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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Security guidelines for places of worship
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In the wake of the terrorist murder of a priest at mass in France, the BBC reports on the release of new Counter-Terrorism advice for Churches Guidelines in the UK.
Advice ranges from fitting out your building with CCTV to carrying lone worker alarms. How does your church respond to security threats? Is this just TSA-style security theatre, and largely ineffective?
How do you strike the right balance between seeking to be open to the community and sensible precautions?
(And before you think this just concerns everyone else, remember we lost our very own Geneviève to a gunman in church four years ago).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
So, the fire prevention people are telling us that we should have a number of open doors in case we have to evacuate and the counter-terrorism people are telling us that we should have one door that we can slam shut in an emergency. It's Protect and Survive all over again.
Oh, and the challenging suspicious people stuff is just what we need. Not. I recently had an aggrieved e-mail from a member of the public complaining that some of my ladies were giving her the evil eye when she was visiting her mum's grave. "Oh, we have to be careful" she was told "because of thieves and vandalism". God help us all, when they get the memo about Islamic State.
Oh, and then there is the hare about not wearing clerical dress, which appears to have no basis in actual fact but which certain people have set running. Candidly, I am pissed as hell about this. I came home this evening to discover that my daughter was distraught to hear that clergy were being advised not to go out in clerical dress, lest they get stabbed by aggrieved Muslims. Despite the fact that no such advice appears to have been issued.
A siege mentality is all very well during an actual siege, but if you actually want people to come into your church it's probably a bad idea. I am going to work on the basis that the church is the house of God and that anyone who enters is His guest. If that means my head ends up as someone's paperweight, so be it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Broken link. fiddling with it, I got the document, which is a 12 page PDF. Link is actually: http://tinyurl.com/zuhwgk6
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Page 2 has a subtitle: "An escalating problem", and then it goes on to contradict. My take on the issue is different.
I believe there is an inflated perception of risk, that is beyond the actual risks. But that is about the statistical risk, not about the individual risks in particular situations. Better is to have procedures and processes to appraise specific risks from specific people. This doesn't work if the person is going to burst into a church and spray bullets, lob in a bomb or self anniliate and blow up others too. But then nothing prevents such things except prior police intelligence.
In one of the offices I consult in, because of a hostage taking in another province 6 years ago, they put up a security glass, cameras, employ a guard and have computer controlled doors etc. No incident has ever occurred since that one off somewhere else, but the security has become expected and the way things are. I think the CCTV cameras (whether working or dummy) may prevent theft. But will not a determined suicidal-homicidal maniac.
The only part of the document I can support is "security awareness" which is the soft, human management part, and doesn't depend on hardware. Let's be wise, but not paranoid. Nor spend any significant money for hardware. No cameras, personal alarms etc.
[ 31. August 2016, 21:47: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Small town here, one church keeps the doors unlocked daylight hours even though it is completely unattended, the office is a block away. I have no idea if there are cameras.
In the office building a rotation of volunteer little old ladies sits in the lobby, often doing needlework, a buffer of sorts to prevent the clergy person from being startled by arrival of an unexpected stranger.
A church a block away recent.y changed from keeping the sanctuary locked to keeping the outside door to the office locked, used to be you could drop in, now you must ring the bell and explain who you are thru an electronic barrier before someone comes to open the door. It does discourage the usual beggars and make staff feel safer. The contract between the two neighboring churches points to the tensions between accessibility and safety.
Childhood church started locking the doors in the 50s when a homeless man set fire to the church inside the unattended sanctuary and caused massive damage.
The world has always been unsafe. How to be accessible in an unsafe world?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Our Sunday School kids did a number of drills a few months ago. These days, you need to do a fire drill, a "bad person outside of the church" drill, and a "bad person inside the church" drill.
I was a sensitive kid, and I was always on edge on fire drill day at school. I'm glad we have a really good and experienced teacher to explain these newer drills to our kids, because I would have lost sleep over it when I was younger. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Many city-based British churches have already faced break-ins and thefts (probably by non-religious folk) and so already have security procedures of some kind. I know of one mainstream city centre church that has doorman on duty, and you have to ring a bell and get past him if you want to attend worship on Sunday evenings!
As for the religious issue, IME mainstream congregations in multicultural areas try to maintain polite relationships with Muslim neighbours, but I do know of one church where this has been difficult. And several years ago a vicar's wife wrote a disturbing piece about the antagonism between some of the local Muslims and her church.
I don't know about any of this leading to Islamic terrorism, though. One of the OP's links says that that small churches in English villages are more likely to be at risk of terrorism than churches elsewhere, which makes even less sense.
IMO the main issue is whether some worshippers will continue to feel safe in areas where the demographics have completely changed. Congregations in certain places will eventually have to have discussions about this.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I went to an Episcopal church in my suburb some years ago, and the rector showed me around. They had been keeping the church unlocked, day and night. Until one night when a man who had been drinking came in with a shotgun, and pumped some bullets into the big cross hanging over the altar. After that they took to locking the doors at night. They left the bullets in, and you can still see them.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
several years ago a vicar's wife wrote a disturbing piece about the antagonism between some of the local Muslims and her church.
