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Source: (consider it) Thread: We don't remember that.
Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure if today your average American Presbyterian and average American Methodist would know the details of the differences those two theological systems, or care.

That was the situation here in Australia for many decades before the Presbyterians and Methodists finally hooked up in 1977 to form the so-called Uniting Church, and totter off into insignificance together.

Back in the interwar years of the early C20 my maternal grand-father, a farmer of Cornish Methodist stock, happily served as a Presbyterian "lay missioner", and my mother recalled the Presbyterians' and Methodists' promiscuously sharing their services and facilities in the small rural town in which she grew up.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure if today your average American Presbyterian and average American Methodist would know the details of the differences those two theological systems, or care.

I think you can be pretty sure, at least as to the average American Presbyterian knowing the details of the differences. I can't speak for Methodists.

As for caring, I wouldn't write that completely off. My experience is that average Presbies in the pews are interested in those distinctives—at least some of them—or at least like learning about them when the opportunity presents. But I think the stakes are different from what they were for our grandparents, if that's the right way to say it. It's less about who's right and who's wrong and more about appreciating different perspectives, and perhaps some sense of history and "who we are." If that makes sense.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

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Perfect sense.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by andras:
When our much loved Anglo Catholic Fr John gave his final Mass before retiring, he chose And Can It Be as one of his 'means a great deal to me' hymns, and it was sung very lustily.

But our (equally high) deacon asked me sniffily if that 'thing' was by Sankey and Moody. Shows something, I suppose.

Growing up CofE in the 1950s and 60s, And can it be was not part of the tradition. The prevailing attitude in the CofE to hymns that were cheerful, expressive or fun to sing was very much in line with the sniffy deacon - 'if I'd known we were going to have something like that, I'd have brought my tambourine' or 'the sort of thing they sing in chapels'. I didn't encounter it until a young adult.

A lot of this goes back to the editors of the first edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern of 1861. They saw it as part of their mission to eject the more florid and ebullient music that until then our forbears had sung in churches, often accompanied by bands rather than nice, seemly organs.

As the Methodists were beyond their reach, some of that music survived in chapels, though as time passed, there was a tendency towards musical politeness there too.

I'd say that And can it be is now very widespread, well known and popular, though people do get confused as to which repeat they are supposed to sing, which are the male and female lines.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
though people do get confused as to which repeat they are supposed to sing, which are the male and female lines.

The same confusion happens with a thousand tongues, where everyone seems to jump into the first male bar of the chorus, but usually manage to split up after that.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
though people do get confused as to which repeat they are supposed to sing, which are the male and female lines.

The same confusion happens with a thousand tongues, where everyone seems to jump into the first male bar of the chorus, but usually manage to split up after that.
There are male and female lines to either? (Other than the harmonies by part rather than gender)
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Baptist Trainfan
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Perhaps I could butt in and explain that this is the tune "Lyngham" not "University", "Nativity" or "Lydia" which can also be used.

See this link.

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mdijon
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Male voices chorus line at 00:25, female at 00:27.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps I could butt in and explain that this is the tune "Lyngham" not "University", "Nativity" or "Lydia" which can also be used.

Actually, "Azmon" is the standard tune in the US, including among Methodists.

[ 04. August 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Baptist Trainfan
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I knew that, but I'd forgotten! It's not known in the UK AFAIK.
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TomM
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Male voices chorus line at 00:25, female at 00:27.

I had in mind (it's to a different tune in the hymn book I have to hand) that the split there was Soprano and Tenor and Alto and Bass rather than Soprano and Alto and Tenor and Bass. However, from memory and I'm not a musician so I may be wrong! And my recollection doesn't appear to match that recording!

[ 04. August 2016, 13:19: Message edited by: TomM ]

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Enoch
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No, I've never met Azmon in Britain either.

O for a thousand tongues is Common Metre (CM - 8686). Lyngham is a particularly striking example of a Common Metre tune with fuguing repeats. In the past, tunes were much less closely linked to specific words, and have been regarded as freely interchangeable if they fit metrically. It's also popular in some parts of the country, particularly Cornwall, for While shepherds watched.

