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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Jeremy Corbyn out?
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I do think the patriotism stuff was ill conceived.
It may also go to show Corbyn's media wrangling is not much different from Owen's in terms of 'competence'.
Spot on. And weird too, given his broadcasting experience.
That was my thought as well. I thought that his comments on immigration were ill judged in terms of soundbites but, if he's in favour of reinstating the migration impact fund he's on to something. The stuff about patriotism, OTOH, gave the general impression that he had been told that he was running for the leadership of a party and inadvertently come to the conclusion that he was running for the UKIP gig, rather than the Labour one. If your general case is that you are more competent than the other bloke, being more competent is the main bar you have to clear and it looks like his ankles have just clattered into it.
I don't know if Angela Eagle would have done better but I am increasingly inclined to conclude that when Labour is given a choice between an all right woman and a shit man it unfailingly goes for the the shit man. If the recent Tory leadership election had been held by Labour, I suspect that we would currently be in the middle of a gripping contest between Stephen Crabb and Liam Fox.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Hmmm. Right wing, nationalistic socialism. Sounds a vote winner. What could go wrong?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chamois
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# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
I guess they feel that standing against Corbyn is a futile gesture. You don't ask one of your stars to do that.
If they feel that, why did they start their campaign to force Corbyn to resign in the first place? And with such damaging timing to their own party? This is where we all came in.
The PLP's collective and individual behaviour is just getting weirder and weirder. I know we're entering the "silly season" but this is simply ridiculous. I mean, resigning from the shadow cabinet and then taking over a month to vacate your office? What planet are they on????
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I don't know if Angela Eagle would have done better but I am increasingly inclined to conclude that when Labour is given a choice between an all right woman and a shit man it unfailingly goes for the the shit man. If the recent Tory leadership election had been held by Labour, I suspect that we would currently be in the middle of a gripping contest between Stephen Crabb and Liam Fox.
This rings true. I think Labour has a problem with prejudice of all kinds, which it can't acknowledge or even see because "well, we're the party of, like, equality, aren't we?" Liz Kendall & Yvette Cooper would never have got the gig even if they were dyed-in-the wool lefties with Barbara Castle's pedigree.
Corbyn appointing no women to the top jobs until he literally ran out of men speaks volumes.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. Right wing, nationalistic socialism. Sounds a vote winner. What could go wrong?
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
I guess they feel that standing against Corbyn is a futile gesture. You don't ask one of your stars to do that.
If they feel that, why did they start their campaign to force Corbyn to resign in the first place? And with such damaging timing to their own party? This is where we all came in.
The PLP's collective and individual behaviour is just getting weirder and weirder. I know we're entering the "silly season" but this is simply ridiculous. I mean, resigning from the shadow cabinet and then taking over a month to vacate your office? What planet are they on????
The Labour party have massive problems. Corbyn's supporters repeat time after time how inept almost all Corbyn's MPs are. Imagine selling that on the doorsteps. "Yes we had a lot of totally stupid MPs they may have appeared intelligent and capable but they were less competent than our leader. And anyway we have deselected them and our candidates are now in line with him!"
Whilst the whole coup is looked at through the lens of a conspiracy theory it makes no sense - as is so often the case. Perhaps the PLP should be regarded as a bunch of individuals who acted the way they did for many different reasons but one of the most common was desperation.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Owen Smith making a bit of an ass of himself and Seema Malhotra’s OTT claim were pretty embarrassing. But they don't make Jeremy a good leader nor do they make the PLP actions an attempted coup. Desperate responses are often provoked by desperate circumstances.
I can't see how Jeremy will not be elected as Party Leader again. But Her Majesty's Opposition will remain in deep shit for sometime to come. And absolutely no good will come from putting all the blame on the PLP MPs for this parlous situation.
To avoid the next "longest suicide note in history" (1983 Manifesto) there needs to be a serious debate about what constitutes electability for the Labour Party in the near future. Neither turning into Tory-lite or idealistic hopes that we can turn a lot of folks around to thinking "our way" will do. Nor will ignoring our continuing ability to make a pig's breakfast of our hopes through lack of media savvy.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. Right wing, nationalistic socialism. Sounds a vote winner.
