Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Too much wine
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
This may be a topic for ecclesiantics, since it asks a legitimate question about protocol. However, it is meant to be a fun thread and all answers are welcome.
Last week we had a visiting clergy person as our own reverend was on holiday. There was a major miscalculation of the amount of wine needed for the communion (mainly because many people there now intinct rather than drink). Therefore, there was about half a chalice left after the communion. As our visiting clergy was driving home, they declined to drink the excess. The two servers protested that they were also driving home, but since it was not far, they were persuaded to drink up. They admitted to feeling slightly tipsy afterwards, but I can confirm that they got home safely and without being arrested.
At another church I attend sometimes, there are two young boys who serve. Usually there is also an adult, but sometimes it is just the boys. Since they cannot drink up the remaining wine due to their age, what would happen if the clergy person could not drink the remaining wine because they had to drive home?
Could we, perhaps, offer seconds to the congregation? Suggestions, please.
Another thing I've been thinking about is this. The question of having left over wine is not addressed in the epistles, although the one about people not leaving enough is (Corinthians). If there was any wine left over, did they consume it in a leisurely fashion while discussing the spiritual question of the day, rather than downing it as fast as possible, as is today's practice?
-------------------- "...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.” “So as to do them?” asked her aunt. “So as to choose,” said Isabel. Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Can't answer for the Corinthians, but in a former parish when there was a significant amount of left-over Second Species, one of the clergy would come back to the rail and summon 3 or 4 of the adult choristers, saying 'drink as much as you can.'
-------------------- You can't retire from a calling.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is it not OK to pour the consecrated wine out onto the earth? I.e., not down the drain into the sewage system.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Moo
 Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
In many church sacristies there is a drain which goes directly to the ground. Leftover consecrated wine can be poured there.
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
When I was regularly an altar server, we were told that indeed you could pour in out into the earth. This isn't practical in Canadian winters. It would be into snow or onto frozen ground. A wine frozen puddle. So we would generally have to approach 4 or 5 people to come to the altar after and a prayer was available (there are prayers for every contingency), and the cup passed around.
Re intinction. This is banned in the diocese because a paper from the Diocese of Toronto summarised the data about disease and contamination about it, which convincingly said fingers and hands are much worse than a shared cup. Some parishes do fill a small extra cup for the intincters. I would not drink the remains of that I think.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
If you're having Communion in the context of a meal, as the Corinthians likely did, extra wine is no problem. Just linger over dinner a bit longer.
In church if we miscalculate we simply grab the nearest adult communicants before they head out the door and ask them to help us do the honors. Nobody wants to see their pastor driving with a buzz on!
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In the EOC a great deal of boiling water is added to the wine, so there's very little alcohol left by the time all is said and done.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Pigwidgeon
 Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: When I was regularly an altar server, we were told that indeed you could pour in out into the earth. This isn't practical in Canadian winters. It would be into snow or onto frozen ground. A wine frozen puddle.
A piscina solves that problem, especially if it leads into the ground, rather than just onto it.
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, we have a piscina. Broken or unuseable wafers get put out for the birds; I am the one who cuts down larger linens into smaller items, and when the purificators are too worn to be rehemmed any more they are burned. What has stumped us is what to do with the broken cruet. It is glass, but had been consecrated.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Brenda Clough: Yes, we have a piscina. Broken or unuseable wafers get put out for the birds; I am the one who cuts down larger linens into smaller items, and when the purificators are too worn to be rehemmed any more they are burned. What has stumped us is what to do with the broken cruet. It is glass, but had been consecrated.
It would have to be burial, wouldn't it?
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Nick Tamen
 Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mousethief: In the EOC a great deal of boiling water is added to the wine, so there's very little alcohol left by the time all is said and done.
Why boilng water instead of room temperature water? And is it then consumed? By the priest?
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm embarrassed to say I don't know why they use the hot water instead of just water. I've seen them use a thermos if it's out somewhere they can't boil, so the boiling part perhaps isn't as important as just being hot. (Although we're a very make-do-with-what-you-have lot.)
Probably if you asked someone, what you'd get would be an after-the-fact rationalization because nobody actually remembers anymore why they started doing it in the first place. We're that kind of lot too.
