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Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour.

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Gluten-free wafers are forbidden at the Traditional Latin Mass. Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by Vidi Aquam:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other wafer angle that we have been coping with is the demand for gluten-free wafers. These are also expensive, and fragile -- made of rice flour.

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Gluten-free wafers are forbidden at the Traditional Latin Mass. Those with Celiac disease would have to receive a small fragment of the Host, or make a spiritual Communion.

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How would a priest thus affected cope? The former RC Archbishop of Liverpool (the late Derek Worlock) used special gluten free (or maybe simply low gluten) wafers.

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I'd never heard of it, and I'm C of E. Most of the comments about pouring the consecrated wine down the piscina seem to come from across the pond. I don't know what explains the difference in practice.

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I once came across it in an MOTR parish (about 25 years ago), albeit I think the wine was poured directly into the consecrated ground. (I wasn't paying attention beyond the fact that my next port of call was lunch, which would include wine, and I didn't expect to have to neck a chalice of fortified wine in preparation when it was thrust under my nose by a desperate sacristan and was sufficiently relieved when the Vicar came to my rescue not to worry too much about the practicalities!)

Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Originally posted by Callan:

Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

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Originally posted by Callan:

Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.

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I would object to the former, but not the latter. My reasoning is that the chewed-and-regurgitated host is unfit for consumption, so dissolving and pouring down the piscina is the best you can do. Your half-empty chalice is fit for consumption, and so should be consumed.

This is more based on a sense of what feels right than on any rigorous theology, though.

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Originally posted by Callan:
If I did have to commit the wine to the earth, in theory, (I have never done so whilst it has been my call) I would pour it directly into the consecrated earth (ignoring the piscina) as a libation.

Would this be bad and wrong? If so, why?

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Callan:

Presumably, those who object to the pouring of the MPB into the consecrated earth also object to putting a half chewed wafer into a glass of water to disintegrate and then pouring the resulting concoction into the earth? Asking for a friend.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We have done this for as long as the church has been a building (the piscina sink is plumbed into tbe sacristy). This must make a practice at least eighty years old. Our older building, the chapel, doesn't have a piscina, so that gives you kind of a time line.

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Originally posted by Gee D:
They may be familiar, but here is a church having under-age people consume alcohol.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(Nonconformists often use non-alcoholic wine anyway. It's revolting).

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe that for religious purposes you are out from under the underage-drinking laws. Similar to Native Americans using peyote in rituals. It's illegal for you and me tonight after dinner, but not them in their rites.

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Originally posted by Gee D:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe that for religious purposes you are out from under the underage-drinking laws. Similar to Native Americans using peyote in rituals. It's illegal for you and me tonight after dinner, but not them in their rites.

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That most certainly is not the law here, even if it be so in some of the united states.

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We have done this for as long as the church has been a building (the piscina sink is plumbed into tbe sacristy). This must make a practice at least eighty years old. Our older building, the chapel, doesn't have a piscina, so that gives you kind of a time line.

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I think the piscina sink is used for rinsing the sacred vessels of the few drops that might bee left, not disposing of drinkable quantities. It is also a place to dispose of baptismal water. When I was a LEM we (priest, deacon, lay ministers) used to pass around the chalice if there was an inordinate amount of wine remaining. Then the altar guild folks washed it and poured the wash water down the piscina.

And according to Wiki, the piscina became a popular fixture in English churches during the thirteenth century.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(Nonconformists often use non-alcoholic wine anyway. It's revolting).

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(Nonconformists often use non-alcoholic wine anyway. It's revolting).

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I don't think it's revolting. I'm not a connoisseur of fine wine, though.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(Nonconformists often use non-alcoholic wine anyway. It's revolting).

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I don't think it's revolting. I'm not a connoisseur of fine wine, though.

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Perhaps you use a different brand to us. Ours is marked, "Not intended for use as a beverage"!

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What is the intended use? And why do you use it if it tastes so bad?

I'm in one of those denominations where the norm is grape juice, though wine is certainly permitted, and is found from time to time. I hope that one day wine will be the norm again. Wine speaks to celebration and transformation in a way that grape juice simply can't.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that when teenagers who happen to be below the age at which they can buy drinks, consume minuscule amounts of communion wine probably diluted with water, this is a form of child abuse or that not letting them do so is making an important statement of principle, has lost their sense of proportion.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:


I'm in one of those denominations where the norm is grape juice, though wine is certainly permitted, and is found from time to time. I hope that one day wine will be the norm again. Wine speaks to celebration and transformation in a way that grape juice simply can't.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

For example, in communities where there are recovering alcoholics and people with particular diseases, and where evangelism and interfaith work involve engagement with Muslims, a non-alcoholic Communion service is more inclusive.