Well, nationalistic socialism won 56 out of 59 seats in Scotland ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
FWIW I didn't think Mr Smith said anything technically incorrect about patriotism but patriotism is definitely a 'show not tell' - if he wants to present himself as the patriotic candidate he should wrap himself in Draig Goch rugby scarves at the Millennium Stadium and/or show off his royal tea-towel collection. As it stands, he sounds like he wants to outflank both UKIP and Plaid Cymru without having any plan for how to do so.
Still think he's better than Mr Corbyn though ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
To avoid the next "longest suicide note in history" (1983 Manifesto) there needs to be a serious debate about what constitutes electability for the Labour Party in the near future. Neither turning into Tory-lite or idealistic hopes that we can turn a lot of folks around to thinking "our way" will do. Nor will ignoring our continuing ability to make a pig's breakfast of our hopes through lack of media savvy.
That's not going to happen, though is it. When Corbyn renews The Mandate both he, and his supporters, are going to take it as vindication. PLP out of touch with ordinary members, will be the line, the people have spoken. Any suggestion of compromise with the electorate will be roundly denounced as "Tory Lite", as you so eloquently put it, you will have a lame duck Leader of the Opposition supported by a handful of cronies augmented by a few more additions to Core Group Jellyfish, civil war in the Parliamentary Party and deselection battles in the constituencies - doubtless conducted with all the fraternal courtesy that characterised the reaction to Angela Eagle's decision to stand. There probably won't be an SDP Mark II, but enough Labour MPs will stand as independents or defect to the Lib Dems to either split the vote or defeat the official Labour candidate. This is the point in the electoral cycle when people have noticed the government enough to dislike it but not the opposition enough which is why, at this point, Ed Miliband had a reasonably good lead in the polls. Labour are currently 21 points behind.
Imagine how that stacks up when Mrs May calls an election and the electorate are asked to seriously put into number 10 Downing Street a man who is manifestly unfit for the job and who lacks the support of his Parliamentary Party. Academics will be asked into television studios to pontificate on the constitutional implications and will almost invariably conclude, with a wintry smile, that the whole question is entirely hypothetical given the Conservative lead in the polls. The press coverage of the Opposition will make their treatment of Mr Miliband look sympathetic. Every incautious public utterance of Mr Corbyn's during his Parliamentary career will be pored over. (Parenthetically, given the number of hostages to fortune out in the public domain, is there anything in a file, somewhere in the Home Office, which is officially confidential but which somehow finds its way into the hands of a sympathetic journalist?) A manifesto will be produced, torn to shreds on the grounds of its economic illiteracy whilst candidates and MPs announce that if elected they will not feel bound by its provisions. The Tories will canter to their greatest election victory since 1983, possibly since 1931. Mrs May will doubtless, on the steps of 10 Downing Street, say something withering about *her* mandate.
The only calculation she needs to make is does she move swiftly, and gain her own democratic mandate for the turbulent times ahead or does she get on with things and allow the Labour Party to subject itself to another four years of this before finally putting it out of its misery.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
To avoid the next "longest suicide note in history" (1983 Manifesto) there needs to be a serious debate about what constitutes electability for the Labour Party in the near future. Neither turning into Tory-lite or idealistic hopes that we can turn a lot of folks around to thinking "our way" will do. Nor will ignoring our continuing ability to make a pig's breakfast of our hopes through lack of media savvy.
That's not going to happen, though is it.
It will happen. Probably later, rather than sooner. I agree that "sooner" doesn't look very likely.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
To avoid the next "longest suicide note in history" (1983 Manifesto) there needs to be a serious debate about what constitutes electability for the Labour Party in the near future. Neither turning into Tory-lite or idealistic hopes that we can turn a lot of folks around to thinking "our way" will do. Nor will ignoring our continuing ability to make a pig's breakfast of our hopes through lack of media savvy.
That's not going to happen, though is it.
It will happen. Probably later, rather than sooner. I agree that "sooner" doesn't look very likely.
I'm not sure that the Labour party is capable of having a serious debate any more. The whole atmosphere is too toxic, too many things have been said on both sides that can never be unsaid.
As Callan says, recent polls have been a horror show for Labour. This provides ammunition for both sides in the civil war; the PLP will say it demonstrates JC's unelectability, the Corbynistas will say it's the PLP's fault for splitting the party. Theresa May must be coming under pressure from some quarters to call an Autumn election, although the actual mechanics of that may be tricky.
