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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
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Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
start to present actual evidence and I will start to listen.
Why does the testimony of the overwhelming majority of people who work with him NOT count as evidence?
Doublethink may not be persuaded, but I am.
I doubt you were persuaded, in that I don't believe you ever thought Corbyn had a viable policy platform or was a viable political leader.
Out of interest, have you seen the Vice News profile of Jeremy Corbyn?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Because that number didn't support him in the first place, largely because he is left wing,
Bulverism. Shall I respond by saying that Momentum's criticism of the PLP is worthless because they don't like the PLP because it's right-wing?
quote:
and Thangham is the first individual to attempt to put forward any specific evidence re competence
My experience of incompetent people is that their incompetence is usually manifest in a series of little screwups, each of which would be venial in itself. But the allegations which I am seeing in different bits of the Press include:
1. Going on holiday at the crucial point of the referendum campaign
2. Attacking austerity without having any specific anti-austerity policies (see earlier comments about people's quantitative easing)
3. Going silent at moments of crisis, creating a McDonnell-shaped void
4. Not discussing decisions outside the clique of people who agree with him
5. Not meeting deadlines for press releases
6. Sitting on policy decisions
7. Allowing Mr McDonnell to run his own parallel health policy without reference to the Shadow Health Secretary
8. Blocking access to facilities for Labour Remain campaigners
9. I think you will find Ms Debbonaire's complaints are rather more serious than your summary of them
10. Thinking that having Trident submarines without Trident missiles is a sensible policy
11. Appointing Seamas Milne as press officer
12. Having to apologise to the Israeli ambassador and the Chief Rabbi after welcoming the results of a review of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party.
I'm not posting links because I'm too lazy, but what would be the point? If Labour MPs are lying about his competence they could be lying about all of the above as well.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
13. People on doorsteps say Mr Corbyn is not a convincing leader
14. Mr McDonnell's strange shenanigans with the Fiscal Compact
15. If he can't negotiate with the PLP, how will he negotiate with Mr Putin?
16. Rewriting of history regarding IRA support
17. Rewriting of history regarding attempt to undermine Mr Kinnock.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
posted by Frankly Mr Dear quote:
I will be a member of Labour, and will vote Labour, whoever is in charge.
That is the attitude which has contributed to the situation the party is in now with Mr Corbyn.
If a paid-up, life-long Conservative disagrees with the party leader and policies espoused by them, then at General Election time they either vote for someone else or they stay at home. In stark contrast for decades we've had the situation where there is a large rump of Labour members who'll vote for anyone and anything just so long as someone has remembered to stick a Labour rosette on it.
This unthinking, knee-jerk reaction is what has contributed to the vicious struggle now being played out for the edification of the general public. True, other parties may have their own unthinking ballot-box sheep, but only Labour has such a vast majority who'll sleep-walk their way to the ballot box regardless. They do the party no favours with their mindless behaviour - all it does is encourage takeovers by people on the margins to come into the party and turn it into what they want, because by-and-large if they created their own party to reflect their views they'd have no chance of success, so they use Labour sheep instead.
Wolves in sheep's clothing are still wolves.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by L'organist:
quote:
If a paid-up, life-long Conservative disagrees with the party leader and policies espoused by them, then at General Election time they either vote for someone else or they stay at home. In stark contrast for decades we've had the situation where there is a large rump of Labour members who'll vote for anyone and anything just so long as someone has remembered to stick a Labour rosette on it.
I grew up in Totnes which, between 1955 and 2010 was represented by Mr Ray Mawby and Sir Anthony Steen. Which suggests, rather strongly, that this may not, entirely, be a Labour issue. The whole phenomenon of safe seats is rather a testament to the tendency of a large proportion of the British electorate being willing to vote for the proverbial donkey, as long as it wears a rosette bearing the appropriate logo and colour scheme. The idea that this sort of tribalism is confined to one half of the Labour-Conservative duopoly is for the birds, frankly
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Snags
Utterly socially unrealistic
# 15351
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Posted
Pish and tush l'Organist. I can assure you that "My party right or wrong" is in no way limited to just Labour. There are plenty of folks where I live who will hold their noses at anything and vote Conservative rather than abstain, spoil a paper, or heaven forfend actually vote for a party/candidate who more closely represents their views.