If there is wine left after the service, the deacon(s) consume it; in absence of deacon(s), the priest(s).
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Nick Tamen
 Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
Maybe hotter water mixes better?
Thanks.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
"Any consecrated bread and wine which is not required for purposes of communion is consumed at the end of the distribution or after the service."
From Common Worship. In the Church of England it is not permitted to throw excess communion elements away. I suppose if they were consumed after the service (not usual practice where I worship) more time could be taken over it.
-------------------- "...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.” “So as to do them?” asked her aunt. “So as to choose,” said Isabel. Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Never heard of hot water. Wine comes from a special stash in a large bottle that is specially brewed up communion wine. Alcohol is tightly controlled here and sold in gov't stores only. Water is taken from the tap. cold. Two little pitchers are used to pour wine and water and mingle them by the priest before consecration. There's a fancy name for the pitchers.
The piscina is probably illegal to have here. No drain pipe other than rain water can be built or used for any other water or liquid disposal.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jude:
Could we, perhaps, offer seconds to the congregation? Suggestions, please.
I serve as an usher from time to time, which means amongst other things that I receive communion last. So I'll take a decent swig from the chalice to help out.
That being said, our lot are usually quite good at only decanting enough, so there's not usually much left in the chalices.
Re intinction: I imagine the plague vector element is reduced if the priest intincts the host and places it on the communicant's tongue, rather than allowing all and sundry to dip their grubby mitts in the chalice.
Without evidence, I'd guess that this was "better" than the common cup from that point of view. No prophet: does the Diocese of Toronto have an opinion on this?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote: Originally posted by Jude: This may be a topic for ecclesiantics, since it asks a legitimate question about protocol.
Yes indeed. quote: However, it is meant to be a fun thread and all answers are welcome.
I think you should all have some fun in Ecclesiantics. Off you go.
/hosting
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
I did once hear of a Scottish bishop, whose explicit intention was to "consecrate what is on the altar, and nothing which is not on the altar", finding to his horror that some newbie had put a large flagon full of wine on the altar unbidden. I think that they reserved it and used it the next couple of Sundays, only consecrating a small chalice.
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jude: The question of having left over wine is not addressed in the epistles, although the one about people not leaving enough is (Corinthians). If there was any wine left over, did they consume it in a leisurely fashion while discussing the spiritual question of the day, rather than downing it as fast as possible, as is today's practice?
Clearly the Ephesians had a tendency to consume a great deal of wine in less then leisurely fashion - that's why Paul had to tell them off!
(That wouldn't have worked in most Baptist circles. (a) We use wee cuppies, so it's fiddly to drink a lot; (b) the wine is non-alcoholic and yucky; (c) on the bottle it clearly states "NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS A BEVERAGE"!)
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kingsfold
 Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote: originally posted by georgiaboy: Can't answer for the Corinthians, but in a former parish when there was a significant amount of left-over Second Species, one of the clergy would come back to the rail and summon 3 or 4 of the adult choristers, saying 'drink as much as you can.'
I've been know to ask the students in the congregation who are on foot.... (and/or adult choristers as above) [ 18. August 2016, 07:50: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
They might not be on foot by the time they've finished drinking ...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
It may depend on how many you have in the sanctuary at the service. At our main one, there are usually 9, of whom at least 6 will be adults. That helps a lot if there are many who intinct (strict rules about just dipping the edge into the wine) or if somehow or other there's too much consecrated.
Of course if there's way too much, there's always the aumbry.
-------------------- Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It brings to mind a recent visit to a very conservative anglo-catholic church where they believed in "real presence" and consequently were rather pernickety about what to do with the leftover wine after communion.
The result was that the vicar ended up downing about a bottle's worth of wine with all the dignity of a university rugby team on a night out on the tiles. He was very tipsy thereafter, stumbling into parishioners and slurring his words.
It went someway to persuading me that the symbolic understanding of communion is not only more theologically correct, but is also more dignified at a practical level.
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
As a 'non-conformist' friend of the Anglican church I am sitting on my hands trying hard not to respond.
