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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pews v chairs
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
The seating I liked the best was a church which had both several rows of pews in the front followed by several rows of chairs in the back. When having small mid-week services, and other special events the chairs could be moved to fit the needs, and for those who wanted a more traditional look the rows of pews were still there. The best of both worlds.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Baker
Shipmate
# 18458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What, we aren't supposed to sit in rows on a grassy hillside?
Why did he say "Blessed are the cheesemakers?"
Because we have a friend in Cheeses?
Cheddar Cheese Jerusalem, lyrics by Dr. Busker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GowZKAKooMU
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Ad astra per aspera
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
On the rare occasions when I sit in a congregation I much prefer a pew for the simple reason that none of the church chairs I've ever sat in have been comfortable.
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet) -- and upset the organist and choir!
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Chiming in late to mention that we have had chairs since our construction on theological principle: this profile from Laval University gives the background (although the text is in French, the linked audio interview is in English). I have to say while my head and heart appreciate the theology, my back not so much.
[ 29. August 2016, 00:33: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet)
Of course, that would be a Good Thing in some buildings which have excessive resonance.
Our church (1850s Nonconformist chapel) benefitted greatly when we removed some pews at the back of the church and put in some hard flooring - we have carpet elsewhere. As it stands, it is a good building to speak in but a little "dead" for most music - although a Brass Band sounds great!
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
Not all of us take much padding everywhere we go and taking a cushion on public transport would look decidedly odd as well as be inconvenient. Padded runners on the pews are an excellent compromise - ours are covered in a reddish brown wool, which matches the timber of the pews quite well. Perhaps it affects the acoustic but I doubt that much thought went into the acoustics of most churches when they were being designed.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
Chiming in late to mention that we have had chairs since our construction on theological principle: this profile from Laval University gives the background (although the text is in French, the linked audio interview is in English). I have to say while my head and heart appreciate the theology, my back not so much.
I've always associated pews with stiff-upper-lip-Mattins, and chairs (especially with rush seating) with English Catholicism à la Percy Dearmer. Many of the first Tractarian churches made a point in making all seats free (i.e. no pew rents) – although of course you could still theoretically have pews if you wanted. Chairs are more flexible but when the liturgy involves a lot of kneeling it is not always so easy as you tend to lean against the chair in front and either push it forward if it's unoccupied or breathe down the neck of its occupant.
One of the first churches in Liverpool to be built with 'all seats free' actually has benches (more like park benches than traditional pews): I'm not sure if they date from its opening but they look as if they do. What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If people find pews too hard then it is possible to make (or buy) padded runners, and it isn't unknown for people to bring their own cushion.
With the average service taking only an hour or so, and that time being interspersed with opportunities to stand, I fail to see why padded seating is considered necessary; quite apart from anything else, the padding is likely to raise the fire risk of a church.
Not all of us take much padding everywhere we go and taking a cushion on public transport would look decidedly odd as well as be inconvenient. Padded runners on the pews are an excellent compromise - ours are covered in a reddish brown wool, which matches the timber of the pews quite well. Perhaps it affects the acoustic but I doubt that much thought went into the acoustics of most churches when they were being designed.
Perhaps in Victorian times people (especially ladies) actually
wore their own padding.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Not to mention those who don't wear the padding as an item of clothing.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Padding and upholstery can also deaden the acoustics (though not as badly as carpet) -- and upset the organist and choir!
I'd venture to suggest that a seat cushion has less effect on the acoustics than the person sitting on the seat cushion.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
You've got to have somewhere to carve the coat of arms of the owner.
(I've been in at least one church which has installed little velvet ropes to block the ends of its pews, and the ushers unhook the ropes to allow the occupants of each pew up for communion.)
[ 29. August 2016, 15:08: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
Warmth, wasn't it?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
To let you know whose pew it is. When pews were first installed they were paid for by the parishioners, who then got to sit in the pew they purchased, since it was quite literally theirs.
Later when churches (parishes) opened the purse strings and started buying their own (parish-owned) pews, the pew door became rare.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
To let you know whose pew it is. When pews were first installed they were paid for by the parishioners, who then got to sit in the pew they purchased, since it was quite literally theirs.
Doors weren't needed for that, though. I know of a number of churches where pew rent used to be the practice. No doors, just a small badge with a number on the end of the pew.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A door would only help with warmth if the pew had a roof -- think of it as a shoebox set on its side so that the opening is towards the altar. A couple heated bricks at your feet would also be nice. I have never seen such a thing and wonder if the concept is but the fruit of overheated imagination.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I think there is a difference between churches where pews could be rented and churches where pews could be owned. Box pews seem to have been where pews could be owned while the numbers or little slip in holders (about business card size) are where pews could be rented.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I think pew doors first became a feature in the days of box pews, in the 1700s, when the walls on the pews could in some cases reach 5-6 feet. Some of these pews had seating around the outside walls -- they could be twice to three times the width of a modern pew, and it was not unknown, though I suspect rare, for the pew to include a small fireplace or brazier. Keeping heat in may have been a function, though remember that the habit of taking off outer clothing (winter coats and so on) would have been unknown -- most churches at the time were unheated, so what kept you warm going to church was what kept you warm in church. A door on a box pew might assist in keeping the heat in if there was a heat source in your pew, but not very much I would have thought.
The door was to ensure that no unauthorized person entered the pew which was the "property" of a person or family. And that remained its function when the walls on the box pews shrank, and the seating in them was re-oriented to face the front.
John
[ 29. August 2016, 18:44: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Those look like -very- narrow benches, scarcely able to support one's hinder end. Did the worshippers perhaps bring their own chairs?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Or chamber pots?
I can't help thinking that a box pew with door would be very convenient if one had to keep several toddlers under control.
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Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
And for hiding all sorts of unseemly behaviours by toddler's elders.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Or, over in the other thread, to keep your dogs (which you insisted on bringing to the service) confined.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Chairs are more flexible but when the liturgy involves a lot of kneeling it is not always so easy as you tend to lean against the chair in front and either push it forward if it's unoccupied or breathe down the neck of its occupant.
It's worse because most of our chairs are connected in groups of three in a kind of chair kebab. "My" spot is one of the few in the place where there is a loose chair behind another loose chair. Otherwise I invariably end up pushing the whole row in front of me into a weird angle.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Or chamber pots?
There was a period when I was a kid when I would visit the ceramics museum in Toronto almost every weekend. One of the items in their Meissen porcelain collection was a chamber pot called a "Bourdaloue". The explanation was that a certain Abbé Bourdaloue (a court preacher at Versailles, if memory serves) was known for the sheer length of his sermons, which tested the endurance of the gentlewomen.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A door would only help with warmth if the pew had a roof -- think of it as a shoebox set on its side so that the opening is towards the altar. A couple heated bricks at your feet would also be nice. I have never seen such a thing and wonder if the concept is but the fruit of overheated imagination.
In New France and after the Conquest, RC worshippers brought their heated bricks in small padded cushions which they kept at their feet. For a while ceramic holders for hot bricks were popular, but few have survived. IIRC one can be seen in the McCord Museum in Montréal. Clergy had pewter footrests (which didn't survive very much either) or pewter bottles for hot water, which they kept in their hands.
Keeping warm would justify the presence of lap dogs in a church, a topic commented upon in a nearby thread.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
What I find off putting is serried ranks of rigid pews, especially if they have doors.
What was the function of pew doors?
Warmth, wasn't it?
I think I've seen a box pew that had its own little brazier heater in it even.
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