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Vain witterings :-: Vain pretentions :-: The Dog's Blog(locks)
Posts: 1399 | From: just north of That London | Registered: Dec 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If a paid-up, life-long Conservative disagrees with the party leader and policies espoused by them, then at General Election time they either vote for someone else or they stay at home. In stark contrast for decades we've had the situation where there is a large rump of Labour members who'll vote for anyone and anything just so long as someone has remembered to stick a Labour rosette on it.
That's patently untrue. It's widely thought that the tories can count on maybe 30% of the vote, pretty much regardless of leader or policies, while Labour can count on maybe 25%. There are plenty of seats where a bonobo with a blue rosette pinned to its arse would get elected. You only have to look at the turnout in safe Labour seats to see how their vote has been hollowed out in recent years.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
Lilian Greenwood has explained in detail why she resigned as Shadow Transport Secretary.
It's worth reading in full and it provides at least one new addition to the list:
19. When Mr Corbyn does finally agree a policy with his Shadow Cabinet, he lets them work hard on it and then announces something completely different to national media.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I just don't believe the resignations weren't planned. The staged timing throughout the day alone is sufficient to make that deeply suspicious. As for the rest of it, Corbyn is clearly used to speaking his mind when asked, and the transition from backbench to leader was always going to be rocky. What Corbyn needs to do when he is re-elected is to read the specific criticisms arising from his inexperience and get some people in his office who can help him with that.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Meanwhile the NEC has covered itself in glory by gerrymandering the leadership vote (new members can't vote); raising the supporters' fee to £25 (expensive for people in poverty), and stopping branches from meeting.
They've been reading too much Brecht, I think, if you don't like your membership, deselect them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Lilian Greenwood has explained in detail why she resigned as Shadow Transport Secretary.
It's worth reading in full and it provides at least one new addition to the list:
19. When Mr Corbyn does finally agree a policy with his Shadow Cabinet, he lets them work hard on it and then announces something completely different to national media.
This might be a 19A or a 20, but this afternoon Mr Corbyn announced that he's going to vote against the government in today's Trident debate, having just argued against formally-adopted Labour Party policy. He also appears to be voting against his own views as the motion before the Commons concerns renewal of the submarines and he had previously argued that they should be (even if the warheads shouldn't).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Meanwhile the NEC has covered itself in glory by gerrymandering the leadership vote (new members can't vote); raising the supporters' fee to £25 (expensive for people in poverty), and stopping branches from meeting.
They've been reading too much Brecht, I think, if you don't like your membership, deselect them.
If the NEC had wanted to nobble Corbyn, there was a surer and more certain method.
One estimate is that something like 10% of the population would have signed up to vote in the Labour leadership election. 10% Labour voters who supported Corbyn. Labour voters who didn't. Lib Dems who wanted a realignment of the left and thought a split in the Labour Party was the way to go. Lib Dems who thought an effective opposition would be in their interests. Tories who wanted an unelectable Labour leader. Tories who thought that an effective opposition was best for the country. UKIP. The SWP. Workers Liberty. The Sparts. The Tankies. The Krankies. The Muslim Brotherhood. The Strict and Particular Baptists. The Order of Dagon. The Royal Order of Antediluvian Buffaloes. The RSPCA. The Elusive Brethren. You name it, they have a view, and for three quid they get to share it with the rest of us.
The Labour Party simply does not have the resources to decide which of these people are on the level. Nor do they have a list of every single member of an alternative political party or Trot grouping. I'm guessing that this was less about gerrymandering the outcome, which, as I said, they could have done quickly and effectively by ruling that Corbyn was obliged to demonstrate that he had sufficient support within the Parliamentary Party (hardly an unreasonable request), and more to do with keeping the election manageable. Of course, if Jeremy had hung around for the rest of the meeting and not buggered off to have his selfie taken with members of The Cult, things might have been different. But Jeremy, is a competent man. So, so are they all competent men...
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I doubt you were persuaded, in that I don't believe you ever thought Corbyn had a viable policy platform or was a viable political leader.
