Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Word of the Lord - Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Rather than arguing about what words are used, why not be concerned about the Word you hear?
Then you can go and change the world on the basis of what you've heard.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
ooooh, I hate it, hate it, hate it when one has to say 'THIS is the word of the Lord' after horrible Scripture pericopes. It's a facile identification of the Word of God with Scripture. It's one of the worst liturgical innovations of Paul VI in my book, Why did the CofE have to follow suit when even some very Calvinist reformers were content with 'Here ends the Epistle or Gospel or Reading.' The word of God comes in sundry and varied forms in Scripture itself, but never as a printed text. Hate it.
-------------------- Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Freddy: quote: Originally posted by shamwari: If the OT reading is 1 Samuel 15 then what possible additional "spiritual" meaning can be got out of it except that God told Samuel to "go slay the Amalekites". No amount of 'spiritualising' can get round that!
The "spiritual" meaning would be that God tells us to slay our inner Amalekite, which is some nasty part of ourselves that we would be better off without. quote: Originally posted by shamwari: Unless, of course, the Spirit says that God said no such thing --- in which case hopefully the sermon would make the point.
That's right. The sermon would point out that God would never tell anyone to slay anyone. That in fact the Israelites merely wanted to believe that this was God's will. But that nevertheless God allowed the story to be written the way it was because it can serve as a dramatic way of understanding the issues involved in ridding ourselves of our inner demons.
Saying "Hear the Word of the Lord" emphasizes that these are no ordinary stories, and that they ought to be heard with an ear to their spiritual significance, not their literal injustices.
So the Lord allowed some genuine people to be slaughter so that we could later allegorise their death and apply it to our ridding ourselves of a few vices they too possessed?
-------------------- Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Joesaphat: quote: Originally posted by Freddy: quote: Originally posted by shamwari: If the OT reading is 1 Samuel 15 then what possible additional "spiritual" meaning can be got out of it except that God told Samuel to "go slay the Amalekites". No amount of 'spiritualising' can get round that!
The "spiritual" meaning would be that God tells us to slay our inner Amalekite, which is some nasty part of ourselves that we would be better off without. quote: Originally posted by shamwari: Unless, of course, the Spirit says that God said no such thing --- in which case hopefully the sermon would make the point.
That's right. The sermon would point out that God would never tell anyone to slay anyone. That in fact the Israelites merely wanted to believe that this was God's will. But that nevertheless God allowed the story to be written the way it was because it can serve as a dramatic way of understanding the issues involved in ridding ourselves of our inner demons.
Saying "Hear the Word of the Lord" emphasizes that these are no ordinary stories, and that they ought to be heard with an ear to their spiritual significance, not their literal injustices.
So the Lord allowed some genuine people to be slaughter so that we could later allegorise their death and apply it to our ridding ourselves of a few vices they too possessed?
I think as we allow the Second Person of the Trinity to infiltrate our being and our reading of sacred scripture we slowly glean that the triune God allows humanity the ramifications of its own sinfulness (Romans 1, anybody? Donald Trump, anybody?). Without going too far into a tangent on sclerosis of the spiritual heart, our liturgical pronouncements can reflect that, rumour that.
I and others have mentioned problems with the dull and prosaic "here ends/endeth the first reading /lesson) up-thread. Many have referred to the issues of "and-he-slaughtered-five-thousand-that-day-this-is-the-word-of-the-Lord" but let's emphasize again that if we let our liturgists and worshippers alike (in liturgical traditions, which all traditions are, but that's another thread) grow together in the Spirit then phrases and rites will emerge that express the deep truth that the Word can dwell in us and bear much fruit to God's glory, that the Spirit can speak through words, that our hearts can be quickened with the fires of divinity.
No, that last one hasn't been invented yet, but I'm working on it.
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
It’s worth bearing in mind that “The Word of the Lord” was not intended as a comprehensive response to all possible scripture readings.
It was intended as a response to the readings at mass. On Sundays the revised RC lectionary (a thing of beauty and a joy for ever) does not include the RCL continuous readings. The only OT readings it would apprehend would be those OT readings specifically chosen to relate to the gospel.
The daily lectionary is selective of the OT and unlikely to include any passage too oo er (although I haven’t checked).
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There is no reason at all why responding to the Spirit through the readings is inconsistent with a corporate response.
It would be insulting to suggest otherwise.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
In Morning Prayer today, I read the set passage from 2 Timothy.
"Have nothing to do with stupid and senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels."
I think the Spirit is hinting to stay away from Ship of Fools.
-------------------- Man was made for joy and woe; And when this we rightly know, Thro' the world we safely go.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
In TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada's lectionary, the morning prayer reading is from the Book of Sirach.
I know of one Protestant Anglican who refuses to announce the words "The Word of the Lord" whenever the reading comes from the Apocrypha. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) [ 21. October 2016, 17:56: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
-------------------- It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by venbede: In Morning Prayer today, I read the set passage from 2 Timothy.
"Have nothing to do with stupid and senseless controversies; you know that they breed quarrels."