Speaking for myself, I now don't care whether Corbyn or the Owen bloke (can't remember his name and can't be arsed to look it up, not a good sign) leads the pathetic rump of Labour. I won't be voting, in fact I'm rapidly losing interest in Labour politics which would have been unthinkable a year ago. My trade union emailed me yesterday to inform me that I'm still on the affiliated supporters list, I almost replied to say "take me off it."
May is a canny operator who will finesse Brexit as best she can to minimise the damage to country and party. She will also talk up the "one nation" stuff enough to keep centrist voters on board, and the Tories are in power for a generation. I personally will be all right, heading towards retirement in a secure occupation, but I am filled with foreboding about what the next generation will inherit, economically and politically. Perhaps the aptly-named Mrs May can engineer a soft landing, but there are all manner of troubles waiting down the road we've chosen to follow.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
The Labour party have massive problems.
You never posted a truer word. The Labour MPs (whether supporters of Corbyn or not) seem to be acting like lemmings, racing headlong over a cliff.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
Posts: 978 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
Very much agree with Barnabus and Ricardus. Callan may well be right - sadly. And totally understand Rocinante's position.
The question of competence is interesting. For the left anyone who does anything that could be taken the wrong way is a sign of incompetence. Meanwhile Theresa May can appoint Boris and is still regarded as a safe pair of hands.
Competence means many things things but building a team that knows what it is doing, is good at getting things done and is going in the same direction seems to be at the heart of why the Tories are one of the most successful political parties of the last 100 years in the western world.
Meanwhile the left looks to slag off anyone who doesn't totally agree with them even if the level of agreement is above 90%.
And then it wonders why there hasn't been an out and out socialist government in the last 60 years.
[ 27. July 2016, 10:50: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hmmm. Right wing, nationalistic socialism. Sounds a vote winner.
Well, nationalistic socialism won 56 out of 59 seats in Scotland ...
Two out of three. The SNP is not right-wing by any means.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
Looking at the SNPs economic policies, not to mention their defence policies, I would place them on the Labour left. Not necessarily with Jeremy Corbyn, but closer to him than to Owen Smith who is, AFAICT, aiming at Billericay Man, the target demographic identified by Peter Mandelson.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
Looking at the SNPs economic policies, not to mention their defence policies, I would place them on the Labour left. Not necessarily with Jeremy Corbyn, but closer to him than to Owen Smith who is, AFAICT, aiming at Billericay Man, the target demographic identified by Peter Mandelson.
m8
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
The Labour party have massive problems.
You never posted a truer word. The Labour MPs (whether supporters of Corbyn or not) seem to be acting like lemmings, racing headlong over a cliff.
I could well be misunderstanding you here! However if you are suggesting that PLP 100% at fault and Corbyn 0% to blame, then I disagree. The Labour party's inability to have a balanced (dare I say nuanced) discussion is in my view what is tearing it apart.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
Looking at the SNPs economic policies, not to mention their defence policies, I would place them on the Labour left. Not necessarily with Jeremy Corbyn, but closer to him than to Owen Smith who is, AFAICT, aiming at Billericay Man, the target demographic identified by Peter Mandelson.
m8
Oh dear, but thanks for that. It must be most ill-composed collection of sound bites I have ever seen. All good stuff but light on "How". Not a mention of immigration which, like it or not, is an issue for the angry people he mentions.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
Looking at the SNPs economic policies, not to mention their defence policies, I would place them on the Labour left. Not necessarily with Jeremy Corbyn, but closer to him than to Owen Smith who is, AFAICT, aiming at Billericay Man, the target demographic identified by Peter Mandelson.
m8
Oh dear, but thanks for that. It must be most ill-composed collection of sound bites I have ever seen. All good stuff but light on "How". Not a mention of immigration which, like it or not, is an issue for the angry people he mentions.
I concede that it's not exactly John Bright on the Crimean War, but the idea that it's somehow to the right of Nicola Sturgeon is, frankly, a bit daft.
Anyway, get with the programme Comrade. The official line is now that the traitor and arch-deviationist Smith is ripping off the sainted thoughts of Comrade Jeremy. It's saboteurs like you who would convince the masses that Oceania was once at war with Eastasia were they not entirely loyal to Comrade Jeremy! Thought Criminal! Deviationist! Blairite!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I don't know about that, but I'm sure that neither Corbyn nor Smith is any kind of leader. Then again, the PLP is notoriously difficult to lead. Oh for Denis Healey.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I don't know about that, but I'm sure that neither Corbyn nor Smith is any kind of leader. Then again, the PLP is notoriously difficult to lead. Oh for Denis Healey.