I accept that I've never been a supporter of his. I've said so on these boards back when he was appointed leader. However, the point we're discussing at the moment is a different one. It is how he has revealed himself to be a hopeless politician, unable to win over and carry his own shadow cabinet and MPs
If he can't do that, do you really think the party is likely to be able to persuade floating voters to vote for its candidates while he is in charge?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I wasn't surprised by Lilian Greenwood's explanation. Particularly this summary, following her description of her experiences.
quote:
Jeremy has a new Shadow Cabinet but it’s clear to me that he doesn’t understand collective responsibility and that he can't lead a team, so I'm afraid the same problems will eventually emerge in the new front bench. This is not about policy or ideology, it is about competence.
Popularity does not guarantee competence. It's been too easy to demonise the PLP as a "lynch mob". But it's just not true.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If the NEC had wanted to nobble Corbyn, there was a surer and more certain method.
One estimate is that something like 10% of the population would have signed up to vote in the Labour leadership election. 10% Labour voters who supported Corbyn. .....
The Labour Party simply does not have the resources to decide which of these people are on the level.
The problem with this line of argument is that in removing the vote from people who were members (of which there are 100k plus who have joined since the deadline), they have disenfranchised people who might have paid a lot more than £25 quid (those who signed up for a whole year). Yet £25 quid is deemed as a hurdle sufficient to deter the frivolous.
The idea that the SWP/TUSC would have 100k members who would be willing to join Labour as a form of mass entryism is barmy quite frankly - though this is the line that has been pushed heavily by people like the ever charming John McTernan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTernan#Later_career) on twitter.
Which makes them cack-handed, or they were attempting to shut Corbyn out of the election which doesn't lead to a particularly better conclusion.
[Incidentally, it would appear that this issue was off the agenda, and was floated after Corbyn left the room - so the most you can definitively say is that he was rather naive].
Finally, if someone wants to replace Corbyn, they should absolutely go for it, put up a credible candidate and make an actual case for why they think they would make a better leader. All I see you doing - in common with a lot of the PLP - is making an oblique argument that Corbyn should disappear from existence because he represents some kind of violation of natural order.
[ 18. July 2016, 19:49: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
If the NEC had wanted to nobble Corbyn, there was a surer and more certain method.
One estimate is that something like 10% of the population would have signed up to vote in the Labour leadership election. 10% Labour voters who supported Corbyn. .....
The Labour Party simply does not have the resources to decide which of these people are on the level.
The problem with this line of argument is that in removing the vote from people who were members (of which there are 100k plus who have joined since the deadline), they have disenfranchised people who might have paid a lot more than £25 quid (those who signed up for a whole year). Yet £25 quid is deemed as a hurdle sufficient to deter the frivolous.
The idea that the SWP/TUSC would have 100k members who would be willing to join Labour as a form of mass entryism is barmy quite frankly - though this is the line that has been pushed heavily by people like the ever charming John McTernan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McTernan#Later_career) on twitter.
Which makes them cack-handed, or they were attempting to shut Corbyn out of the election which doesn't lead to a particularly better conclusion.
[Incidentally, it would appear that this issue was off the agenda, and was floated after Corbyn left the room - so the most you can definitively say is that he was rather naive].
Finally, if someone wants to replace Corbyn, they should absolutely go for it, put up a credible candidate and make an actual case for why they think they would make a better leader. All I see you doing - in common with a lot of the PLP - is making an oblique argument that Corbyn should disappear from existence because he represents some kind of violation of natural order.
I think the problem is that it is not only the question as to whether or not the SWP, or whoever, would sign up en masse it's that the world and his wife would sign up en masse.
My more general feeling is that, whilst there is a perfectly good case that the Leader of the Opposition ought to have the support of the majority of the Opposition MPs, there is going to be a scrap and it might as well happen now. Who knows? It might be that the Labour Party in the country decide that having a competent Leader of the Opposition is reasonably important. It might be the case that they vote for Corbyn. If the latter is the case we will, undoubtedly, see the Labour Party burn. The whole thing will make the 1983 General Election look like a walk in the park. If that is what Labour members want, by all means, let them knock themselves out, but don't expect the rest of us to vote for them.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
It might be that the Labour Party in the country decide that having a competent Leader of the Opposition is reasonably important.