I think the Spirit is hinting to stay away from Ship of Fools.
Oh, I couldn't possibly agree with that.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Al Eluia
 Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: In TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada's lectionary, the morning prayer reading is from the Book of Sirach.
I know of one Protestant Anglican who refuses to announce the words "The Word of the Lord" whenever the reading comes from the Apocrypha.
I'll do you one better. A couple years ago I attended a memorial service at which one of the readings was a poem by Rainer Maria Rilke. Now, including a non-Biblical reading is fine and Rilke was a great poet. But at the end of the poem the reader dutifully said, "The Word of the Lord," and the congregation dutifully responded, "Thanks be to God." Well, except for me. I thought that was a little bizarre.
-------------------- Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Probably just habit, the way that I always find myself nearly slipping into the Grace at the end of evening meetings, even if they have nothing to do with the church.
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Albertus: Has the trend for The Grace of looking at everyone come your way? The full drill is standing, holding hands, and looking at everyone - for me furtively like an attention-deprived sparrow, and losing track of the words and otherwise feeling idiot.
One priest even ensured we had one palm facing up and one facing down, sagely: 'supporting others as we are supported' or similar. Repeated in successive meetings didn't improve the shine on my Jesus or fellow sparrows.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Albertus: Has the trend for The Grace of looking at everyone come your way? The full drill is standing, holding hands, and looking at everyone - for me furtively like an attention-deprived sparrow, and losing track of the words and otherwise feeling idiot.
I call it the Meerkat Blessing.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Albertus: Has the trend for The Grace of looking at everyone come your way? The full drill is standing, holding hands, and looking at everyone - for me furtively like an attention-deprived sparrow, and losing track of the words and otherwise feeling idiot.
I call it the Meerkat Blessing.
Don't whether to thank you, or no thank you. This image will stay with me. And also with you. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) [ 25. October 2016, 00:09: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Al Eluia: quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: In TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada's lectionary, the morning prayer reading is from the Book of Sirach.
I know of one Protestant Anglican who refuses to announce the words "The Word of the Lord" whenever the reading comes from the Apocrypha.
I'll do you one better. A couple years ago I attended a memorial service at which one of the readings was a poem by Rainer Maria Rilke. Now, including a non-Biblical reading is fine and Rilke was a great poet. But at the end of the poem the reader dutifully said, "The Word of the Lord," and the congregation dutifully responded, "Thanks be to God." Well, except for me. I thought that was a little bizarre.
When I was at seminary and attended a service that featured a poem as one of the readings (It was a special service related to a theme, and not a regular Sunday service), the reader said this after the reading:
"God speaks through prophets and poets. Thanks be to God."
-------------------- It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Albertus: Has the trend for The Grace of looking at everyone come your way? The full drill is standing, holding hands, and looking at everyone - for me furtively like an attention-deprived sparrow, and losing track of the words and otherwise feeling idiot.
One priest even ensured we had one palm facing up and one facing down, sagely: 'supporting others as we are supported' or similar. Repeated in successive meetings didn't improve the shine on my Jesus or fellow sparrows.
No- thank goodness!
-------------------- My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Albertus: Has the trend for The Grace of looking at everyone come your way? The full drill is standing, holding hands, and looking at everyone - for me furtively like an attention-deprived sparrow, and losing track of the words and otherwise feeling idiot.
One priest even ensured we had one palm facing up and one facing down, sagely: 'supporting others as we are supported' or similar. Repeated in successive meetings didn't improve the shine on my Jesus or fellow sparrows.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[edited for scroll lock!] [ 25. October 2016, 16:21: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The Methodists go in for the 'Meerkat blessing'. I quite like it, but it fits in with the sociable aspect of Methodist worship. It wouldn't make so much sense in a more reserved CofE setting.
Also, because it refers to God in the 3rd person I don't strictly think of it as a prayer, and therefore there's no theological reason why the individual needs to look especially 'prayerful' when saying it. Just my opinion.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jengie jon
 Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
A friend long gone to his eternal rest referred to the 'Meerkat Blessing' as the 'Windscreen Wiper Blessing'. If Baptist Trainfan wants to be really URC geeky I can provide his name.
Jengie
-------------------- "To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Al Eluia: quote: Originally posted by Anglican_Brat: In TEC and the Anglican Church of Canada's lectionary, the morning prayer reading is from the Book of Sirach.
I know of one Protestant Anglican who refuses to announce the words "The Word of the Lord" whenever the reading comes from the Apocrypha.
I'll do you one better. A couple years ago I attended a memorial service at which one of the readings was a poem by Rainer Maria Rilke. Now, including a non-Biblical reading is fine and Rilke was a great poet. But at the end of the poem the reader dutifully said, "The Word of the Lord," and the congregation dutifully responded, "Thanks be to God." Well, except for me. I thought that was a little bizarre.
Your response should have been "NOT!"
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
WRT the Grace, I find it's difficult to comply with the hand-holding regime when you're making the sign of the Cross. "Oh sorry, did I just ruin the chummy mood?"
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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