Lydia is also CM with a repeat, but tends in England to be the tune for Jesus the name, high over all. There's more than one CM tune called University but the one I know best does not have repeats. Assuming it's the same tune, Nativity, which also does not have repeats, tends to be used in the CofE for Come let us join our cheerful songs.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Male voices chorus line at 00:25, female at 00:27.

quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
I had in mind (it's to a different tune in the hymn book I have to hand) that the split there was Soprano and Tenor and Alto and Bass rather than Soprano and Alto and Tenor and Bass. However, from memory and I'm not a musician so I may be wrong! And my recollection doesn't appear to match that recording!

The version I've got has Bass and tenors starting in unison, then soprano and altos answering in harmony, then tenor lines and bass lines calling again in harmony before finally ending in 4-part harmony.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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cornflower
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.[/QUOTE]The same confusion happens with a thousand tongues, where everyone seems to jump into the first male bar of the chorus, but usually manage to split up after that. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The trouble is with 'Oh for a thousand tongues' is that I always have this ghastly vision of me with a thousand tongues stuffed into my mouth...I should think that would make it extremely difficult to sing! There are another one or two hymns which conjour up similarly unfortunate pictures (particularly stemming from when one was a child and didn't quite understand the sometimes slightly weird, old-fashioned and poetic language used.) For example why would a green hill HAVE a city wall in any case, if it's a hill and not a city...?

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SvitlanaV2
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Wow, what a curious way of reading those lyrics!

I read those particular line as expressing a longing for 1000 people, each with a tongue, to sing the Saviour's praise, not that the narrator himself would like to possess 1000 tongues in his mouth!!

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cornflower
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Well, yes, I did realise that eventually....but unfortunately, once one has a certain image in one's head, it's very difficult to get rid of.
I used to wonder what 'inly' blind meant when I was a child, but when I got older, I got round to looking up 'inly' in the dictionary, as it had puzzled me for years [Frown]

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keibat
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I'd like to come back to the question of congregants saying they don't know a particular hymn ... I guess I do have a musically rich history as a worshiping Christian (as well as in other ways). For the past fifteen years I was mainly in a small but very international and ecumenical congregation in northern Europe, where we were constantly needing to find a viable compromise between multiple different theological, liturgical and musical traditions, including arguments between Brits, Americans and Others (even from the same denominations as each other) about what hymns - and tunes - they knew or didn't know; but we ended up with a satisfying rich musical worship. Now I'm a Reader in a multi-church C.of.E parish cluster in very-rural mainland England, and every time I take a service in one of our eleven churches I need to think very carefully what hymns to choose, and to be prepared to change the list if necessary after local consultation. Moreover each church (many of them formerly independent parishes) has a *different* musical history. There certainly are times when people will assert that they don't know a hymn when in fact they have sung it in the past – but different individuals do have different musical memories (i e actually remember music in different ways).

--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

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SvitlanaV2
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cornflower

Well, I'm a Methodist myself, and we like to sing lustily. You don't need to imagine one mouth with 1000 tongues if you have a decent Methodist congregation doing the business!

[ 04. August 2016, 21:40: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Gwalchmai
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
When our much loved Anglo Catholic Fr John gave his final Mass before retiring, he chose And Can It Be as one of his 'means a great deal to me' hymns, and it was sung very lustily.

But our (equally high) deacon asked me sniffily if that 'thing' was by Sankey and Moody. Shows something, I suppose.

Growing up CofE in the 1950s and 60s, And can it be was not part of the tradition. The prevailing attitude in the CofE to hymns that were cheerful, expressive or fun to sing was very much in line with the sniffy deacon - 'if I'd known we were going to have something like that, I'd have brought my tambourine' or 'the sort of thing they sing in chapels'. I didn't encounter it until a young adult.

A lot of this goes back to the editors of the first edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern of 1861. They saw it as part of their mission to eject the more florid and ebullient music that until then our forbears had sung in churches, often accompanied by bands rather than nice, seemly organs.

As the Methodists were beyond their reach, some of that music survived in chapels, though as time passed, there was a tendency towards musical politeness there too.

I'd say that And can it be is now very widespread, well known and popular, though people do get confused as to which repeat they are supposed to sing, which are the male and female lines.


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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
For example why would a green hill HAVE a city wall in any case, if it's a hill and not a city...?

