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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Prayer Rooms
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
There is an increasing tendency in some churches to create prayer rooms. These are not little chapels with an altar or focal point where one can kneel in quietude and pray silently but are rather busy places filled with objects and activities designed to help someone to pray.
One might have paper to colour a picture, clay to model, pebbles to hold, a little pathway to follow to a wooden cross, etc, etc.
If there is such a thing as 'learning-styles' these rooms apparently cater to a praying style.
Well, all I can say is that in a previous life must have been a monk because my praying 'style' appears to verge on the monastic in that my prayers consist of reading the Bible and hymns, sitting quietly thinking, and actually saying words to God.
In my charitable moments I might consider that people might find such prayer rooms very helpful, but in my not-so-charitable moments I sometimes consider these adult 'play rooms' to be rather self-indulgent, slightly 'New-Agey' and a total distraction from the real business of prayer which is actually being absorbed mentally in the presence of God and talking to him rather than throwing a pebble in a bucket and pretending that my sins went in with it.
Am I the only one?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
So long as there is also access to a side chapel with an altar I see no particular harm. Not everyone has to pray like me just as not everyone has to worship like me.
[ 23. October 2016, 14:12: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Lincoln Imp
Apprentice
# 17123
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
(...) in my not-so-charitable moments I sometimes consider these adult 'play rooms' to be rather self-indulgent, slightly 'New-Agey' and a total distraction from the real business of prayer which is actually being absorbed mentally in the presence of God and talking to him (...)
According to this reasoning all the monks and nuns who copied and illuminated our most treasured manuscripts were self-indulgent & New Agey and totally distracted from the real buisiness of God. An interesting thought.
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There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds. (Tennyson)
Posts: 30 | Registered: May 2012
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
According to this reasoning all the monks and nuns who copied and illuminated our most treasured manuscripts were self-indulgent & New Agey and totally distracted from the real business of God. An interesting thought.
Not sure I agree with that. When monks copied manuscripts, it was only incidental if they happened to be praying at the same time. Primarily, that was work. It was part of how monasteries earned their keep, just as they might have done by farming, making liqueurs or if convents, making altar bread.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
There is an increasing tendency in some churches to create prayer rooms. These are not little chapels with an altar or focal point where one can kneel in quietude and pray silently but are rather busy places filled with objects and activities designed to help someone to pray.
I have encountered a number of rooms like this, but I wouldn't describe any as "busy" places. Active engagement and busy are not the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln Imp:
According to this reasoning all the monks and nuns who copied and illuminated our most treasured manuscripts were self-indulgent & New Agey and totally distracted from the real business of God. An interesting thought.
Not sure I agree with that. When monks copied manuscripts, it was only incidental if they happened to be praying at the same time. Primarily, that was work.
Not at all. The connection between and complementary nature of prayer and work (ora et labora) was and is fundamental to Benedictine monasticism. Separating the two into separate spheres is alien to that understanding.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I have installed temporary prayer paths such as you describe for people to use during Advent and Lent. As prayer is a two way conversation speaking to God as well as listening to God, for some people the listening seems to be enhanced when engaged in an activity. The feed back from many has been very positive, with requests for doing it again next year. I have been asked to place prayer paths in a number of different places of worship. The idea came to me when I was working with people who were learning to read as adults. We found that many of the people learned more easily when they were moving rather then sitting still. So we had them touch flash cards, move them in some sort of activity. I then though perhaps for some people praying with movement and activity might prove helpful, such as some people pray while walking a labyrinth and the success of the prayer paths I have created tells me it does. I would guess for some this would not be helpful and thus they would choose not to take part, or perhaps in doing so they might be surprised. As my granny used to tell me, "There is no wrong or right way to pray."
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Mudfrog: quote:
In my charitable moments I might consider that people might find such prayer rooms very helpful, but in my not-so-charitable moments I sometimes consider these adult 'play rooms' to be rather self-indulgent, slightly 'New-Agey' and a total distraction from the real business of prayer which is actually being absorbed mentally in the presence of God and talking to him rather than throwing a pebble in a bucket and pretending that my sins went in with it.