Not saying there are no problems, but I think you have to take that (anonymous) piece and its (unsourced, second-hand) anecdotes in the context of the editorial, um, standpoint of the magazine in which it was published.
quote:
I don't know about any of this leading to Islamic terrorism, though.
You never said a truer word. The perpetrators of Islamic terrorism are almost never to be found in Western mosques, so it might be a good idea to stop conflating the two ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) quote:
One of the OP's links says that that small churches in English villages are more likely to be at risk of terrorism than churches elsewhere, which makes even less sense.
Did you read the guidelines? Such churches represent an innumerable number of soft targets in locations where police are likely to take ages to arrive.
quote:
IMO the main issue is whether some worshippers will continue to feel safe in areas where the demographics have completely changed.
Again, I think it would be misleading and dangerous to suggest that a place of worship's vulnerability to terrorist attack (the context of the OP) is in direct proportion to the demographic of its neighbourhood, or indeed that its general vulnerability to attack is in proportion to the local ethnic demographic.
The problems of churches in deprived areas are a little different, even if some of the measures are designed to apply to all threats.
In general, I agree with no prophet that the soft approach is the best route to take, or at least to invest in first. Our current church premises open onto a main pedestrian thoroughfare which has all kinds of flora and fauna passing through of a Sunday morning. We have a couple of people who sit in such a location as to be able to spot anyone coming in and discreetly go and greet them, the idea being as the guidelines state to at least delay any disruption (if that turns out to be the intent of the visitor).
In general I find knowing who is responsible for dealing with disturbances actually reduces them to practically zero, although this obviously wouldn't stop a determined and premeditated attack.
[ 01. September 2016, 05:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Did you read the guidelines? Such churches represent an innumerable number of soft targets in locations where police are likely to take ages to arrive.
Remote village churches may be more susceptible to theft, but I don't see why Islamist terrorists would target such places when there are churches nearer to where they live. At any rate, I've never heard of such an issue in the UK before.
Any brown-skinned person who went to an English village to carry out such an attack would stand out from the surrounding population, so in the long run the police being far away wouldn't be much of an advantage.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The perpetrators of Islamic terrorism are almost never to be found in Western mosques, so it might be a good idea to stop conflating the two
I didn't mention mosques.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Not directly, but the combined implication of the OP, the article you linked to and your comments was that UK churches in predominantly muslim areas where quote:
Most of the run-down Irish pubs were turned into mosques
would more likely be subject to terrorist attacks, and that muslim communities are deserving of suspicion because they are likely to be harbouring terrorists.
The terrorists in Europe are generally not integrated into practising muslim communities.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Remote village churches may be more susceptible to theft, but I don't see why Islamist terrorists would target such places when there are churches nearer to where they live.
I note again the assumption that all Islamist terrorists are brown-skinned ghetto-dwellers too lazy to travel too far to perpetrate terror...
From the article linked to in the OP: quote:
National Churchwatch's director, Nick Tolson, said eight clergy had been murdered - all in knife attacks - since 1996.
He said the risk of an attack had risen since the murder in July of Father Hamel, who had his throat cut when two men stormed his church in a suburb of Rouen, northern France, during Mass.
"My experience tells me it won't be a large church or cathedral," he said.
"It'll be a small church where there's not much around and the police are a long way away."
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Acting on police advice, our Vicar attempted to institute a system whereby at least 4 people (not counting the minister) must sign up in advance to attend weekday services. Result: we no longer have public Morning or Evening Prayer. The church, however, remains open during daylight hours. Oh, and at least two people must be present when anyone is working in the church, e.g. flower arranging or sewing church linen. Quite what two elderly ladies would be expected to do in the face of a person armed with a machete or gun is unclear.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It depends on how clued up they are on game theory. A high profile target like Westminster Abbey or St Paul's Cathedral may be harder to access than Dunstable Methodist Church.
If you want a scary thought, if someone of malicious intent were to find the Mystery Worshipper reports, they could use them to find relatively a well-populated church in a rural or suburban area. Or go for simultaneous attacks: Target half a dozen or churches across the country and 11:15.
I'm not sure there's much that really could be done to ensure everyone is safe. What I am sure of is that CCTV won't deter someone brandishing an AK47.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
National Churchwatch's director, Nick Tolson, said eight clergy had been murdered - all in knife attacks - since 1996.
I'd be very surprised if any of those were terrorist incidents. From what I remember, some were by people with mental health problems, known to the clergy, that they were trying to help. Others may have occurred during burglaries - not that I can recall any such incidents.
One recalls - sadly - the murder of Taize's Brother Roger.
Our church, in common with other Nonconformist churches, is not generally open (though it can be looked into through glass doors during the day). There is no tradition of "people popping in" to pray, and I in particular am worried by the possibility of vandalism, robbery or fire (there have been a couple of incidents of such nearby).