I'm not sure if adult-you has worked this one out or not. But just in case not, the archaic 'without' makes more sense when inverted. The green hill is not lacking a city wall; it is outwith or outside the city wall. [Smile]

--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Gwalchmai
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

I'd say that And can it be is now very widespread, well known and popular, though people do get confused as to which repeat they are supposed to sing, which are the male and female lines.

Which is why churches should provide the congregation with with the music as well as the words. The music edition is essential, even if you are not very good singer, when you have a parish priest who goes off-piste with their choice of hymns!

(Apologies for posting the quote without a comment a few moments ago - a slip of the finger while typing on a tablet screen.)

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure if today your average American Presbyterian and average American Methodist would know the details of the differences those two theological systems, or care.

That was the situation here in Australia for many decades before the Presbyterians and Methodists finally hooked up in 1977 to form the so-called Uniting Church, and totter off into insignificance together.

Could you say something briefly about why you think these two united denominations are 'totter[ing] off into insignificance'? Do you think it's because they've lost interest in their theological distinctiveness?

With regard to this thread, would you say that hymns should reflect the theology of the congregations that sing them, or is the traditional hymn mostly about celebrating an inherited tradition rather than shared beliefs these days?

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cornflower
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
cornflower

Well, I'm a Methodist myself, and we like to sing lustily. You don't need to imagine one mouth with 1000 tongues if you have a decent Methodist congregation doing the business!

[Big Grin]
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cornflower
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quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
For example why would a green hill HAVE a city wall in any case, if it's a hill and not a city...?

I'm not sure if adult-you has worked this one out or not. But just in case not, the archaic 'without' makes more sense when inverted. The green hill is not lacking a city wall; it is outwith or outside the city wall. [Smile]
Oddly enough, I'd actually worked that one out whilst still young...it's a friend of mine who said he couldn't understand it when he was a kid
[Smile] But thanks, any way

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Which is why churches should provide the congregation with with the music as well as the words. The music edition is essential, even if you are not very good singer.

While I'd love to agree, the music edition is in fact not essential for the majority of people who can't read music.
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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
While I'd love to agree, the music edition is in fact not essential for the majority of people who can't read music.

But even then, a music edition can be helpful—even folks who can't read music can see the tune goes up or down, or there are lots of notes for a single syllable. FWIW, as far as I know lyrics-only hymnals, with the exception of large print hymnals, are extinct on this side of the pond. The last denomination I know of to publish a lyrics-only edition of its hymnal was the Episcopal Church with the 1940 Hymnal.

And while I'm at it, I'll put in a plug for churches offering occasional classes on reading music. When churches I've been part of have done so, the classes have been quite popular.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Could you say something briefly about why you think these two united denominations are 'totter[ing] off into insignificance'? Do you think it's because they've lost interest in their theological distinctiveness?

Obviously I can't speak from first-hand experience, but I can say that an older Australian cousin of mine, who had grown up in the Presbyterian Church, expressed a great deal of lukewarm feeling about the Uniting Church. I think there was a great deal of lowest-common denominator/"just not the same" feeling about it. She clearly thought something had been lost.

For context, this would have been in the first decade of the Uniting Church, and she was in her 60s, or perhaps early 70s at the time.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
The trouble is with 'Oh for a thousand tongues' is that I always have this ghastly vision of me with a thousand tongues stuffed into my mouth...I should think that would make it extremely difficult to sing! There are another one or two hymns which conjour up similarly unfortunate pictures

Crown Him With Many Crowns - I always get a picture of someone staggering around trying to keep their skyscraper-tall pile of headwear from toppling over, rather like the Lego towers I used to build with my grand-children.
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Basilica
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
The trouble is with 'Oh for a thousand tongues' is that I always have this ghastly vision of me with a thousand tongues stuffed into my mouth...I should think that would make it extremely difficult to sing! There are another one or two hymns which conjour up similarly unfortunate pictures

Crown Him With Many Crowns - I always get a picture of someone staggering around trying to keep their skyscraper-tall pile of headwear from toppling over, rather like the Lego towers I used to build with my grand-children.
To follow the image through, it really ought to be a lamb with the said pile of headwear...
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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Which is why churches should provide the congregation with with the music as well as the words. The music edition is essential, even if you are not very good singer.