Am I the only one?
How are you so sure of what is or isn't going on between them and God in such a setting?
You might find solace in quiet internal prayer. Someone else might find that engaging senses like touch and smell and even taste might lead them to discerning God's presence. Just like there are different modes of learning, I imagine there are different modes of prayer.
Go ahead and have your prayer life, and let others have theirs. Preferably without mutterings about "self-indulgence" and "total distraction from the real business of prayer". Or other versions of "Thank God I am not like some pray-ers who draw pictures, throw pebbles in buckets, or walk labyrinths. No, I pray quietly and decently. Can someone lead me to a good closet with a kneeler and a book stand?"
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Lyda*Rose, well said.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
]Not at all. The connection between and complementary nature of prayer and work (ora et labora) was and is fundamental to Benedictine monasticism. Separating the two into separate spheres is alien to that understanding.
Precisely. Ora et labora. Not ora est labora.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
You might find solace in quiet internal prayer. Someone else might find that engaging senses like touch and smell and even taste might lead them to discerning God's presence. Just like there are different modes of learning, I imagine there are different modes of prayer.
All of which is fine, providing that it does not destroy stillness for those who need it. See the Quiet Room for a discussion of stillness, and the crucial difference between that and silence. It is possible to have either without the other, but for me, prayer without stillness is impossible, and stillness is easily destroyed.
I suppose this does not mean that the needs of those who need to pray through activities have to be sacrificed for those who need stillness. It's simply a matter of nailing the constant over-easy assumption that a thousand flowers can always bloom. They can't because many, as in this case, are mutually fatal.
[ 26. October 2016, 07:10: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I am only accustomed to prayer rooms as being those set aside at airports, hospitals and so forth. These have all been quiet spaces, non-denominational, indeed non-faith specific. Is the room described by Mudfrog the only such space at the church where he saw it? Is there also a traditional style chapel available, or the main nave remaining open? What is the tradition of that church?
[ 26. October 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I am only accustomed to prayer rooms as being those set aside at airports, hospitals and so forth. These have all been quiet spaces, non-denominational, indeed non-faith specific.
I used to work at a place where they had a "multi-faith" prayer room. Complete with a curtain down the middle, a big arrow on the floor pointing east and a collection of prayer mats. I always felt uncomfortable going there to pray (not helped by the fact that the senior management desk were just outside, so you would be observed going in and out.)
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
Although not strictly a 'prayer room', a Godly Play room has many of the characteristics described in the OP.
One of the challenges when training adults in the Godly Play method, is that they have been conditioned to think in particular ways. For example, they think a finished 'product' is evidence that learning has taken place, or that play requires rules and supervision. They assume children need to be praised a lot. And so on. They are often surprised, some insurmountably so, to discover that a child's spiritual work may involve running their fingers through sand, or building a tower out of blocks and knocking it over, or scribbling on paper. Or it might involve writing a poem they never show anyone, or reading the same book over and over again. It can be very difficult for them to see that, when children are given the choice of their own 'work', and not criticised for their choices, they rapidly begin to discover what is their 'right' way to pray, and do so without shame or self-consciousness.
That is all a roundabout way of saying that the things we consider 'prayerful' or 'spiritual' are as much a result of conditioning as anything. I think its good to have a range of ways to (as we say in Godly Play) come close to God and allow God to come close to you.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Does that matter? The Word is made Flesh whatever the label. Anyway, many ecumenical settings have a shared tabernacle, with two sections separated by glass (calling for a notice, 'in case of Christian unity, break the glass.)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does that matter? The Word is made Flesh whatever the label. Anyway, many ecumenical settings have a shared tabernacle, with two sections separated by glass (calling for a notice, 'in case of Christian unity, break the glass.)