You'd think they would. I hope they will. And what the hell is Len McCluskey playing at?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
It is noticeable that despite his notional commitment to grassroots democracy, Mr McCluskey has done nothing to find out if his own members are still in favour of his enthusiastic support for Mr Corbyn.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
It is noticeable that despite his notional commitment to grassroots democracy, Mr McCluskey has done nothing to find out if his own members are still in favour of his enthusiastic support for Mr Corbyn.
His members get their own vote, both for leader of Unite and leader of the Labour Party.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
I am one of his members.
The majority of us no longer support Mr Corbyn. You would think our beloved politburo might want to consider this, given that Mr Corbyn's own argument is based on continuing support from Party members, but apparently the membership's opinions only count if they're yours.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I am one of his members.
The majority of us no longer support Mr Corbyn. You would think our beloved politburo might want to consider this, given that Mr Corbyn's own argument is based on continuing support from Party members, but apparently the membership's opinions only count if they're yours.
The "us" you refer to is not the same as "Party members". It is a subset, albeit a substantial one. Moreover, the evidence is in a poll, and we have seen how inaccurate these can be.
FWIW another election is essential, but while there is a consensus that Corbyn is doing a poor job none of the alternatives are going to worry Mrs May.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I am one of his members.
The majority of us no longer support Mr Corbyn. You would think our beloved politburo might want to consider this, given that Mr Corbyn's own argument is based on continuing support from Party members, but apparently the membership's opinions only count if they're yours.
Except that poll says that most Unite members want Corbyn to stay for the time being, despite the spin the Mirror has put on it. And the poll was taken before it became clear who the alternatives were.
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
Eagle has pulled out, so apparently it's not time for a female leader at all.....
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
Thank goodness there will be only one standing against him. Perhaps Smith will win. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Thank goodness there will be only one standing against him. Perhaps Smith will win.
Nope. Not a chance.
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Then we're doomed ... doomed I say.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Frankly My Dear
Shipmate
# 18072
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Posted
I was beginning to feel sorry for Eagle. In every interview, she looked like she was holding back tears. As a former chess champion, she would have known that, whilst a pawn can sometimes get to the other side of the board and be made into a powerful piece; more often it is simply moved forward to be a sacrifice. I wonder if and when she realised the latter was the case, in her case.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frankly My Dear:
As a former chess champion, she would have known that, whilst a pawn can sometimes get to the other side of the board and be made into a powerful piece; more often it is simply moved forward to be a sacrifice. I wonder if and when she realised the latter was the case, in her case.
It should have been indicative that none of the previous set of candidates showed an interest in challenging.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think it will be an ugly campaign. Owen Smith's line is to build, relentlessly, with further witnesses, on Lilian Greenwood's "this is what Jeremy is like to work with and for". The only issue for anyone from the PLP will be Jeremy's competence to lead.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
In many ways, Corbyn is your Trump.
[ 20. July 2016, 01:43: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In many ways, Corbyn is your Trump.
I understand why people might not like Corbyn, but that is the most ridiculous comparison possible. There is only one current comparison to Trump and that is Boris Johnson. And, as much as it pains me to say, that is even an insult to Boris.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In many ways, Corbyn is your Trump.
I would say he's more our Bernie. Idealistic, inspiring - but just not the skill set for the job.
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Frankly My Dear
Shipmate
# 18072
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Posted
Members will have differing points of view, fine. The important thing is that everyone be gracious enough to get behind whoever the winner is, this time. Actually, we need to 'expand' our thinking on this, and also be willing, come the General Election, to withdraw Labour candidates from a few places in the country; where they stand no chance and so are only really splitting the anti-Tory vote .... But I'm aware that this would require some serious 'pride-swallowing'! ....
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
I think quite a few "anyone but a Tory" voters have voted LibDem in the past, in constituencies where Labour stood no chance. After Nick Clegg rewarded them with the coalition with the Tories they won't be doing that again in a hurry.
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think it will be an ugly campaign. Owen Smith's line is to build, relentlessly, with further witnesses, on Lilian Greenwood's "this is what Jeremy is like to work with and for". The only issue for anyone from the PLP will be Jeremy's competence to lead.
If that is the case, I will sadly vote for Jeremy again. I had hoped for a better candidate - I'm sure there could be candidates better than Jeremy in so many ways - but the one essential is that it should be someone with policies that offer an alternative to the government.