While I'd love to agree, the music edition is in fact not essential for the majority of people who can't read music.
Surely they can be supplied with the Sol-fa edition? [Biased]

Do presbyterian ministers still tell folks what the tune is? As in, Let us worship God singing the twenty-third psalm, The Lord's my Shepherd, the tune is Stracathro, number one-hundred and thirty three.

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Cottontail

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quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
For example why would a green hill HAVE a city wall in any case, if it's a hill and not a city...?

I'm not sure if adult-you has worked this one out or not. But just in case not, the archaic 'without' makes more sense when inverted. The green hill is not lacking a city wall; it is outwith or outside the city wall. [Smile]
Oddly enough, I'd actually worked that one out whilst still young...it's a friend of mine who said he couldn't understand it when he was a kid
[Smile] But thanks, any way

Of course you did. I used to be a teacher. I just can't quite control my instinct to educate. Apologies. [Biased]

--------------------
"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."

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Baptist Trainfan
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[Do presbyterian ministers still tell folks what the tune is? As in, Let us worship God singing the twenty-third psalm, The Lord's my Shepherd, the tune is Stracathro, number one-hundred and thirty three. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I remember attending the CofS in the late 1970s and being amazed at what the congregations had to remember:"We will be upstanding and singing Psalm 119, verses 17 to 29 and 36-43 to the tune number 268". But they were used to it.

The best tune to Psalm 23 is "Orlington",anyway. (And the best tune to Psalm 24 is "Invocation") - that's the "O send your light forth" bit, of course.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


(And the best tune to Psalm 24 is "Invocation") - that's the "O send your light forth" bit, of course.

Do you mean ps 43 (xliii in my book!)? I agree to that!

The best tune for ps 24 (at the entry of the elements at the communion) is surely St George's Edinburgh, with men and women singing different lines.

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Mudfrog
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You may be very interested to hear the tune used in The Salvation Army for And Can It Be.

It's entitled Cardiff

FYI the word 'interest' in the second line of the song takes 7 notes of music as it rises and falls.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure if today your average American Presbyterian and average American Methodist would know the details of the differences those two theological systems, or care.

That was the situation here in Australia for many decades before the Presbyterians and Methodists finally hooked up in 1977 to form the so-called Uniting Church, and totter off into insignificance together.

Could you say something briefly about why you think these two united denominations are 'totter[ing] off into insignificance'? Do you think it's because they've lost interest in their theological distinctiveness?

With regard to this thread, would you say that hymns should reflect the theology of the congregations that sing them, or is the traditional hymn mostly about celebrating an inherited tradition rather than shared beliefs these days?

No, it's a tired old saw against church union. I can show you countless examples from Canada as well, though only in print, as the people who remember Church Union in 1925 have joined the Choir Invisible.

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Could you say something briefly about why you think these two united denominations are 'totter[ing] off into insignificance'?

The UC represents the old moribund mainstream Protestantism that is in trouble everywhere - it is too liberal for those who want something unambiguously religious, but its remaining theological and ecclesiastical accretions, such as they are, render it irrelevant to secularists.
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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

Obviously I can't speak from first-hand experience, but I can say that an older Australian cousin of mine, who had grown up in the Presbyterian Church, expressed a great deal of lukewarm feeling about the Uniting Church. I think there was a great deal of lowest-common denominator/"just not the same" feeling about it. She clearly thought something had been lost.

For context, this would have been in the first decade of the Uniting Church, and she was in her 60s, or perhaps early 70s at the time.


A couple of points. While all Methodist and Congregationalist Churches joined the new Uniting Church, there were may Presbyterians who continued on their own - and still do. Even then, a major problem for many was having a woman minister, something still banned in the continuing Presbyterian church.

The second is that it is only in the last half dozen or so years that an individual Uniting Church way of thinking has emerged, as opposed to the continuation of those of the constituent churches. Those forming this are those whose lives have always been in the Uniting Church. I can tell of at least 1 Sydney suburb where there were 2 Uniting Church congregations within a couple of hundred metres, one being the old Methodist, the other I'm not sure; a final merger happened a few years ago only because the money for this arrangement basically ran out. A few hundred metres in the opposite direction will see you with a continuing Presbyterian congregation.