Lovely idea. That gets a ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
But wouldn't a traditional and loyal RC be obliged to believe that CofE reserved sacraments were not truly the body and blood of Christ, but just bread and wine?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Anyone could cover any symbols that made them uncomfortable.
By multi-faith, most people here would mean Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindi, Taoist and so forth. Your use seems to be what we would call multi-denominational.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does that matter? The Word is made Flesh whatever the label. Anyway, many ecumenical settings have a shared tabernacle, with two sections separated by glass (calling for a notice, 'in case of Christian unity, break the glass.)
Lovely idea. That gets a
But wouldn't a traditional and loyal RC be obliged to believe that CofE reserved sacraments were not truly the body and blood of Christ, but just bread and wine?
That's the reason for a shared tabernacle. I can't believe that if RCs used the prayer room they wouldn't ensure they had the 'real thing' (and whatever they believed about Anglican sacraments, I'm sure canon law would insist on it.)
I don't know for sure about Leo's prayer room, but there I can see no reason why it couldn't be completely multi-faith yet incorporate a Christian tabernacle.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
For what it's worth, whenever I've seen a sign to "Prayer Room" in hospitals or whatever it means a room for Muslims.
And as a Salvationist, as I believe Mudfrog is, he must be used to praying by marching up and down, carrying banners, playing the trombone or whatever.
And those of us whose main weekly act of worship is communal liturgy are well used to praying by doing things.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Anyone could cover any symbols that made them uncomfortable.
By multi-faith, most people here would mean Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindi, Taoist and so forth. Your use seems to be what we would call multi-denominational.
No - there was a Qur'an, prayer shawls etc.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Does that matter? The Word is made Flesh whatever the label. Anyway, many ecumenical settings have a shared tabernacle, with two sections separated by glass (calling for a notice, 'in case of Christian unity, break the glass.)
Lovely idea. That gets a
But wouldn't a traditional and loyal RC be obliged to believe that CofE reserved sacraments were not truly the body and blood of Christ, but just bread and wine?
That's the reason for a shared tabernacle. I can't believe that if RCs used the prayer room they wouldn't ensure they had the 'real thing' (and whatever they believed about Anglican sacraments, I'm sure canon law would insist on it.)
I don't know for sure about Leo's prayer room, but there I can see no reason why it couldn't be completely multi-faith yet incorporate a Christian tabernacle.
I was unsure if here as an 'Anglican reserved sacrament' - in 2 months I saw no chaplain nor was offered Holy Communion or anointing.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Leo, thanks for that - I have never seen a tabernacle (or indeed any other faith-specific item) in a prayer room here at hospitals or airports. They are basically simply furnished rooms with limited decoration, perhaps a vase or 2 of flowers, not much more, where those who wish can go for times of personal prayer and reflection.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
in 2 months I saw no chaplain nor was offered Holy Communion or anointing.
If you've been in hospital for that time with no sacramental ministry, that's terrible. I hope your own church can look after you.
I've been in four hospitals over the last few years and I ask for communion if I'm going to be in over Sunday.
It's the one thing that makes me want to be an RC. I wouldn't have to make a fuss and appear pious and self conscious to receive Christian ministry.
[ 29. October 2016, 06:52: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Maybe it was felt by whoever provided the facility that anyone who was willing to use a multi-faith prayer room was unlikely to be particular about 'details' like these.
But of course nothing is that simple when it comes to religion.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
in 2 months I saw no chaplain nor was offered Holy Communion or anointing.
If you've been in hospital for that time with no sacramental ministry, that's terrible. I hope your own church can look after you.
It is now that I am home. I disagree with clerrgy undercutting chaplains by bringing in the sacraments so I relied on the chaplain and was let down.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Could've asked your Vicar to send you a 'Host by post' as one elderly and eccentric Surrey vicar was reputed to do for his hospitalised parishioners when I was around there c 25 years ago.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I have not come across a prayer room such as Mudfrog describes in the OP, but I can imagine it. As Graven Image says, many may find such a set up helpful. If it seems to answer a common need, it is an totally appropriate thing for a church to do. It may also draw in those for whom church worship is embarrassing or unconvincing.