Preach!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
As the offspring of committed Labour voters, and a committed Labour voter myself while I lived in the UK, this all grieves me mightily. And yet, in a weird way, it gives me hope. Perhaps it does all need to be blasted apart, in order for a new order to be formed on the left.
And if that happened, perhaps it could trigger a similar process here, where I haven't felt able to vote Labor (sic) for years.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Oh for Denis Healey.
A head banger!
(Other peoples', obv.)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
Originally posted by Luigi:
quote:
The Labour party's inability to have a balanced (dare I say nuanced) discussion is in my view what is tearing it apart.
I agree with you. The whole lot of them appear to me (a complete outsider) to be acting like over-excited 7 year olds.
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The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
We shouldn't ever forget the role of the media in all this. Whilst I agree that the Labour Party is tearing itself apart ...
I heard a little of Owen Smith this morning. At one point he suggested smashing Teresa May against the wall(or something like that). Some may say this is intemperate langauge but I see it as the cut and thrust of political speaches - I don't particulatrly like it but I accept it. Owen Smith was asked about this (more later) and he gave what I thought was an excellent critique of why he had said it and what he meant / did not mean.
The point I want to make is that a reporter asked him if he did not think the remark was sexist. What? In no way is that sexist - I am sure he would have said it about Cameron or Johnson. This simply illustrates how the media will do all they can to put Labour Party words in a bad light.
When I think about it, I don't actually think that the in-fighting, bad as it is, harmful and self-defeating, is as bad as some are suggesting.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
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Eirenist
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# 13343
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Posted
I think it was the line about 'smashing TM back on her heels' that was thought sexist. The left-wing do love 'smashing' things, don't they?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
And the Tories love heels?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Luigi
Shipmate
# 4031
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Posted
I know Ricardus put up a list on the first page. Well here is my list of evidence of JC’s incompetence!
I used to defend Corbyn much more often than mention my reservations. I wasn’t entirely convinced by him but I thought he needed to be given a chance.
- First his contribution to the EU debate in which he focused almost exclusively workers rights and avoided the economic arguments. I wasn’t impressed at all impressed by the quality of his campaigning.
- Leading on from that was his economic illiteracy. He didn’t seem to understand or make the economic arguments for staying in the EU. Some have responded with 'he let others make those points.' No he didn’t! When he had an opportunity to back up the position of those economists he’s asked to join his economic advisory committee – he directly undermined their position. He was more concerned with attacking George Osborne than making the economic case. The IFS was also implicitly mocked.
- Which leads on to his tribalism. He seems to make little effort to build alliances – even with those who are close to his position. Knowing how to build alliances has probably never been more important.
- Vice News – just about the only media organisation that Corbyn’s team regarded as sympathetic were given access to him and his team. Listening to Vice News voice on the Radio their frustrations with the lack of organisation surrounding his leadership team. They were booked to follow him with an agreed assumption of access. At one point their team was kept waiting for 5 days.
- The comments by other bodies that have sought to work with Corbyn and who should be natural allies – e.g. the economists on his economic advisory panel. At least two of which have expressed their frustration at nothing happening.
- A significant number of MPs detailing how the work of their team had been thwarted (intentionally or by mistake) due to the fact that meetings were constantly cancelled and policy was made up on the hoof which then meant that a significant amount of their work was rendered pointless - a few weeks worth sometimes very frustrating. Lilian Greenwood’s speech detailing this is not exciting but it reflects many other comments by other MPs. This is what makes Angela Eagle's claims believable.
- Policy – the almost total lack of development. He just wants to give out those platitudes and almost never deals with the question of how the transition from where we are to where his aspirations are actually happens.
- Implying that you want to unpick neo-liberal global capitalism and then choosing a chancellor because he is one of your best mates is just not serious politics. Does anyone seriously think John McDonnell is up to the job
- Finally Owen Jones. If someone as obviously sympathetic to Corbyn as Owen is starting to mention the issue of competence, then maybe, it isn’t his strongest suit.
Now if someone says look he is a protester and campaigner, it is hardly surprising that building teams and collective responsibility across a range of people are not likely to be in his skill set. Fair enough, it appears he has hardly ever worked at this sort of thing before in his entire life.
However, when so many of the PLP say it is chaotic in the Labour party, then perhaps we should take them seriously. They have a massive mountain to climb and perhaps they think that they need a vaguely competent leader, particularly in the area of bringing the party together. The ultra-Blairites may never get on board but there are many left-wing MPs who could and should have become part of a properly functioning team.