The union has not been a success if by success you mean that the rate of decline has slowed down, let alone stopped. Success has been that there are still places where a traditional way of Protestant worship is available for those who seek out that type of church.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
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Let me point out something else. Congregationalist and Presbyterians merge and divide periodically. They always have done. They tend to merge and divide when they are under pressure. I suspect it might be fairer to say that when things are going fine they tend to keep their structures and when things are rough change them. If you do not believe me look up "Heads of Agreement" with "Congregational" and "Presbyterian" which looks to be London based but was mimicked rather more successfully elsewhere in the UK. Indeed some of the agreements only foundered in 1972.

In other words, the correlation causal relationship may well be the other way around. That the shrinkage process which started hitting in the 1960s caused the merger and the merger did not stop it (when has the tinkering with institutional forms stopped anything).

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The second is that it is only in the last half dozen or so years that an individual Uniting Church way of thinking has emerged, as opposed to the continuation of those of the constituent churches. Those forming this are those whose lives have always been in the Uniting Church.

That doesn't surprise me, and it's the reason I thought it worth mentioning that the cousin in question was at least in her 60s and that our conversation about it was only in the first decade or so of the UCA's existence. It takes time for a new identity to be established and accepted.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Signaller
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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
But even then, a music edition can be helpful—even folks who can't read music can see the tune goes up or down, or there are lots of notes for a single syllable. FWIW, as far as I know lyrics-only hymnals, with the exception of large print hymnals, are extinct on this side of the pond. The last denomination I know of to publish a lyrics-only edition of its hymnal was the Episcopal Church with the 1940 Hymnal.

We recently changed from "Hymns for Today's Church" (universally hated for its mangling of the text) to the latest edition of "Ancient and Modern". Providing books with the melody would have been twice as expensive as words-only (never mind the full music version!), and it would only have been of limited value, as there are many hymns for which the set tune is not the one we are used to singing. Having just the words available to the congregation gives organist and clergy a lot more flexibility. I understand that in the USA there is more consistency in linking tunes to words, which may explain why it makes sense to have the music in the book.
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cornflower
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Some time ago I read an article put out by a worship minister of a large mega church. Sorry I cannot find it, I tried.

This minister said while he originally started out with praise music he found it pretty hollow. He also sensed that people wanted something more in depth.

He started inserting more traditional music in the service and found people really appreciated it. In particular the younger people liked to learn the old standards of his denomination.

He now tries for a balance of new and traditional. He is pleased with the substance the older hymns provide. And he is looking for modern hymns that also have substance.

At the church I used to attend they always had a mix of traditional hymns and more modern stuff, which I think is good. I have to admit, services I've been to that seem only to have rather ancient hymns seem very stodgy. What I couldn't understand is how it seemed that a lot of people found some difficulty in learning new songs. Obviously, if you're elderly, maybe a little deaf etc, it must make it harder. I can certainly understand that there are many many old (or newer)favourites, and I for one wouldn't want to eschew them. However, I like to have a variety, although can also understand that there might be quite a bit of (probably modern) musical styles that people really don't like. And surely (to my mind), all it takes is to play the tune over to begin with if unfamiliar, and especially if there is a music group or choir to lead the singing, one can normally start to pick up a new tune after a couple of verses? I mean, how did people learn the ones they already know in the first place?
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Lamb Chopped
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"Praise songs" tend to be irregular in meter, and then you get the worship band on top of it improvising and swooping into various notes, repeating half a chorus, and just generally noodling around... it can be quite difficult the first several times. And I have near-perfect pitch memory. Hate to think what regular folk face.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
I understand that in the USA there is more consistency in linking tunes to words, which may explain why it makes sense to have the music in the book.

Yes, we do tend to have, in most instances, tunes fairly firmly associated with words—though there are cases where the tune we associate with a hymn will be different from the tune that, say, the Methodists do. For those relatively few hymns that have two tunes regularly associated with them, hymnals will frequently print the hymn twice. Sometimes there will be a notation at the bottom of the page indicating an alternate tune.