There is a danger though that it will give the impression that the church itself has no confidence and is itself embarrassed or unconvinced.
And what Mudfrog describes need not be provided by a Christian community. A Christian community shouldn’t only be offering specifically Christian services, but what they can offer which nobody else can is based on the hope given us in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ.
But since even regular churchgoers are often embarrassed by the subject of personal prayer, innovative ways to encourage prayer and contemplation are only to be encouraged.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Yes, but a service with set words, some communal singing, a talk and a symbolic meal need not be Christian and provided by the Church either.
In other words, Mudfrog does not really tell us enough to tell although "a path leading to a cross" does not seem to me to fit with worship outside of a Christian context.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Well, yes, it would be a shame to be revering the other lot's Jesus by mistake, wouldn't it?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Well, yes, it would be a shame to be revering the other lot's Jesus by mistake, wouldn't it?
Why would it be a mistake?
Not only to be revered, but to be received.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Well, yes, it would be a shame to be revering the other lot's Jesus by mistake, wouldn't it?
That wasn't the point. I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
So no communion for 9 weeks.
[ 01. November 2016, 16:04: Message edited by: leo ]
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
[/QB]
Who would forbid it? The RC church or the Anglican church?
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
In reply to the OP (rather than a side issue); I have used them to enable people, like myself, who have no/little inherited relious background to pray. Sand, white boards to tell of what you feel sorry and guilty about that you wipe clean afterwards allow a person to interact with the divine as well as a well delivered silent prayer and. Post-its or labels with things to pray for allow people to think way beyond their own situations and allow empathy for "others". Low lights and a note with a passage also allow people to reflect on the divine in awe and wonder and all these things allow people who are culturally sepereated from the traditional church to own their faith rather than to be colonised by something that is rather alien to them.
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Well, yes, it would be a shame to be revering the other lot's Jesus by mistake, wouldn't it?
That wasn't the point. I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
So no communion for 9 weeks.
You could have left a note for whoever was in charge of delivering the bread and the wine asking about their provenance.
I'd assume that since they were left unmonitored they were probably from some denomination that was fairly unfussy about who would use them.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
Who would forbid it? The RC church or the Anglican church? [/QB]
The RCC
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
When I was a multi faith quiet room, of which I approve in principle, but it is laid out like an old folks’ day room. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved but I don’t know if it is RC, Anglican or what.
Well, yes, it would be a shame to be revering the other lot's Jesus by mistake, wouldn't it?
That wasn't the point. I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
So no communion for 9 weeks.
You could have left a note
I did - no reply.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I hope you've kicked up a stink with both the hospital trust and the appropriate Diocesan Bishop about your neglect in hospital.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wanted to know whether I was allowed to receive - would not be allowed to receive RC.
Who would forbid it? The RC church or the Anglican church?
The RCC
Given that, as best I recall, you affirm the RC teaching about the Eucharist and the presence of Christ, wouldn't this have fallen under the canon law provision for communion of non-Catholics who affirm the Church's teaching and are unable to receive communion from a priest/minister of their own church?
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There was an Anglican chaplain so there should have been no difficulty in leo receiving communion regularly. And an RC chaplain would understandably not wish to appear to undermine their Anglican colleague.
Since after a week, the chaplain appeared indifferent, I would have got in contact with my parish. Blow respecting the chaplain's feelings. I was in serious danger and needed the sacraments.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
In reply to the OP
Low lights and a note with a passage also allow people to reflect on the divine in awe and wonder
I’d call what you describe highly traditional. At least in catholic tradition.
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
and all these things allow people who are culturally sepereated from the traditional church to own their faith rather than to be colonised by something that is rather alien to them.