[ 27. July 2016, 15:11: Message edited by: Luigi ]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
I think it was the line about 'smashing TM back on her heels' that was thought sexist. The left-wing do love 'smashing' things, don't they?
Apparently, it's a Welsh rugby expression hence, understandable in context, but sounded ghastly to those of us who are neither Welsh nor rugby fans. At least Ed M. didn't expect us to pick up obscure references to the Boston Red Sox.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Sarah G
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# 11669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Hold on. You made the claim that Corbyn is deliberately fomenting abuse. Your claim, your burden of proof.
I have already said, twice now, that Ricardus put what I was trying to say far better than I was able to. Therefore, let's run with what he said, please.
So, for the fourth and final* time, you are invited to answer this question:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Well, I think the evidence that a non-secret ballot would lead to threats and intimidation is that Ms Baxter and others said they felt themselves at risk of threats and intimidation. Which suggests that Mr Corbyn either:
a.) Didn't believe her
b.) Didn't care
c.) Did care but thought threats and intimidation were a lesser evil than some other evil that he saw a secret ballot as possessing.
I'd be interested to know which of these options you feel casts Mr Corbyn in a good light?
*I'll avoid a Paxman/Howard tribute.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
I think it was the line about 'smashing TM back on her heels' that was thought sexist. The left-wing do love 'smashing' things, don't they?
Apparently, it's a Welsh rugby expression hence, understandable in context, but sounded ghastly to those of us who are neither Welsh nor rugby fans. At least Ed M. didn't expect us to pick up obscure references to the Boston Red Sox.
It is known in Welsh rugby circles, but to "Give 'em a good shoeing" is more common.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Whilst the whole coup is looked at through the lens of a conspiracy theory it makes no sense - as is so often the case.
The news is that the Labour MPs are now signing up for a course on Machiavellian Plotting taught by Eddard Stark.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
However, when so many of the PLP say it is chaotic in the Labour party, then perhaps we should take them seriously. They have a massive mountain to climb and perhaps they think that they need a vaguely competent leader
Perhaps they should start by demonstrating some competence themselves?
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Luigi:
Whilst the whole coup is looked at through the lens of a conspiracy theory it makes no sense - as is so often the case.
The news is that the Labour MPs are now signing up for a course on Machiavellian Plotting taught by Eddard Stark.
That would make Corbyn Joffrey Baratheon, which seems implausible. Joffrey, for all his faults, could use a crossbow. I doubt that Corbyn has any similarly useful skills. I can see the scene at Foreign Office questions:
The Foreign Secretary: "Right, what ho! Jings! I've signed a trade deal with these Chinese Johnnies. There's been a bit of give and take - we gave and they took, actually, but you know, we are a trading nation and we are making a success out of Brexit! I'd make a Latin pun at this point but it's Quondam thing after another in this job!
A ragged cheer from the Tory benches. Theresa May sits with her head in her hands.
The Shadow Foreign Secretary: Is the right honourable gentleman not aware that this treaty is the most abysmal capitulation since...
Corbyn: Don't worry Emily, I've got this one. TWANG!
Six hours later. Laura Kuesenberg is on the case:
Extraordinary scenes here tonight. The Tories are furious at what they see as an abuse of Parliamentary Privilege by the Leader of the Opposition. I'm told that Michael Gove confronted Corbyn in the lobby, only to be told: "At least I shot him in the front". Meanwhile the latest polling indicates that, for the first time, Corbyn has pulled ahead of the Tories. Sources close to the Labour leadership have told me: "A Lannister always pays his debts". Meanwhile the Speaker of the House has issued a statement: "He who wills the end, wills the means". I'm hearing that shares in Hodder and Stoughton have rocketed, in the meantime, with the announcement that the late Mr Johnson's biography of Shakespeare will not be published. Back to the studio.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
That would make Corbyn Joffrey Baratheon, which seems implausible.
He is more of a Stannis, true.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tomorrows Papers:
...MP's from both sides of the house were united in rebuking Jeremy Corbyn for failing to condemn threats ... son with a crossbow. The threats, allegedly made on a 'Christian' website...
MP XY said "It is disgusting that Corbyn's supporters can openly call for the assa..."