But FGS, what's the worst that can happen if you throw the stuff away? And what's the worst that can happen if someone drives home under the influence? I wonder what Jesus would prefer?
I understand that some believe that 'in a mysterious way...this becomes to us the body and blood of Christ', but to regard it as undisposable seems to me to be mixing the Old Covenant (of Law and condemnation) with the New Covenant (of grace and freedom). Shock horror - didn't Jesus even endorse the instance where David and his merry men ate the showbread, without the permission of the priest, just because they were hungry?
I'll shut up again.
-------------------- I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty - I ordered a cheeseburger.
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Nick Tamen
 Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: They might not be on foot by the time they've finished drinking ...
My father used to joke that there's a reason it's called High Mass. [ 18. August 2016, 12:31: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
@Felafool:
We're Baptists. Communion is little more than a "visual aid" - although I do believe that God's grace is given to us as we eat and drink.
If there is wine left in the any of the wee cuppies, it goes back into the bottle for next time (the non-alcoholic stuff is full of preservatives anyway).
If we did use real wine that won't keep (and I wish we did!) we would either pour it down the sink or give it to someone to take home and drink with their Sunday lunch.
The leftover cubes of bread (or torn loaves that can't be used in any other way) usually get fed to the birds or thrown into the bin.
quote: And what's the worst that can happen if someone drives home under the influence?
Points on your licence, a stain on your reputation, accident and injury, the death of an innocent third party ... [ 18. August 2016, 13:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Felafool:
But FGS, what's the worst that can happen if you throw the stuff away? And what's the worst that can happen if someone drives home under the influence? I wonder what Jesus would prefer?
The Anglo-Catholic/Roman Catholic/Orthodox(?) position is the contents of the chalice is truly the Blood of Christ. What does it say if one is literally pouring Christ down the drain?
Now that doesn't mean there should be vast amounts leftover - better planning would normally fix that. And there is no reason why as many as necessary shouldn't assist in consuming. Too often the reason not to comes down to clericalism - 'it's the priest/specially appointed extra special minister's job'.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
ah heck. Worse comes to worst, I'd be putting the extra wine in the parish refrigerator and making plans to drink a sensible amount at regular points during the next few days.
If that was absolutely impossible, I'd consider civil disobedience and tote the wine home in an opened container to drink there, on the grounds that it is more charitable to run the risk of a ticket for said offense than to drive impaired.
Failing all else, call a freaking taxi.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
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Posted
I think were I the visiting clergyperson in that situation (since I have Strong Opinions about the consumption of the leftover elements; far Stronger Opinions than many others in my denomination), I'd be the one drinking the leftover wine, and I'd simply hang about the church building for an hour or so, reading or praying (or, if I'm honest, playing Plants vs. Zombies) or whatnot for an hour or so until I could safely and legally drive home. [ 18. August 2016, 15:41: Message edited by: Kayarecee ]
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
On the hot water/Orthodox practice: I too have seen the holy thermos of steaming water. My understanding is that the usual practice is to mix the bread, cut into cubes, into the cup. The hot water dilutes but also helps soften the bread, and helps “represent” the true warm body and blood.
Distribution is by spoon: a little bread with a little wine. At one monastery I was invited to receive (my understanding is this is contrary to usual practice forbidding non-Orthodox to do so). The priest did a sort of overhand catapult action: he snagged some bread and some wine, thumb supporting the spoon’s handle. Then a quick snap of the spoon against the bent index finger and bread/wine gained entry to the communicant’s open mouth without the spoon actually entering. Thank God two servers were holding a rather large dark red housling cloth in front of each communicant!
-------------------- Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kayarecee: ... playing Plants vs. Zombies) or whatnot for an hour or so until I could safely and legally drive home.
Come now, isn't there an "appropriate" game for clergy to play. What game would Jesus play in such circumstances?
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: quote: Originally posted by Kayarecee: ... playing Plants vs. Zombies) or whatnot for an hour or so until I could safely and legally drive home.
Come now, isn't there an "appropriate" game for clergy to play. What game would Jesus play in such circumstances?
"I will make you fishers of men, but before I let you loose on the human population, get some practice with Pokemon."