What I would really like is someone interested in politics. Someone who can articulate the ideas and forces at work in society. Someone who can analyse what is happening and show how things could be different. Someone who has a feel for the sort of people we are and might be in the various futures we can choose.
Teresa May's great speech did this when she directly addressed those who are just getting by. It had the flavour of a new teacher who is concerned about those who got low marks in the last test, patronising and ultimately depressing because we know there will be no real help, but making the connection nonetheless.
It appears there is no one left in the Labour Party who can do this. Not even Corbyn, who only sounds refreshing because he is stuck in a 1970s Socialist time loop, but I don't think he is interested by ideas or alternative futures any more, he just wants to keep the pure faith.
I suspect there's no one like this left in the Consevative Party either, and that May's speech was written by a script writer or a novelist or a poet.
It's a difficult task, to marry credible policy with a language and a set of ideas that fit with people, but Farage managed it (stupid policies, but credible) for a minority of people, an angry and highly motivated minority. Benn managed it after he had stopped being an active politician. It's what they are supposed to do, politicians.
The very good ones are dangerous because it is such a powerful skill, but the safe, dull, elected bureaucrats we have now are turning us all against the whole process, and that is disastrous.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I should say that it's not just an alternative to our government. I think this is much bigger. What we the people want, at a visceral level, is an alternative to the supine, neo-liberal, hopelessly national governments we have all over the 'developed' world.
The first bit of big news of our generation is the economic growth of China, India, etc. And it's very good news. But the second big issue is climate change, and that's quite a problem.
The new politics will be internationalist to an extent that makes the EU look like a side show, and it will address people and issues across continents. When I start to see how my future is entangled with that if people in, say, the Philippines, perhaps politics will feel important again.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
hatless
It's fine to articulate the good ends. But what about willing the means? Doesn't that require competence and determination?
I think you might be right that, deep down, Jeremy wants to keep the "pure faith". More important than gaining power, making friends etc.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In many ways, Corbyn is your Trump.
I would say he's more our Bernie. Idealistic, inspiring - but just not the skill set for the job.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In many ways, Corbyn is your Trump.
In one way.
I don't think anyone has ever accused Trump of sticking stubbornly to his convictions at the expense of winning over doubters.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, Corbyn is like Trump because he has the support of the rank and file of Labour but the party elite abandoned him. Corbyn is like Trump because Labour is like the Republican Party. What the party elite believes no longer inspires the base and they can't draw enough votes away from the other party. Both Trump and Corbyn likely represent extreme versions of the way their parties must go to eventually return to power but neither has much chance of becoming president or prime minister due to their weaknesses as politicians. Republican members of congress would treat President Trump the same way Labour MP's are treating Corbyn. Democratic members of congress would have treated President Sanders with more respect.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, Corbyn is like Trump because he has the support of the rank and file of Labour but the party elite abandoned him. Corbyn is like Trump because Labour is like the Republican Party. What the party elite believes no longer inspires the base and they can't draw enough votes away from the other party. Both Trump and Corbyn likely represent extreme versions of the way their parties must go to eventually return to power but neither has much chance of becoming president or prime minister due to their weaknesses as politicians. Republican members of congress would treat President Trump the same way Labour MP's are treating Corbyn. Democratic members of congress would have treated President Sanders with more respect.
The major difference being that Corbyn actually has the interests of the people in his efforts. The only person who Trump has an interest in is himself.
You seriously think that Trump's vision is the way the Republicans should go? Racism, xenophobia, narcissism and the attention span of a gnat with ADHD?
ETA: The rank and file republicans, excluding the racism and xenophobia for the moment, support Trump because he isn't establishment. And that is not a good enough reason.
[ 20. July 2016, 18:07: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
What we the people want, at a visceral level, is an alternative to the supine, neo-liberal, hopelessly national governments we have all over the 'developed' world.
That's undoubtedly what thou the person wanteth (sorry to use such archaic forms but that's the best way I know to make it clear I am speaking to asingle "you"). No doubt you are not alone. But I'd love to know how you know that any significant group -- much less "we, the people" -- wants that.