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Tomorrows Papers:
...MP's from both sides of the house were united in rebuking Jeremy Corbyn for failing to condemn threats ... son with a crossbow. The threats, allegedly made on a 'Christian' website...
MP XY said "It is disgusting that Corbyn's supporters can openly call for the assa..."
Dan Hodges: "I THOUGHT THIS WAS A CHRISTIAN WEBSITE!"
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Loving the Game of Thrones tangents! Is it too unkind to suggest that Seumas Milne is a reincarnation of Ramsay Bolton? And Seema Malhotra should take training lessons on vengeance from Sansa Stark (or Arya).
Clearly much fun can be had hereabouts.
Meanwhile the Labour Party "Rome" is burning and we are having difficulty in finding anything which looks much like a fire engine. Or agreeing who should drive it even if we could find one.
Ah well. This dangerous website is developing a useful metaphor for the disaster. Wildfire, anyone? Dragons to the rescue? Peter Dinklage for Party Leader? Oh, shame, he's a US citizen.
[ 27. July 2016, 22:01: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Martin thinks Mr Smith is right-wing. If he is right-wing, then so are the SNP.
Looking at the SNPs economic policies, not to mention their defence policies, I would place them on the Labour left. Not necessarily with Jeremy Corbyn, but closer to him than to Owen Smith who is, AFAICT, aiming at Billericay Man, the target demographic identified by Peter Mandelson.
m8
The discussion is spot on. Smith is far, far worse than Brown, who failed to follow his heart. Ever. Utterly unprincipled. Heartless. Should go far.
And May will call no election next quarter. What on earth for? Whereas Brown should have done of course. And that's not just hindsight. May can't lose in 2020, even with Corbyn and McDonnell retired and a massive, Labour, green rent to buy programme. Not with Smith. Or Eagle. Burnham or Khan, yes.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
The discussion is spot on. Smith is far, far worse than Brown, who failed to follow his heart. Ever. Utterly unprincipled. Heartless. Should go far.
Well, yeah, apart from keeping us out of the Euro, reducing pensioner poverty, reducing child poverty and saving the entire global freaking financial system what did Gordon Brown ever do for us.
If you have a list of equivalent achievements by Mr Corbyn, I would be interested to hear it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Well, yeah, apart from keeping us out of the Euro, reducing pensioner poverty, reducing child poverty and saving the entire global freaking financial system what did Gordon Brown ever do for us.
Steal our pensions?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Well, yeah, apart from keeping us out of the Euro, reducing pensioner poverty, reducing child poverty and saving the entire global freaking financial system what did Gordon Brown ever do for us.
Steal our pensions?
While on the one hand Labour abolished dividend tax relief, which reduced the rate at which pension pots would grow, but on the other they introduced pension tax credits, which are available to all pensioners.
"Steal our pensions" is hyperbole.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
The discussion is spot on. Smith is far, far worse than Brown, who failed to follow his heart. Ever. Utterly unprincipled. Heartless. Should go far.
Well, yeah, apart from keeping us out of the Euro, reducing pensioner poverty, reducing child poverty and saving the entire global freaking financial system what did Gordon Brown ever do for us.
If you have a list of equivalent achievements by Mr Corbyn, I would be interested to hear it.
Jeremy hasn't had his hands on the levers of power so that's meaningless. And my last three staccato sentences are directed at Smith. I accept Gordon achieved all those things, but there was something missing, a failure to communicate, as in calling that Labour supporting woman bigoted. Even if she was. The 2008 recession was nothing to do with him of course. But he totally mishandled the 10p tax rate abolition.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Jeremy hasn't had his hands on the levers of power so that's meaningless.
I wonder why that might be?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Because we only recently got one member, one vote ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Because we only recently got one member, one vote ?
Interesting. That implies you define "the levers of power" as being "power in the Labour party" rather than "power in the country". In parliamentary elections we've had one member one vote since about 1928.
I would have said that you have to win a general election to have power.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
While on the one hand Labour abolished dividend tax relief, which reduced the rate at which pension pots would grow, but on the other they introduced pension tax credits, which are available to all pensioners.
"Steal our pensions" is hyperbole.
He took £5 billion from private pension funds, which directly led to the mass closure of final-salary schemes and a dramatic reduction in the value of a lot of people's pensions. Creating a new scheme that tops up pensions if they're below a certain threshold is hardly compensation for that.
If the Conservatives had done something with such a deleterious effect on pensions you'd be screaming from the rooftops about how evil they were.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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