-------------------- I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it. Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
While waiting until he could safely and legally drive after finishing off a chalice of his own holy blood?
The recursion here is making my head spin.
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lamb Chopped: ... If that was absolutely impossible, I'd consider civil disobedience and tote the wine home in an opened container to drink there, on the grounds that it is more charitable to run the risk of a ticket for said offense than to drive impaired. ...
LC I think you may have to explain that. Query is it something to do with the law where you live? And anyway, wouldn't it safer to put a stopper in anything one is transporting a liquid in?
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sipech: It brings to mind a recent visit to a very conservative anglo-catholic church where they believed in "real presence" and consequently were rather pernickety about what to do with the leftover wine after communion.
As a far from conservative Catholic Anglican that comment set my blood pressure soaring. The doctrine of the 'real presence' is classic Anglican teaching (the 1662 Prayer Book, formerly beloved of 'low church' evangelicals, talks of God feeding us 'with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son'). Obviously it is not flesh and blood in a crudely literal sense, any more than Jesus's post-resurrection body was identical to his earthly body. But just as real.
That should mean that the sacramental elements should be treated with especial care. Pernicketiness and obsessive scrupulosity are one thing: treating the consecrated wine with disrespect is another.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: LC I think you may have to explain that. Query is it something to do with the law where you live? And anyway, wouldn't it safer to put a stopper in anything one is transporting a liquid in?
Many (most? all?) US states have "open container" laws meaning that it is illegal to drive with an unsealed container of any alcoholic drink accessible from the passenger cabin.
In the trunk of a sedan is OK - in the trunk of a hatchback might get you arrested. I have friends who were done for "open containers" because they had been clearing up after a party, and were driving several bin bags full of empty beer cans to the recycling depot. The cop (who wanted an excuse) stopped them, found dregs of beer in the bottom of some of the cans, and said "ahah!"
ETA: For clarity, "unsealed" means broken factory seal, not "cap off". [ 18. August 2016, 17:21: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
 Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Enoch: Wouldn't it safer to put a stopper in anything one is transporting a liquid in?
The law in Arizona and in most other states can be found here. Note: quote: "Open container" means any bottle, can, jar, container . . . or other receptacle that contains spirituous liquor and that has been opened, has had its seal broken or the contents of which have been partially removed.
-------------------- "I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Aha, another example of Kinder Egg territory. I've said before on these boards that every jurisdiction has them.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by BabyWombat: On the hot water/Orthodox practice: I too have seen the holy thermos of steaming water. My understanding is that the usual practice is to mix the bread, cut into cubes, into the cup. The hot water dilutes but also helps soften the bread, and helps “represent” the true warm body and blood.
Distribution is by spoon: a little bread with a little wine. At one monastery I was invited to receive (my understanding is this is contrary to usual practice forbidding non-Orthodox to do so). The priest did a sort of overhand catapult action: he snagged some bread and some wine, thumb supporting the spoon’s handle. Then a quick snap of the spoon against the bent index finger and bread/wine gained entry to the communicant’s open mouth without the spoon actually entering. Thank God two servers were holding a rather large dark red housling cloth in front of each communicant!
The flippy thing is not universal. I think it's ridiculous. And it is definitely the fact that non-O's are not supposed to receive. That priest could get a stern talking-to from his bishop were this made known, up to and perhaps including defrockment, temporary or permanent, depending on how hard-assed the bishop was. (Bishops have a lot of autonomy. Some might say too much but now we're far afield from the Eucharist!)
I can't imagine softening the bread would be much of an issue, as (a) it's pretty soft bread to begin with, and (b) wine softens bread about as well as hot water, give or take. The key principle of bread softening being wetness more than heat.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: Maybe hotter water mixes better?
Thanks.
Maybe it is just an extra measure against possible microscopic fauna.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'm sure the northerly Orthodox brethren appreciate a little heat and it probably makes it a lot easier to create the 'mush' in the chalice.
Whoops, sorry just notice this had been suggested upthread. The Romanian breads with the stamps on them are like bricks and I think it is the same format that is used for the Eucharist itself but this gets cut into funny little triangles and arranged on the paten but it is still pretty firm. [ 18. August 2016, 18:53: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kelly Alves: quote: Originally posted by Nick Tamen: Maybe hotter water mixes better?