This issue has been a bone of contention, as some would like the church to be open all the time and others are dead against it. We did used to open at lunchtime, with church members on duty. However these were more often regarded by visitors as "policemen" than "welcomers". (They also got very cold in winter!)
[ 01. September 2016, 13:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I think the odds of paramilitary attack are vanishingly small. (What -for- would you attack?) Far, far more likely is petty vandalism, damage by drunk or drugged-up persons, or teenagers sneaking in to have sex.
I have drifted in and out of my church at all hours (Altar Guild). We do lock up but everybody and his younger brother seems to have a key. My chief worry is not murder or mayhem but theft of the wine or vessels. You'd have to be desperate to get drunk on altar wine, but it's definitely a possibility. And the sterling silver flagons are worth a pretty penny.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
My current shack had a long history of being open 24/7. I am told it was not surprising to come in for early service and find someone praying, or sleeping, or putting together a cereal and milk breakfast in the undercroft (rest room down the hall open as well, only office locked). This is small city USA, and the building is rather remote from town center, with no neighbors visible. The parish was incredibly proud they could offer such hospitality.
And then, a teenage, shall we say, “extended the hospitality to intimate friends.” This individual knew where the key to the sacristy was kept hidden, accessed the wine cupboard and “entertained” by candlelight. It was with great sadness that parishioners reached the decision to lock the doors, not for safety’s sake, but for the reputation of the individual in question: to save them from malicious gossip or false accusation. There is still sadness about the decision.
We live in an unsafe world -- and it was ever such I think. Might any of us be martyred for the faith? I suppose so. Might our silver be stolen? Certainly. But I trust it is all in God’s good hands, that I and those I love will be gathered into God’s loving arms, despite whatever route it is that brought us to death. Jesus showed us that path, and I am filled with joy and trembling to follow it.
By the way, we are talking about unlocked doors again. It seems achingly appropriate to do so, to show our faith in a God who loves all creation.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
An A-C parish in a Southern USA city had from its foundation always been very, very poor, scrabbling every month to pay the priest and frequently not able to do so. (He had to have additional secular employment.)
Quite unexpectedly the parish received a LARGE bequest (several million dollars) from a person unknown to either priest, wardens or vestrymen. Part of the gift stated that it was in appreciation for 'the church is always open for prayer.' And so it was, 24/7. The only security arrangement was an alarm which covered the sanctuary area and the sacristy. And the door to the organ gallery was locked.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Baker
Shipmate
# 18458
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Posted
In 1975, on the day before Thanksgiving(USA) the cathdral church(Episcopal) I now attend was torched by an arsonist who hid in the church, having entered during the day I heard. Only the stone walls were left. The new sanctuary has those walls, but everything inside is new, and I must say it's beautiful. But now there's security, an alarm system at night, and during business hours you buzz in.
The other Episcopal congregation in town was also burned by an arsonist, about ten years ago. They kept one room accessible at all hours, and one homeless guy took advantage of that. They had to build a completely new building. While that was going on a number of local congregations had offered worship space, and they ended up using the sanctuary of the one synagogue in this town. Hey, it's a space specifically designed for public worship, and it wasn't in use on Sunday mornings! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I just visited St. Fidelis Catholic Church, designated as a Minor Basilica by Pope Francis. It's in the tiny Kansas town of Victoria, and at the time it was built, in 1911, it was the largest church building west of the Missisippi River in the United States. A must see if you are crossing the country on I-70, the towers are so tall it can be seen from almost two miles away. The front doors were open and tourists could just wander around inside, admiring the magnificent structure. They probably feel safe as the only strangers are likely going to be friendly ones. I'd hate to think of it being damaged.
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Ad astra per aspera
Posts: 108 | From: Tottering-on-the-Brink | Registered: Aug 2015
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Eutychus
Most British Muslims are brown (or black) skinned. Most live in areas where there are other Muslims. That's not a 'lazy assumption'. (I wouldn't use the word 'ghetto' myself, not least because I live in an area with a high Muslim population, probably not all that far from the church mentioned in my link above.) I'm aware that there are many white and black converts but they're not relevant to the murder in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray, so why would they be in an copy-cat attack in an English village?
BTW, I linked to the article about the vicar's wife in Birmingham not to assert that mosques create terrorism, but to show that in some areas there's been friction between local Muslims and churches. (I should add, however, that interfaith work is ongoing.) The issue is whether or not this friction could at some point lead to terrorist attacks in churches. There's been some concern in the recent past about Islamic extremism in parts of Birmingham, but AFAIK no churches have been attacked by terrorists as a result.
Maybe this local perspective is my downfall, but I must admit I can't see how the 'risk of an attack' in UK churches has increased since the murder of Father Hamel in France. The context here seems rather different to me. But I suppose Mr Tolson is privy to some secret intelligence that he can't reveal, so further speculation is pointless. I agree that all British churches need to consider security these days, but they've been security conscious for a long time.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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