I'm aware of all sorts of dissatisfaction for all sorts of reasons all over the developed world. I'm not aware that in any but tiny pockets there is agreement with your description of what we have now, much less any agreement with your broad statement as to a desire for an alternative. I might ask what alternative?, because I don't see anything on offer just at the moment, either in your country, or mine, or in any of the dozens and dozens of very different systems and countries that comprise the "developed world".
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
I should say that it's not just an alternative to our government. I think this is much bigger. What we the people want, at a visceral level, is an alternative to the supine, neo-liberal, hopelessly national governments we have all over the 'developed' world.
The first bit of big news of our generation is the economic growth of China, India, etc. And it's very good news. But the second big issue is climate change, and that's quite a problem.
The new politics will be internationalist to an extent that makes the EU look like a side show, and it will address people and issues across continents. When I start to see how my future is entangled with that if people in, say, the Philippines, perhaps politics will feel important again.
I think your first para is spot on. I feel rather despairing, as it's difficult to see how an alternative to globalization and neo-liberalism will be found. I think Corbyn is expounding classical social democracy, or what used to be called a mixed economy, but whether this is possible, dunno. There has been such a big shift to the right. Well, also a shift to the left, but it's the right-wing who have wealth and power. I laughed when I saw May say that austerity means living within our means - I wonder how she does that? Baked beans on toast tonight for the May family?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by libuddha:
The major difference being that Corbyn actually has the interests of the people in his efforts. The only person who Trump has an interest in is himself.
You seriously think that Trump's vision is the way the Republicans should go? Racism, xenophobia, narcissism and the attention span of a gnat with ADHD?
Economic nationalism, restrictions on border enforcement, less interventionist foreign policy, and rejection of politics based on intersectionality is totally the way the Republican Party should go.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Economic nationalism,
AKA no fucking clue on how economy works.
quote:
restrictions on border enforcement,
My family stole this land, fair and square/snuck in earlier, now piss off.
quote:
less interventionist foreign policy,
We've done fucked the world, now let's hide an hope it goes away. Except the oil, don't fuck with the oil. Oh, and give us our crap cheap.
quote:
and rejection of politics based on intersectionality is totally the way the Republican Party should go.
AKA, fuck off faggots.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I laughed when I saw May say that austerity means living within our means - I wonder how she does that?
She means exactly that. Rich people live within rich people's means and everyone else can bugger off and make do.
[ 20. July 2016, 20:04: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
What we the people want, at a visceral level, is an alternative to the supine, neo-liberal, hopelessly national governments we have all over the 'developed' world.
That's undoubtedly what thou the person wanteth (sorry to use such archaic forms but that's the best way I know to make it clear I am speaking to asingle "you"). No doubt you are not alone. But I'd love to know how you know that any significant group -- much less "we, the people" -- wants that.
I'm aware of all sorts of dissatisfaction for all sorts of reasons all over the developed world. I'm not aware that in any but tiny pockets there is agreement with your description of what we have now, much less any agreement with your broad statement as to a desire for an alternative. I might ask what alternative?, because I don't see anything on offer just at the moment, either in your country, or mine, or in any of the dozens and dozens of very different systems and countries that comprise the "developed world".
John
If you come across 'we the people' again, and it's not in some self-consciously foundational Eighteenth Century document, it's likely to be a sign of someone with their tongue in their cheek, or enjoying the absurdity of the gigantically broad and crude brush with which they are painting, or, as in my case, someone entirely without contact with reality or anything resembling a realistic opinion of themself.
It seems to me that strange things are going on. UK politics has forgotten which way is up. There is not just a disconnection but a mighty canyon between voters and professional politicians (into which populists like Trump and Farage have stepped). The EU is uncertain. There is a new sort of terrorism that has everyone rattled. There are unresolved tensions between cultures. Not all of it entirely new, of course, but this picture seems to be the permanent outlook now. It's like facing a wall.
I'm guessing it's a crisis of the nation state. Most of our problems are international, so no government can begin to address them. We don't know how to do politics at a higher level, hence the neutered UN and the Masonic Lodge vibe of the EU.
It's a guess, but I'm inclined to offer my guesses like a mighty prophet's oracle and see how they go down. Perhaps they'll click with others. Maybe saying it will make it true, who knows?
And the alternative to neo-liberalism? No one knows yet, or even where it will come from. The first step is always finding a good question. The answer will come along.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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