Thanks.
Maybe it is just an extra measure against possible microscopic fauna.
That's one theory I've heard mooted. Although the discovery of the existence of microscopic fauna is considerably more recent than the practice of pouring hot water into the chalice. So I think that theory is an example of after-the-fact postsplaining rather than a bona fide historical account.
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: The Romanian breads with the stamps on them are like bricks and I think it is the same format that is used for the Eucharist itself but this gets cut into funny little triangles and arranged on the paten but it is still pretty firm.
Those guys need to loosen up and use more water in the baking. And yeah it does get cut up kinda funny.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe: quote: Originally posted by Enoch: Wouldn't it safer to put a stopper in anything one is transporting a liquid in?
The law in Arizona and in most other states can be found here. Note: quote: "Open container" means any bottle, can, jar, container . . . or other receptacle that contains spirituous liquor and that has been opened, has had its seal broken or the contents of which have been partially removed.
That's fairly similar to here. I transport part bottles of wine all the time in the summer to and from our cabin, usually in a box with other foodstuffs. Because it is not in the open and it's obvious there's no intent to drink it, and the coppers wouldn't possibly even see it if I was stopped, the offence is not made out. So put your wine into a bag or bottle and tell the police you're on your way home from church. (I have been stopped once this year in this situation. The RCMP officer asked if I'd had anything to drink, what I had in the vehicle, where I was from-to, and off we went.)
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: Re intinction: I imagine the plague vector element is reduced if the priest intincts the host and places it on the communicant's tongue, rather than allowing all and sundry to dip their grubby mitts in the chalice.
Without evidence, I'd guess that this was "better" than the common cup from that point of view. No prophet: does the Diocese of Toronto have an opinion on this?
I've always laboured under the (mis?)apprehension that the whole point of using a silver chalice and a fortified wine is that there is a reaction between the silver and the wine that has some antiseptic/antibacterial effect, minimising risk of casual infection from the usual minor ailments.
Which is why I hate it when you go to some Evangelical shindig where they're all po-faced about alcohol so use squash or grape juice, but then decide to have a common cup because of the community aspect. Wee cuppies only chaps, if there's no booze, and silver only if there is!
-------------------- Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Ascension-ite
Shipmate
# 1985
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Posted
As an Anglo-Catholic some of the posts here are giving me the vapors. I was an altar server for a few years and have eaten and drunk my fair share of left-over consecrated elements. The rector would line all the servers up at the alter rail if we had a lot left over and we'd finish what we had to. The host can obviously be added to the reserved sacrament. Pouring wine into unconsecrated ground or throwing out for the birds is anathema to me. Obviously other denominations have different views on the elements, but for Anglicans we should be treating the elements with utmost respect, at least I hope so.
Posts: 318 | From: Old Dominion | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pigwidgeon: quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: When I was regularly an altar server, we were told that indeed you could pour in out into the earth. This isn't practical in Canadian winters. It would be into snow or onto frozen ground. A wine frozen puddle.
A piscina solves that problem, especially if it leads into the ground, rather than just onto it.
I assure you: having piscinae does not solve that problem. The consecrated elements freeze in the pipe and back up.
In Canadian churches I know with piscinae (and I assure no prophet's flag is set so that these were legal installations) they have only been used in warmer weather, when the ground beneath is capable of absorbing the elements.
I should add that climate varies around Canada, and not all suffer the frozen pipe scenario. [ 19. August 2016, 12:48: Message edited by: Leaf ]
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Nick Tamen
 Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ascension-ite: Pouring wine into unconsecrated ground or throwing out for the birds is anathema to me. Obviously other denominations have different views on the elements, but for Anglicans we should be treating the elements with utmost respect, at least I hope so.
Noting as you do that other denominations (and, I would add, some other Anglicans) have different views on the elements, I think it's important to remember that they may also have different views on what is respectful. Those who, for example, feed leftover bread to the birds do so because they find it appropriate and respectful—perhaps more appropriate and respectful in their estimation than consuming all leftovers after the service.
-------------------- The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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