Rather than colonising them, it may be offering them the chance to explore a beautiful, well-trod and awe inspiring landscape with which they are unfamiliar.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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DonLogan2
Shipmate
# 15608
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
In reply to the OP
Low lights and a note with a passage also allow people to reflect on the divine in awe and wonder
I’d call what you describe highly traditional. At least in catholic tradition.
quote:
Originally posted by DonLogan2:
and all these things allow people who are culturally sepereated from the traditional church to own their faith rather than to be colonised by something that is rather alien to them.
Rather than colonising them, it may be offering them the chance to explore a beautiful, well-trod and awe inspiring landscape with which they are unfamiliar.
Re-quote 1; I agree, but done in a way that meets in the middle of the bridge that divides the two cultures.
Re-2; True, however if we are to grow as a church and in disciples, culture can be a barrier. Post christendom society is very wary of organisations and have preconceived ideas of them and it takes a lot for someone to feel they have to leave their cultural distinctiveness at the door. Ask anyone who has no/little knowledge of (christian) faith to pray and they usually close eyes and clasp hands and myself and others I have talked to really do not know what they are supposed to do next. Allowing people to explore their spirituality (and faith) at their own pace shows an inclusive church model that is centered towards the divine.
All IMHO and by observations and conversations with unchurched people who are now, happily, churched (Thanks also to a couple of authors and Prayer spaces in Schools).
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“I have of late, but wherefore I know not, lost all my mirth... "
Posts: 359 | From: the very depths | Registered: Apr 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There was an Anglican chaplain so there should have been no difficulty in leo receiving communion regularly.
Ah, I missed that part somehow. Thanks.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm having difficulty understanding why dropping a pebble in a bucket and 'pretending your sins are dropping in their with it' differs substantially from kneeling at a penitential form in a Salvationist Citadel and praying 'the Sinner's Prayer' ...
4
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I hope you've kicked up a stink with both the hospital trust and the appropriate Diocesan Bishop about your neglect in hospital.
I've done the former but am reluctant to do the latter.
I may be misunderstanding the hierarchy here, but do not hospital chaplains at least require the Diocesan's licence? So perhaps a 'this is my experience, you ought to know about this, there may be some reason or mitigating circumstance but all the same even if there is i think you should do something to ensure that people are not left unministered to' letter might be helpful?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm having difficulty understanding why dropping a pebble in a bucket and 'pretending your sins are dropping in their with it' differs substantially from kneeling at a penitential form in a Salvationist Citadel and praying 'the Sinner's Prayer' ...
Other than that, I find myself meeting Mudfrog half way. I'm not keen on crayons and paper in 'prayer 'room' and such. I do like labyrinths though.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I may be misunderstanding the hierarchy here, but do not hospital chaplains at least require the Diocesan's licence? ...
I think they do, but it's my impression that that is broadly only confirmation that they qualified to operate. I think they are under the direction of the hospital that appoints and pays them, not the diocese. So if the hospital doesn't make an effective appointment, or e.g. tries to economise by notionally borrowing occasional support off another hospital's chaplaincy, or if the administrators don't pass messages on or engage effectively with whoever the hospital has appointed, I suspect there won't be very much the diocese can do about it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
We know from the case of the Revd Jeremy Pemberton (it must be in Dead Horses) that chaplaincy appointments depend on episcopal agreement. So whatever the legal/ financial arrangements about NHS chaplaincies in general, or this one in particular. the bishop surely has some responsibility for seeing that Anglican patients are properly ministered to. De facto if not de jure, the Bishop delegates his/her pastoral role to the chaplain, in the same way as to every parish priest. So the Bishop ought to be informed if (through the absence, inefficiency, overwork or simple oversight) the chaplain is not fulfilling that role. And the Bishop ought to act if that is the case.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Thank you, Angloid. That is exactly what I meant.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I don't think I've said but I hope it was obvious, but to be clear...
I am very, very sorry leo was in hospital for nine weeks. Horrible in every was for him. I hope now he is out he is on the way to recovery or at least feeling better.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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