Perhaps that consistency is indeed why words-only hymnals seem to have pretty much disappeared over here. Or perhaps printing the music in hymnals, as the majority of our hymnals seem to have done for the last 100 or so years, is what led to the consistency. Anyway, it's interesting to learn there may not be the same consistency in the UK.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Surely they can be supplied with the Sol-fa edition? [Biased]

Why? What's the point of Sol-fa? Why encourage people to learn an alternative sort of musical notation, rather than the universal one, and particularly not if the alternative is, if anything, harder to follow than the more usual sort.
quote:

Do presbyterian ministers still tell folks what the tune is? As in, Let us worship God singing the twenty-third psalm, The Lord's my Shepherd, the tune is Stracathro, number one-hundred and thirty three.

That would be dependent on using a stable door psalter, which as far as I know, on this side of the Atlantic, is a specifically Scottish phenomenon.

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Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The second is that it is only in the last half dozen or so years that an individual Uniting Church way of thinking has emerged, as opposed to the continuation of those of the constituent churches. Those forming this are those whose lives have always been in the Uniting Church.

That doesn't surprise me, and it's the reason I thought it worth mentioning that the cousin in question was at least in her 60s and that our conversation about it was only in the first decade or so of the UCA's existence. It takes time for a new identity to be established and accepted.
Here in my city, there are 3 United Churches in the downtown core; two were Methodist in 1925, one was Presbyterian. Another stayed out of Union as a continuing Presbyterian church.

Two of those United Churches are only a hundred metres apart.

It is only now, on the 91st Anniversary of Church Union in Canada that two of these churches have merged and one building is being closed, and the continuing Presbyterian church is in the process of closing as the building has been condemned.

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american piskie
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Surely they can be supplied with the Sol-fa edition? [Biased]

Why? What's the point of Sol-fa? Why encourage people to learn an alternative sort of musical notation, rather than the universal one, and particularly not if the alternative is, if anything, harder to follow than the more usual sort.
Oh I agree completely, but the fact remains that these sol-fa versions of hymnals were widespread. My hazy recollection is that sol-fa was universally taught in Scottish primary schools, and the staff notation didn't get introduced until secondary (ie 12+); even then one had to learn one's termly Memory Tune in sol-fa, "Doh Te Lah Doh, Re Doh Te Soh".
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Oblatus
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I remember someone telling me that sol-fa notation is a low-budget way to set music in print: it consists of characters on a typewriter. So for congregations of people who have learned sol-fa, it's a way to give them printed music without sending it out for engraving.

That seems to be one advantage of it.

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L'organist
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The first hymn this morning is one we sing at least once a year, partly because it is about children worshipping and also because the tune is OK. And because there are no choir rehearsals during August members are circulated with hymn lists in advance and any that are "unknown" are gone through before the summer break.

So this morning I played an introduction and 3 full verses before I could hear any singing [Confused]

Oh, and a complaint about last week's service setting because "the words sung by the choir weren't those printed in the service booklet", which the PP dealt with by explaining that, strictly speaking, the words of the Kyrie aren't either since it appears in English but 50% of the time is sung by everyone in Greek: response to that was "that's different".

Is it just me?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The first hymn this morning is one we sing at least once a year

That doesn't sound often enough for a congregation to learn a hymn to me.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Oh, and a complaint about last week's service setting because "the words sung by the choir weren't those printed in the service booklet", which the PP dealt with by explaining that, strictly speaking, the words of the Kyrie aren't either since it appears in English but 50% of the time is sung by everyone in Greek: response to that was "that's different".

Sorry, don't get it. How can a congregation follow if the words aren't printed? The words of the Kyrie are pretty well known and not all that many. I don't see how that equates to a hymn at all.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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cornflower
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# 13349

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by cornflower:
The trouble is with 'Oh for a thousand tongues' is that I always have this ghastly vision of me with a thousand tongues stuffed into my mouth...I should think that would make it extremely difficult to sing! There are another one or two hymns which conjour up similarly unfortunate pictures

Crown Him With Many Crowns - I always get a picture of someone staggering around trying to keep their skyscraper-tall pile of headwear from toppling over, rather like the Lego towers I used to build with my grand-children.
Yes, it does conjour up a confusing picture...I know it's in scripture, but I've never been able to fathom out how someone - even Jesus could manage to balance so many crowns on His head [Frown] . Perhaps hatpins need to be used ?!!!
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