyanism versus Calvinism, and they knew their stuff.
I'm not sure if today your average American Presbyterian and average American Methodist would know the details of the differences those two theological systems, or care.
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