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You have interfaith services where you communicate Muslims with grape juice?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some people can 'celebrate' without alcohol . . .

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and fermentation isn't what make Communion a transformatory act.

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I'm not saying that alcohol is bad, but in complicated modern societies it's useful to have spaces where alcohol and fun aren't deemed to be inevitable companions.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Some people can 'celebrate' without alcohol, though, and fermentation isn't what make Communion a transformatory act.

I'm not saying that alcohol is bad, but in complicated modern societies it's useful to have spaces where alcohol and fun aren't deemed to be inevitable companions.

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Originally posted by Gee D:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that when teenagers who happen to be below the age at which they can buy drinks, consume minuscule amounts of communion wine probably diluted with water, this is a form of child abuse or that not letting them do so is making an important statement of principle, has lost their sense of proportion.

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I'd be surprised if anyone thought that. What we are doing is showing that as we're conscious of our obligations in these tiny details, we're also conscious of them in the substantial matters, such as sexual abuse.

BTW, it's not just buying drinks, it's having drinks bought for them as well.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I know of one city centre parish church that offers both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wine at Communion, as well as gluten-free wafers. I think this is a good solution for them, since it takes into account both their tradition and also the realities of their modern, urban setting.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I wasn't aware that the Eucharist was supposed to be "fun."

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
You have interfaith services where you communicate Muslims with grape juice?

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Simply being in a place where there is wine will tempt some who are recovering. Surely church is about holiness - ie not putting temptation in people's way?

There is a choice after all and, as BT says, I don't think God is bothered if we use unfermented wine so long as we are transformed by participating and feasting on all God has to offer..

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the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome

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Originally posted by BroJames:
It is a legal requirement for the Church of England that the wine for communion should be

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the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome

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In the Anglican Communion (and probably in others too) communion is regarded as complete even where a person is able to receive only one element - the bread or the wine - so those for whom alcohol is a problem can simply refrain from the wine. There are some others who do that anyway for a variety of reasons, so it wouldn't be a 'pointer' to a person's alcoholism.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I wasn't aware that the Eucharist was supposed to be "fun."

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Nick Tamen used the word 'celebration', and I used the word 'fun'. To me the words are closely related, but apparently not in a religious sense; after all, the Eucharist is usually a very sober affair. It's a celebration in a theological rather than an everyday sense.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, let's say that if I were using the word 'celebration' with my friends they'd expect me to be referring to something livelier than what normally happens in Communion!

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Which might suggest something is amiss about the way Communion is celebrated.

But again, "livelier" (full of life) is not the same thing as fun (something that provides mirth or amusement; enjoyment or playfulness). I'd wager that mirth, amusement or playfulness might form a part of what most people think about when they talk about celebrating, say, a holiday or a birthday, but I'd also wager 'fun' is not the main thing people think of, unless they're children or it's a purely fun holiday, like Halloween. To perhaps relate it to the Eucharist, in the US when people talk about about celebrating Thanksgiving, they mean a big dinner with traditional foods and giving some thought to what they are thankful for.

Well, and football.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posted                       

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Originally posted by BroJames:
It is a legal requirement for the Church of England that the wine for communion should be

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the fermented juice of the grape, good and wholesome

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In the Anglican Communion (and probably in others too) communion is regarded as complete even where a person is able to receive only one element - the bread or the wine - so those for whom alcohol is a problem can simply refrain from the wine. There are some others who do that anyway for a variety of reasons, so it wouldn't be a 'pointer' to a person's alcoholism.

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, let's say that if I were using the word 'celebration' with my friends they'd expect me to be referring to something livelier than what normally happens in Communion!

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Which might suggest something is amiss about the way Communion is celebrated.

But again, "livelier" (full of life) is not the same thing as fun (something that provides mirth or amusement; enjoyment or playfulness). I'd wager that mirth, amusement or playfulness might form a part of what most people think about when they talk about celebrating, say, a holiday or a birthday, but I'd also wager 'fun' is not the main thing people think of, unless they're children or it's a purely fun holiday, like Halloween. To perhaps relate it to the Eucharist, in the US when people talk about about celebrating Thanksgiving, they mean a big dinner with traditional foods and giving some thought to what they are thankful for.

Well, and football.

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